1. Mediaite
  2. Gossip Cop
  3. Geekosystem
  4. Styleite
  5. SportsGrid
  6. The Mary Sue
  7. The Maude
  8. The Braiser

What's with the name?

Allow us to explain.

Great Hera!

Surprising No One, the CW’s Young Wonder Woman Show Has Been Scrapped

“We did not go forward with it,” says CW president Mark Pedowitz of the previously-in-development Wonder Woman origin series Amazon.

While I think I would actually prefer a solid Wonder Woman television show that would necessarily be primarily about Amazons or their cultural beliefs over a solid Wonder Woman cameo or secondary character appearance in what already promises to be a movie with a lot of things going on, it does not come as a surprise to me that Amazon has been abandoned. After all, Warner Bros. doesn’t want some TV writer stepping all over a character that Zach Snyder‘s going to introduce. Heaven forfend they bolster the mixed blessing of Wonder Woman as a secondary character in a movie whose working title still contains the names of two male superheroes who’ve had multiple franchises based around them by expanding on her character in a television series. I mean, it’s not like that would be an ideal way to introduce her origin story to all the folks they assume would find it confusing.

But Warner Bros. doesn’t at this point have the intestinal fortitude to dive in to an interconnected universe franchise that bridges the small and big screens. Despite moving forward with a the Flash television show, they show no sign that the Arrow universe is connected to the Man of Steel one. Pedowitz still thinks Wonder Woman would work on TV. Maybe, you know, because she already has.

It all depends on the script. We were very careful with Arrow, and we’re being very careful with Flash. These are iconic characters, so we’re going to be very careful with Wonder Woman. You only get one shot before you get bit.

Well, unless you’re The Fantastic Four, who got a sequel after a bust of a first movie. Or if you’re Ghostrider. Or The Flash.

(via The Hollywood Reporter.)

Previously in Amazon

Are you following The Mary Sue on Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, Pinterest, & Google +?

TAGS: | | | | |

  • Anonymous

    But we’re still getting a young Bruce Wayne in the Gotham TV show, so obviously worries about stepping on the movie’s toes aren’t there when you have a male superhero. Uggggggh. I honestly didn’t think the CW could do WW justice, but the fact that WB is constantly ignoring her and that the last female super hero movie was 10 years ago has me aching for representation of any kind, at all.

  • Glitchy

    aaaaaaaaand the “She’s tricky” defense is brought out yet again.

    There are not enough desks in the world to convey the headdeskiness of this.

  • Forthas

    I am sure that when they have made a mockery of the heroine in the Batman Vs Superman film(as I thoroughly expect), they will say “see, I told you it would not work.” when in fact it is poor effort that will ruin it.

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    The way I heard this somewhere else, if they do approach a Wonder Woman series, they would like it to share a universe with Flash and Arrow and that they are trying to find a good enough script that can make it worthwhile. And that the most recently presented script was what was rejected because it wasn’t up to their standards, not the concept for the show itself.

    As for the whole ‘Wonder woman secondary’ business; With the rumors swirling about right now speculating that ‘the Justice League movie coming hot on the heels of Batman and Superman with the filming going on alongside that of the batman and superman flick with the batman/superman film leading directly into a justice league film that will come out a year later’ It could actually be something pretty epically awesome depending on how valid the rumors are.

  • Mike Chen

    “Well, unless you’re The Fantastic Four, who got a sequel after a bust of a first movie.”

    Tangential to this…supernerd David Tennant said he wanted to play Reed Richards and I think that’s the only way you’d manage to get me to see a FF movie.

  • Adrian

    The conversation needs to evolve. Wonder Woman isn’t the problem: she’s real, she’s here, and she’s been written successfully many times before. The problem is that those in power, who can drive the production of a show/movie forward through any challenges, are uninspired or unmotivated to do so… and that could come from a lack of imagination, a blatant ignoring of the audience, or sheer absence of will to bring an proven icon back to our screens.

    I’m waiting on your call, Pedowitz.

  • AverageDrafter

    She’s Tricky = We’re Lazy.

    DC/WB just hates women and girls. HATES them, doesn’t want them reading their books, watching their shows, or seeing their movies without their husbands/boyfriends/brothers/dads along – I guess to explain things to them. For sure doesn’t want them buying anything.

    The sooner we get Captain Marvel, the better.

  • Important Film Maker

    Marvel got freakin’ HAWKEYE on screen before Warner Brothers did. Hawkeye. The man whose power is literally being a drier Green Arrow. Has had more screen exposure than Wonder Woman. Criminy

  • Anonymous

    “While I think I would actually prefer a solid Wonder Woman television
    show that would necessarily be primarily about Amazons or their cultural
    beliefs over a solid Wonder Woman cameo or secondary character
    appearance in what already promises to be a movie with a lot of things
    going on,…”

    See, if that was the show we were losing, I’d feel sad. I don’t believe that’s what we’re losing so I don’t. CW has shown no sign they’d be able to handle the character correctly (tricky my ass!) and we have to hope all their attempts will fail until the right person comes along.

  • Anonymous

    You forgot to mention the talking racoon and the talking tree that will appear on the big screen before her.

  • Travis

    Reposting my reactions from Bleeding Cool…

    I normally roll my eyes at the implication of misogyny in Hollywood, but this is getting absurd.

    Young Diana is a rebellious Amazon Princess. She’s already tired of her people’s isolation when “PLOT HOOK” happens. Something must be done, but Mommy refuses to let anybody leave the island. Diana borrows a bunch of magic items and decides to take care of it on her own.

    She arrives in America (naturally) and, with the help of a spunky young friend and some gold lifted from the royal treasury, sets herself up in a city that happens to host an Air Force base where a certain Steve Trevor is in training.
    From there you’ve got magical highinks, political intrigue, Diana learning about “man’s world”, Diana hiding from her Mom’s attempts to call her home, the occasional episode centering around spunky young friend’s past, and of course loads of sexual tension between Diana and Steve Trevor.

    This is not rocket surgery. This is the CW’s bread and butter. It’s insane that somebody thinks they can make a Flash TV show work, but don’t know how to get Wonder Woman on TV.

  • Anonymous

    She’s a very tricky girl
    And she’s not much like June Cleaver.
    The villains never get her spirit down,
    Watch her get them off the street!

    She ranks with Supes and Bats in the JL
    So why can’t she be someone’s favorite?
    We’ve had Flash, Arrow and Hawkeye! It’s the right time!
    So get her on my screen!

    Oh, no!
    Our girl is pretty widely loved
    (The girl’s a tricky feat!)
    The kind that geeks will tweet about
    (They’ll leak our casting sheet!)
    We don’t think it’s that difficult
    (But girls only like pink!)
    I’d really love to see this show
    (That pilot came to grief!)

    It’s all right, just find someone who CAN write!
    And don’t dress her up in hooker tights, you’ll see…

  • athenia45

    Translation: We can’t sell feminism.

  • Glitchy

    That was wonderful.

  • Anonymous

    This isn’t feminism. Hell, it’s not even parity. This is a bare acknowledgement that there’s a ranking superhero who is female and still has fans. We can’t even get that.

  • TheChief

    I know everyone likes to rip DC on how they have treated females in the movies, but it’s not like Marvel has any female led movies either (besides Elektra). Marvel has females relegated to sidekicks. They still may be BAMF’s, but side kicks nonetheless. That may change if they ever do a Captain Marvel or Black Widow movie which I’m hoping for.

    As for Wonder Woman, it is actually quite mind boggling the treatment she has had. Characters like her (ie Xena) have had success in the past. I just don’t understand it. It’s almost like someone has a vendetta against her or something.

  • Chelsea Anderson

    <3 Love it.

  • locuas

    So, let me get this straight. you already said that FLash is going to get a cameo in the same movie that you say WW is going to appear and for that reason you are not making a tv series…despite FLash having his own series in the work already………Considering what happened with the previous pilot, i am going to give them a chance and let them make the tv series when they are sure it is going to actually be good…………BUT, if it turns out the rumolrs about the amazons descending of kriptonias are truel, i am done.

  • Aeryl

    Marvel catches it’s fair share of flack from the people I talk to, and objectively, DC has far more and better women characters.

    But, recent experience plays a part of the criticism, and DC has been explicit in their desire to separate themselves from a more diverse fanbase. So that must be taken into account.

    In addition, Marvel doesn’t have any woman in their stable with the visibility of Wonder Woman, she’s a part of the fricking TRINITY, there are no Marvel comparisons.

  • locuas

    here is the difference. even if you like the marvel movies or not, AT LEAST it feels like Marvel knows what the hell are doing and have had discussions about this. the “marvel movies don’t have female leads” defense does not work because 1) the marvel cinematic universe feels like it has actually been given some tought to it. This IS a world that have multiple characters living on it and having their own adventures. 2) it has been shown some interest from marvel to change this. The WW2 tv series is one example, and i believe they may be saving female leads for phase 3, when they are completely sure that people watches the movies for the “marvel cinematic universe” and not for who is the star(long story short, i believe that the cinematic universe was an insane idea that could have easily blown on marvel’s face had they not been careful, so i am willing to give them some time before demanding a female lead).
    DC, on the other hand, have shown no indication that they know what they are doing. the “superman vs. batman” idea feels rushed, there is no build up to it. they are trying to get avenger’s success when the thing is, Avengers was succesful because it took it’s time to present the characters and their own stories before having them met. I don’t even know which batman it is going to be. the Dark Knight batman? that would make no sense. a reboot batman? now they will need to present him again for eople who are used to Dark Knight batman.
    DC is just throwing ideas to the air while Marvel is building an actual playground where to make any movie they want. that is the difference.

  • TheChief

    Agreed. Wonder Woman has much more visibility relative to Marvel’s female characters. Being part of the Trinity, you’d think she get a move before Hal Jordan did. I honestly think Green Lantern is tricker to make than Wonder Woman.

  • locuas

    Actually…i think he would make for a fantastic(hehe…) Reed Richards. he can pull the technobabble, he is a great actor and, while it could feel odd to hear a british reed richards(unless Tennant has a good american accent), i think he can pull it.

  • TheChief

    Understood. I also feel that DC has seemed to be aimless making their movies and now seems to want to try to play catch up with Marvel. I just felt that Mavel seemed to be getting to much of a pass in regards to woman characters (or POC characters as well).

  • Adrian

    The Flash in the films isn’t confirmed.

  • Adrian

    The Flash being in the film(s) hasn’t been confirmed and the whole thing about Wonder Woman having Kryptonian lineage was denied.

  • locuas

    thank the gods!

  • Anonymous

    She’s a very special girl
    From her tiara to her knee boots
    She’s got powers from the gods to rival Superman
    Her mom’s the Amazonian queen!

    She’s part of Justice League’s main founders
    Heroes and villains all respect her
    But when it comes to giving her screentime in Hollywood
    Execs throw such a freaky scene!

    That Woman’s pretty wonderful!
    (The girl’s a tricky feat!)
    A woman and a warrior
    (Those two worlds just can’t meet!)
    The Woman’s really popular
    (We don’t think boys agree!)
    You animated her decently
    (We’re not all Paul Dini!)

    It’s all right, just find someone who CAN write!
    And cast somebody Lawless-like, you’ll see…


    You say she’s too tricky! Too tricky!
    Just pull your head out
    But she’s too tricky! Too tricky!
    And get the lead out

  • Laura Truxillo

    Possibly because Marvel’s also got two female-led (and one PoC-led) tv series in the works, they’ve had a female hero who wasn’t romantically involved with anyone, and they’ve had War Machine/Iron Patriot and will be having Falcon in the upcoming Captain America movie.

    No, it’s not quite as good as giving women and not-white-dudes their own starring role in a motion picture, but it’s a sight better than where DC is now. In terms of their comics themselves, Marvel seems like it’s garnered more good faith as well.

    And, as Aeryl says, I think a lot of fans feel that DC has more women who could/should adapt easily to the screen–certainly they have more women who do the solo act (while Marvel seems to be a lot about team books). And Wonder Woman is THE most iconic female superhero, but they Won’t. Use. Her.

  • MeatyStakes

    I dunno, part of me wants to think that the script was so horrid that the CW didn’t want to sully WW name further.

    But goddamn people, would you FREAKING TRY??

  • TheChief

    Marel is definitely moving in a positive direction. Maybe I’m giving them to hard of a time. As you said, they do have two series coming up and potential movies in the next phase. Plus they have POC’s that are at least in prominent positions. Compare that to DC, they are light years ahead.

  • locuas

    the already tried with a pilot. if they feel they don’t have a strong script, i preffer that to another scene of WW murderin a security Guard in cold blood…

  • John W

    Wow it’s like having a winning lottery ticket and not wanting to cash it in.

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    Its actually rather unlikely that Flash will make an appearance at all. They have stated plans to make a Flash Movie, but they have not picked an actor and for all indication, it would probably be similar in implementation to how we are hearing about Ant-man who will be introduced, despite Avengers 2 not being out yet (and antman not appearing in it according to reported information)

    More likley, the justice league movie will work to include core members whose origins are not a single thing but an evolving event over the course of their lives. The ones who if the world was about to be destroyed, would have stood up to do something. The likes of Batman cannot be introduced later down the road as someone already existing in the ciniverse without making it seem like he was sitting on his hands as his origin requires him to have been preparing for years to assume his role.
    The Flash on the other hand is a character with a single defining point in his life that made him a hero. The accident that gave him his powers.

    Purely speculation on my part, but I predict that the Justice League movie will consist of Superman, Batman, Nightwing, Wonder Woman and Aquaman with that spinning off into standalone films for the last three.

  • Harvey Throneless King Thornto

    Wait, wait, wait. Are we still calling it “Superman Vs. Batman”? Because I’ve been calling it “That movie ticket I’m buying to see what’ll probably be a cameo.”

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    Umm…How does it seem like Marvel knows what it is doing? I can appreciate liking the marvel movieverse and Avengers was quite awesome, though watching the films I don’t see real indication of long term thought or specific direction.

    Hulk was basically standalone and didn’t contribute at all to Avengers (and according to Weadon isn’t interesting enough to make another movie centering around him)
    The Thor movie did introduce the central villain for the last Avengers film yes, except he spent the entire avengers movie displaying unseen abilities and working with a motive that had literally nothing to do with his role in Thor.

    Saying it seems like DC has no plan when they only decided to try out the shared universe concept recently is a bit of an overly early call.

    Saying that they need to build up to it with shared movies is a tad silly when the characterization from Marvels build up movies had little impact on the characters. In fact, I would argue that the only necessary movie before seeing Avengers was Iron man 2 which developed Stark who was essentially the main character, and introduced Black Widow who stole the show and did more to further the story and save the day than any of the non stark characters in the movie.

    Despite that, Black Widow didn’t get her own movie, we didn’t get to really get a feel for her and a fair amount of Avengers was actually spent to developing her.

    Watching Avengers, I couldn’t really be sure if this was supposed to be a new hulk or the hulk from the most recent movie.

    Okay they needed to replace the actor, but why does the green monster who was helping people in his own film go around trying to kill Black Widow for no explained reason then turn around and fight alongside them with a smile on his face one scene later?
    How did learning Captain Americas backstory or seeing any of the Captain America movie further any overall story leading up to Avengers? Yes they had revealed the avengers mcguffn in his film, but it ultimately served no purpose until the following movie.
    How did Thor get back to Midgard? How did he know Loki was there? If it was because Odin is all knowing, then why didn’t he just use his power to telaport Loki back, like he did at the end of Avengers? Beyond setting up our big villian, what was the point of this movie?

    I would actually say the opposite. Marvel is trying to introduce anything and everything it can in order to make standalone movies with no connection to one another while DC is planning things out and trying to make things come together into a more cohesive whole.

  • Jamie Jeans

    Wow, some idiots cancelled a Wonder Woman show?

    Guess what else, people, the sky is blue, we breath air, etc etc…

    So damned sick of this garbage excuse making.

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    While they weren’t great movies, DC has made several efforts to do things with their heroines. The supergirl movie, the wonder woman tv show from the 70s, thee birds of prey series, the especially terrible catwoman movie…
    Plus, while it was only an animated film, there was a Wonder Woman movie. Unlike Marvel who hasn’t even approached an animated film centered around one of their female leads. (Instead focusing on Iron man and Hulk)

  • locuas

    i will put it this way.
    Phase one presents the universe:
    Iron man 1 and 2 shows us a world similar to our, while also giving us a grasp of the technological level in this world.
    It also does the job to present us with some minor elements that will become important later, mainly S.H.I.E.L.D.
    Hulk, the weakest of the films, shows more of what S.H.I.E.L.D and the interest of the government while also showing us that the technology shown in the iron Man movies are not an everyday thing.
    THor gives us a grasp in the more mystical side of this world, revealing that there is more than just earth.
    Captain America makes it clear that history is different than ours.
    And then Avengers explains what S.H.I.E.L.D is, the face of the united nations, the big villain of the film universe, and changes the world with the battle of new york.

    Phase 2 expands on this world:
    Iron Man 3, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D and Captain America 2 show us the effect that the battle in new york has had in the world, showing many other faces besides S.H.I.E.L.D and that the world is bigger than it looked before.
    THor 2 and GotG explore more of the universe outside earth and some of the elements on it, such as the infinity stones.
    and avengers 2 will likely show us a world changed after a menace as powerful as the alien invasion…except born on earth.

    THen, after the world is presented and the elements shown expanded, phase 3 would likely be “explore” this world. with movies that not necessarily are connected with the whole Thanos thing or the avengers

    So, i believe, the best moment for marvel to make a female lead film would be during Phase 3, after we know this world better.
    But that’s my opinion and i may be completely wrong.

  • Revolution of Eva

    I can’t wait to see Batman in the Gotham TV series and Man of Steel 2, simultaneously! Will Green Arrow be in the Justice League movie?

  • Anonymous

    Ghost rider and Fantastic Four got second shots mostly due to rights issues. That is why Fox is desperate to reboot Fantastic Four.

  • Anonymous

    Well, Wonder Woman is tricky. There are things about that character’s backstory, specifically, that make her tricky. She’s a feminist icon from the 1940s, and at that time, she was something fresh and interesting, even if her primary selling point was that a strong female character, even a not very layered one, was something radical and fresh at the time. We’ve (hopefully) come a long way since the 1940s, and feminism today is (hopefully) a bit more refined than it was at the time. One of the tricky things is that she’s from an isolated island populated by warrior women, who haven’t advanced a whole lot in technology in the last couple of thousand years. Warriors. Who are isolated. They have no enemy to fight, and yet training for war is apparently pretty much all they do. That’s just strange, and I’m not sure what that’s supposed to say about people. That’s just one thing. Oh, and why are they isolated? Because they ran from a fight. So basically, these are warriors, supposedly among the best, and their society is pretty much built around being warrios, and yet when faced with war, they run and hide? That seems a bit inconsistent. Not saying running and hiding is a bad thing, but I wouldn’t call it a warrior kind of thing to do. There’s also a whole lot of mythology and not one clear, character-driven story behind Wonder Woman, which makes her tricky. That’s not because she’s a woman. That’s because she’s specifically Wonder Woman, who can be a catastrophe in the wrong hands (Exhibit A: David E. Kelley’s pilot, which for the record was atrocious). Even the 2009 animated movie, which was quite enjoyable over all, suffered from a few of the problems inherent in the setup. The tricky part is figuring what parts to use from what source and what parts to update, and how to do that without losing what the character is. That is tricky. These suits may be full of shit in general, but they’re not lying when they say Wonder Woman is tricky. She is. She can’t be boiled down to a simple idea like “Rich kid sees parents shot and killed by petty thief, swears revenge on crime itself: Zorro framework, Sherlock Holmes intellect, Ninja skills, Dracula iconography”, and even the also quite tricky to pull off “God-like alien gets raised by good parents on Earth, becomes its protector” is easier to boil down than Wonder Woman.

    You know who’s not tricky? Black Canary. She’s been around almost as long, and yet, she currently doesn’t even have her own solo comic book title, and the only live action portrayals we’ve seen have been very loosely based and short on personality (and always playing second fiddle to someone else, such as Green Arrow). If anyone’s being done a disservice in the DC multiverse, it’s Black Canary. At least they’re trying to get Wonder Woman off the ground. They just keep fucking it up and starting from scratch before anything sees the light of day, but they clearly keep trying. Be glad they scrapped project Amazon. It was probably a mess. They’ll be at it with some other interpretation soon, trying to get around the tricky parts, and probably failing yet again. Meanwhile, Black Canary will remain in obscurity for no reason what so ever.

  • Octochan

    My exact reaction to this headline – “Fuck a fuck fuck.”

  • Anonymous

    If “she’s tricky” meant “we’re lazy” or “we hate girls”, they wouldn’t have been trying in the first place. Twice (three times if you count the movie project). Wonder Woman is tricky. It’s hard to make that premise work. Not because of gender, but because it’s a huge complicated and highly problematic back story to set up a vaguely defined character.
    I’m not saying they’re not lazy, nor am I saying they don’t hate girls, but those aren’t the reasons why they keep trying and failing to make Wonder Woman. The David E. Kelley pilot, which did get made, was atrocious, and this project was likely a mess too. They were trying to update the concept. Thing is, Wonder Woman’s back story does need some updating. There are some things about it that can easily be interpreted as sexist or just plain illogical. But how much can you update something before you lose what it is? David E. Kelley’s pilot tried to update it way too much. It ruined it. There was nothing Wonder Woman about it. It was just utter and complete shit. Because they tried to update something that needed updating and just went about it completely the wrong way. Because it’s tricky. Also because David E. Kelley doesn’t understand the genre or the character. Likely, this project had similar but different problems in how it tried to update the story. It’s a tough nut to crack. That’s not some bullshit line. The bullshit comes out when you ask them why there’s no Batgirl or Black Canary series/movie. With Wonder Woman, at least they’re trying, and they’re aware they haven’t figured out how to make it work yet (and clearly they haven’t given up). Be glad they’re not rushing it out like they did with the Green Lantern movie, which should’ve been scrapped until they could figure out that it should basically be a cop movie in space (which the animation department had already figured out with First Flight).

  • Anonymous

    I’m actually really surprised on CW’s end. They have a pretty solid history of successful female lead shows. I’m thinking Gossip Girl, 90210, and the Carrie Diaries are/were all led by female characters and do pretty decent.

    And yes, I know these shows and Wonder Woman aren’t in the same universe, but female-lead drama is kind of CW’s thing. I kind of wished they’d taken a crack at it. Oh well.

  • Anonymous

    I was thinking the same thing. I’d fully trust this show in CW’s hands. I’m blaming WB for this foolishness.

  • Xomyx

    Well the New 52 update to her back story made the Amazons murdering rapist baby killers, meanwhile, Thor has an equally kind of “tricky” back story but they made it work. There are people in DC and WB who love her and want to tell her story (Gail Simone for example is an amazing WW writer), yes, but the powers that be are happy to have her as a secondary character/love interest and nothing else.

    Also there’s no Batgirl animated film because the WW film didn’t sell as fast as they liked, so they decided no women should get their own animated films anymore.

  • Xomyx

    So I’m getting the idea you don’t read Wonder Woman? The Amazons are more technologically advanced. Remember that invisible jet that they engineered? Its a very recent development that the Amazons are backwards barbarians. Originally, they were a utopia society that’s much better off than ours.

  • Xomyx

    I think Marvel deserves criticism, but I switched from reading DC to Marvel because Marvel does seem to really want to be the alternative right now. They’re coming out with a Jessica Jones show and they’re being really good to female led comics lately. Its probably part of the Disney image thing and a PR thing, I’m not being naive, but at least it seems like they’re putting real effort into it.

  • Xomyx

    Yeah but they won’t do any more female led animated films because the WW one didn’t sell fast enough (it ended up being a best seller anyway…). Most of your examples are now pretty old too, Elektra being more recent than all but Catwoman.

  • Nicole Elizabeth Currie

    Seriously though, they made Thor work. They made space Vikings with godly powers/magic work. I’m pretty sure that WW’s origin story is not only better known than Thor’s, but then Norse mythology in general.

  • Nicole Elizabeth Currie

    I’d watch it.

  • Adrian

    That’s why I get the impression that this is coming from the top at WB. They’ve been known to be a little stingy when crossing TV with film.

    Though I never watched the show, I’ve heard the stories of them refusing to put Batman on Smallville its entire run.

    With all that’s riding on Gadot as Wonder Woman, they may also be a little apprehensive with putting out a second version for comparison.

  • Adrian

    That wasn’t CW, though, I believe. That horrible pilot was done by NBC, if I recall.

  • Monkey Tennis

    Definitely not the same universe. The closest thing the CW have had to a Wonder Woman series (in so much as it being an action orientated show with a female lead) would have been Nikita.

    And that was cancelled.

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    At least DC put more of an effort into it than Marvel has. Especially if you were to include the shorts that have included Thunder and Lightning, Super Best Friends Forever, Princess Amyethst, the Wonder Woman shorts all of which were pretty amazingly spectacular.

  • Nuuni Nuunani

    I disagree that Marvels phase one was at all necessary however.

    Instead, I would argue that these were completely unconnected films made for their individual benefit more than anything else, with Avengers not befitting from their inclusion.

    Iron Man 1 and 2 felt the most connected to Avengers, yes. But it presented a world that was exactly likee ours with the sole exception of what this one guy came up with. It established that there was a group named SHIELD running around who will come to call if Stark was ever attacked, even a nutter on a racetrack. It introduced Black Widow and for all intents and purposes, Avengers felt more like a direct sequel to Iron Man 2 than a crossover film.

    Hulk was not bad as a standalone movie though as you said, its connection to the other films was by far the weakest. It did not present anything we did not already know. And over the course of two Iron man films, it was already pretty clearly spelt out that Stark was the exception, not the rule to the Marvel universe.

    Thor spent the entire film trying to emphasize that all of the god stuffs, magic stuffs and such was really advanced technology and spent half the time saying Asgards were aliens. It did not lend anything to the Avengers narrative aside from a villain whose shifted motives are not readily explained in Thor.

    Yes, it did show that there was more life out there, but considering the aliens presented in Avengers were not even hinted at until Avengers, the audience reason to expect them. This did not diminish Avengers in the least, but I do not believe it was at all necessary because the audience is able to figure that stuff out for themselves.

    Captain America (which I would argue has been the best Marvel movie so far) was a very good standalone film, but it again, had nothing to do with Marvels crossover plans. It showed that there was a guy going around getting people to buy war bonds, and it worked to replace Nazi’s with HYDRA (and replacing the idea that HYDRA was run by Nazis since its getting behind in the times)

    As for the whole ‘SHIELD being the central villain’ thing, both Weadon brothers have gone on record debunking that rumor, one of which even going on to say that they are the good guys, but that they are faced with morally grey decisions that force them to be pragmatic. (Which is not really surprising considering its comic origins)

    My argument is not that we wont be seeing a female lead superheroine film, I am arguing that the five film build up to Avengers was wholly unnecessary, and that they could have gone straight into Avengers from Iron Man 2 and it would not have changed anything in the other movies in the least. And that once DC gets Justice League out of the way, we will be able to sit back and enjoy an awesome sauce movie about Wonder Woman (most probably plagued by flashbacks illustrating the course of her life which could be good or bad depending on how its delivered.)

    As for thoughts on phase 2 and 3…I absolutely agree with you on those. Though given the direction Marvel is taking, they seem just as happy to use shorts and tv series to deliver stories for their universe as they are films. Their SHIELD tv series includes a couple female agents, and Defenders continues the status quo of introducing a super team that only has one female member.

    I am of the opinion that we will be seeing a Wasp film before we are a Captain Marvel one, simply because Wasp fits a more stereotypical genre niche that they can take advantage of.

  • Rachael Reynolds

    Marvel managed to adapt a series about a group of immortal alien gods, the main one of which had a magical hammer. But we all know a complex/out there backstory means audiences will hate it!

  • Anonymous

    They didn’t make Thor work. Marvel did. The difference isn’t as much in will as it is in WB simply not knowing what the hell they’re doing, what creative people to hire or what to ask of them. Joss Whedon was working on a Wonder Woman movie years ago. He left the project because they basically told him “this isn’t what we want, but we’re not going to tell you what we do want, because we have no clue what we want this to be, so you’ll just have to keep guessing until you come up with something we like”. It’s a matter of WB wanting to push Wonder Woman but having no idea how to do that. It’s tricky. Because they’re still stuck in the mindset that everything has to be like Batman Begins (Green Lantern only served to “demonstrate” that going any other way doesn’t work, which is of course a misinterpretation) and just don’t understand that there’s a reason why Batman is Batman and the rest of the DC universe isn’t. I’m not saying it can’t be done. I’m just saying THESE PEOPLE, specifically, don’t have what it takes to pull it off. They have to stop looking at statistics and start looking at the characters if they want to get anywhere, and they’re just not there yet. They made a Superman movie that basically started with Pa Kent saying it’s okay to kill people and ended with Superman killing a dude and a Green Arrow TV show where Green Arrow spent the whole first season casually murdering people. That’s a pretty clear sign that these people should spend some serious time trying to figure out Wonder Woman before messing that up.
    Marvel looked at the character of Thor, thought “Okay, how the fuck do we do this? Oh, let’s hire someone who would know how to tell this story.” Contrast that with WB, who looked at Superman and went “Okay, let’s get someone who makes cool looking comic book movies that do big at the box office and tell him to make it dark.”. So yes, Wonder Woman is tricky. For them. Could someone pull it off? Sure. Could someone pull it off while making WB happy? Not before they start placing character and story before numbers.

  • AverageDrafter

    Here’s the deal – she isn’t tricky… She’s just damn near impossible to shoehorn her origins into a “real life” situation or ignore them altogether. You can’t the remove the character from her Amazonian and Greek God origins. Her origins are supernatural – either from clay and given the gifts from the gods, or that she’s the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta.

    You can jettison Steve Trevor, you can update the costume – hell, she’s had like 30, you can bring her into world in modern times, but you can’t try to “update” the Amazons away. It’s her sisterhood, which is 100% key to the character.

    I’m pretty sure Goyer is going to try to make her Kyrptonian, which is Midichlorian levels of bad idea.

  • Anonymous

    But that’s my point-CW doesn’t mind taking a chance on this type of material. Nikkita still got two seasons on the air, so I it wouldn’t be a stretch for them to greenlight Wonder Woman. Especially when you add in their success in keeping Smallville running for so long and their success with Arrow.

  • Nicole Elizabeth Currie

    Yeah, you’re totally right. I just the WB would just hand over the reigns to someone who knows what they’re doing.
    I’m a Marvel girl, but I really want WW.

  • Ben English

    Uh…. What? I see no reason to think that Wonder Woman will be mocked. I sincerely hope her part is bigger than we’ve been lead to believe, but everything I’ve seen on the creative end makes it look like they’re doing their best to get Wonder Woman right. I guess they can still fuck up, but it won’t be from lack of effort.

    I mean, yeah, it’s laughable that she’s getting her start in someone else’s movie and that Warner Brothers has no idea what to do with her, the most iconic female superhero. It sucks, but it’s something happening on the studio and corporate level.

  • Ben English

    There’s be nothing tricky about Green Lantern if they’d just use badass ex-marine and architect John Stewart. Hal Jordan *is* the problem. We don’t need another douchey white guy, Tony Stark was plenty.

    And Ryan Reynolds sure as hell doesn’t have RDJ’s charisma.

  • Ben English

    There’s be nothing tricky about Green Lantern if they’d just use badass ex-marine and architect John Stewart. Hal Jordan *is* the problem. We don’t need another douchey white guy, Tony Stark was plenty.

    And Ryan Reynolds sure as hell doesn’t have RDJ’s charisma.

  • Anonymous

    I agree. The basics of her origin should remain intact. It’s the specifics of it that are tricky. But yes, putting her in a “real world” context and/or trying to remove the mythology is impossible, and yes, that’s probably part of what they’ve been trying to do. Because, as established, they’re idiots, and that’s totally what they would do (and one of the many stupid things they did do with the Kelley pilot). These are the people who built a ten year Superman series on the motto “no tights, no flights”, after all. So, basically, utter numbskulls who don’t understand their own properties. As such, for these people, Wonder Woman is especially tricky. She’s tricky enough as it is, but in the hands of idiots, it’s tenfold. Contrast that with Marvel, who know what they’re doing. Kevin Feige is a total geek, who knows at least the basics of what makes comic books interesting. He doesn’t pull back on the crazy, and he knows whom to hire most of the time, but also, he knows when things are worth reworking. For example, the removal of Thor’s dual identity was a wise choice, as was arguably the pretty much complete reworking of the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. These were changes that actually helped tell the stories and make them make more sense. A few things about Wonder Woman’s origin need to be tweaked to patch up some logical inconsistencies and questionable philosophical implications (accidental sexism and such). There’s also the task of taking the different interpretations of Wonder Woman and picking out the things that work and reworking the things that don’t. That’s tricky, but not impossible in the right hands. The problem is it’s not in the right hands. But I don’t think it’s primarily a gender issue, since they clearly know that they have to keep trying even if they have no clue what they’re doing. There are character’s I’ll gladly point to as being neglected or marginalized for gender related reasons, but Wonder Woman is one of the “big three”, and DC/WB knows it and are clearly ashamed that they don’t have a take on it yet. And it’ll likely be a long time before they figure out the fans don’t want to see their heroes watered down, so even if they come up with a Wonder Woman they’re happy with, chances are it’ll be a bit low on the wonder.

  • Anonymous

    You can’t be talking about the David E. Kelley pilot. That was a piece of utter garbage.

  • Anonymous

    Marvel has the benefit of Kevin Feige and Joss Whedon, who love the comics and just trust that what they love about the comics will translate to live action if done with care. WB/DC saw Batman Begins and The Dark Knight do well at the box office and get great reviews, and instead of thinking “that worked because it was an interesting take on that particular property”, they thought “oh, so dark and serious is good”, and then they just keep misapplying that principle to everything they do out of fear that anything else will turn out like Batman & Robin or Green Lantern, not understanding that each property has to be looked at from the perspective of “Why do we love this, what is the genre or style built into this premise, and who would be a good fit for bringing that to life?”. If they had someone with that perspective in charge, we’d have a Superman movie where Superman really does represent hope rather than just claiming his crest does, we’d have a Green Arrow TV series where Oliver is a liberal idealist with a twinkle in his eye and we’d have a Green Lantern space cop movie, not to mention we’d probably have a Wonder Woman movie written and directed by Joss Whedon in 2008. Instead we get obsessively formulaic and forced “seriousness” and a whole bunch of abandoned projects, because these people have no vision beyond “let’s make it like that one thing that worked that one time”.

  • AverageDrafter

    I would agree on the gender thing – assuming that they would want to try to appeal to women and girls as they make up a ton of our population. Except Paul Dini has gone on record as saying that DC/WB executive do not want girls watching their shows because they don’t buy toys.

    As asinine (and false) as that argument is, I actually have no trouble believing this is a prevailing sentiment among some powerful people.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think Dini was talking about DC/WB, but about either Cartoon Network executives or the toy companies (an industry built on tradition and habit) that fill their pockets. And yes, that attitude is a very real problem (and I have no problem with pointing to that issue with regard to the general lack of female superheroes on the screen), but I don’t think that’s the reason why there’s yet to be specifically a live action Wonder Woman movie or TV show. If it were, they wouldn’t keep trying to make it happen. Wonder Woman is one of the big three for DC, and they’ve spent years trying to figure out how to make it work, and repeatedly they get pretty far into the process before they go “no, this isn’t quite it” and start over. Clearly, the problem specifically with Wonder Woman is that, like with everything else, they’re trying to “fix it” in all the wrong ways and then realizing at the last second that they’ve messed it up, so they start over and then make the same basic mistake all over again. Where they should be going “Oh, this premise is a hard sell, so maybe we should put some real effort into figuring out how to bring the audience into it and maybe patch up the specific details that don’t quite make sense, but no more than necessary” (which would be the part that truly is tricky, but not impossible), they’re going “oh, this premise is a hard sell, so let’s just throw that out altogether and make up something else instead and slap the Wonder Woman name on it and hope nobody notices” (the easy way out, which ultimately just leads to a mess). They know it’s tricky, but the problem isn’t that they recognize that it’s tricky. The problem is that they’re trying to get around it and then realizing they’ve messed up, without learning the lesson. Instead of looking at the premise and figuring out what the premise needs, they’ve been trying to fit it into the molds of both Batman Begins and Smallville, neither of which has fit, but they’ll likely keep trying the same thing in the belief that the problem is they just haven’t figured out HOW to make it fit, while the real problem is that they haven’t figured out that they should be trying to make it work as its own thing instead of trying to make it fit a preexisting mold.

  • Gus J Belanger

    Now, this assumes a couple of things. There is some talk that a TV show will be like Smallville but for Diana Prince. Hmm, I have NO idea how they’d work that since accepted canon has her basically a fully matured woman when she leaves Themyscira, but whatever, this assumes they DON’T do that. It assumes she is full grown.

    1) Cast someone who has a full figure AND can act!!

    No stick insects! No fashion models trained to have a blank expression on their face as a default! You DO NOT want someone who has to “work up” emotions. WW is a being of righteous anger and passion! She is also a warrior and needs to look like he can kick ass and take hits. Tiny little itty-bitty girls ain’t gonna convey that impression, sorry.

    2) Get her the @#!*! out of that suit!

    Yes, I know. WW’s suit has basically been the same for 60 years, but she looks like a cross between a prom queen and a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader, with some BDSM tossed in because the original costume designer was a bit of a bondage fan. These days she looks ridiculous.

    She comes from a Helenic warrior culture, so why the hell isn’t she in armor? What, it works for Batman but not her? When Batman was cooked up back in the day he didn’t wear any body armor (now, granted such things weren’t practical then, but he didn’t don B.Armor until the late 80’s for the Burton Movie!) and now he does. Why can’t Wonder Woman wear a costume that makes her look similar to a Greek Hoplite? Why does every female superhero have to show the teenage trinity of boobs, legs and butt?

    3) Do NOT turn Wonder Woman into Grey’s Anatomy, Alley McBeal, or ANYTHING that has long montages with soulful, quirky, hipster music in the background!

    Yes, Diana Prince is a woman. Yes, woman’s lives are often different than those of a male, but this is a Princess who grew up in a – and I say it again – Warrior Culture descended from the Ancient Greeks and modeled on the Spartans. This woman is not going to be ooshy-gooshy or touchy-feelie. She is not going to have spent all sorts of time bowing to the patriarchy – indeed coming from Themyscira, she will have no IDEA what the full implications of a patriarchy are.

    She doesn’t have to be openly hostile to males – I am not proposing she be a diesel-powered riot grrrrl, (though there is NO law whatsoever that says she can’t be a lesbian…why can’t she be a lesbian? Makes perfect sense to me…ain’t no boy-fleshes on Themyscira until its time for makin’ babies and it would seem to me in that case the Themyscirans would take the same attitude towards men as ancient Greek males used to take about women!) but she should never EVER take shit from a male – no matter how she feels about him.

    BUT by the same token, do not turn Wonder Woman into Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I am not interested in sitting through another show where “girls all rule and boys all drool…or get killed off…or get sent to their own series because they’re competent too.” I do not need that, neither does Diana Prince.

    4) Don’t get hung up on who Wonder Woman fights!

    She may not have a long list of “traditional” foes, but DC has more bad guys than you can shake a stick at. Pick a few! Hell steal a few from others! Could you imagine Wonder Woman fighting the Joker? Pure West…err…I mean Gold…

    There. Those are my thoughts. So let’s make with the movie/TV series already…