MovieBob Explains Why Depiction of Female Characters in Games Needs Talking About

Wow.I haven’t seen this issue presented quite so well before. I hope it has some sliver of impact. Although having online nerd raged on the topic myself I am not sure even this well thought out and non-threatening argument is going to get far with the audience it’s trying to reach.

An excellent summation. Though the fact it even needs to be said just makes my humanity sad.

*Purely trivial complaint: I love Yahtzee as much as the next maladjusted, cynical misanthrope, but I really wish other (aspiring) game reviewers would figure out their own style rather than simply copying Zero Punctuation.

I don’t think that the depiction of female characters in games needs to be talked about. The flaw with this argument is that people keep using the first person shooter, third person shooter, and fighting games to push the stereotype that the gaming industry makes games only for the white teenage males. If you play something other than Starcraft, Duke Nukem, Mass Effect, Street Fighter, and Soul Calibur every once in a while, then you will find some games with positive portrayals of female characters in games.

Second, what about games like Pokemon? Pokemon gives you the option of choosing between a male player character and a female character, choosing to catch a male pokemon and a female pokemon, there are female gym leaders, female trainers, female elite four members, a female champion, and a female professor. The best part is that the women have personalities, emotions, and and are just as competent as the male counterparts. They also come in a variety poses.

I’m sorry you think that, but it’s wrong. Even if you think FPS games are to blame, that’s one genre too many. Trouble is, they’re not only to blame. As a woman, this is strikingly obvious in lots, if not MOST, games I play. You’re going to have to trust us one of these days that there’s a problem, rather than doing the exact thing the video warns about: the knee-jerk “NUH-UH!!!!!!” response.

Also, you sound like this one dude who tried to console my gender woes by pointing out that Tetris existed, so I should have nothing to complain about. This is the sound of me rolling my eyes. So. Hard.

As the author stated, this conversation is relevant and is simultaneously taking place in other visual media, such as the furor over Batman/Catwoman and Kori/Starfire in “Red Hood & The Outlaws”. I can get the impression that a woman is sexy and has a potent personality without needing senseless boob / butt shots that would not happen in the circumstances shown in the game were it not for an invisible audience that the developers feel they need to pander to.

Pokemon is a step in the right direction, but at its core the game is being marketed to a younger demographic whose attention isn’t gotten through objectification. Plus, the core focus of the game isn’t about the characters but about the creatures you’re training.

Japan as a culture has a much greater hill to climb on the way to proper gender equality / gender relations. The controversy over “Catherine” makes this abundantly clear.

Also, to Vladimir: questioning the examples you put forth as low-hanging fruit. Starcraft doesn’t appear to make any blatant sexual offerings (and I’ve been happy with Blizzard’s general handling of story and characterization), and while there *are* some moments in Mass Effect where certain characters *coughMirandacough* are obviously a “cheap pop” to the male gaze, its portrayals of other female characters such as Liara, Tali, FemShep and even Jack, while sexy at times, have a maturity about them that doesn’t scream “Look at how round and anti-grav Bioware made my girl bits!”

Duke Nukem shouldn’t even count because 1) it’s over-the-top on purpose and 2) it’s rather terrible. What Bob wants to call attention to are the developers/games that don’t consciously know they’re pandering, or are doing so and deliberately saying they are not / raging against the argument out of some perceived slight.

Women represent over 1/2 the population so we shouldn’t have to sift through all the major adult titles so that we can play Pokemon 24/7.  The criticism is of the industry and one or two games among the greater library of gaming that treat women as actual people doesn’t mean that the problem doesn’t exist.

You went through saying that if you disclude three major genres that make up a lot of the industry that you can find female characters that aren’t depicted vapidly. 

And really the gym leaders in pokemon aren’t that much apart of the story. Hell, if you get down to it, pokemon is barely about people at all, it’s about, well, pokemon! 

The game creation industry is male dominant. Guys creating games for guys. Going off topic a bit, I went to an animation seminar hosted by two people who work at Pixar, both male, but high up in the food chain at the company. After the Story artist had given his presentation, he took questions, and one of the questions was “why doesn’t Pixar have any stories featuring a female lead”. It was a good question! His reply was along the lines of “well most of the story department at pixar is made up of guys, so we write stories about guys!”. And you can’t be terribly mad at that, because he’s saying they’re writing about what they know. (Then of course he brought up the upcoming “Brave”…)

The only way that games are going to change is if women get into positions in the gaming industry to create games that don’t objectify women. I’m not saying there aren’t already women out there working in the industry, but the industry is certainly still male dominated.

You are completely missing the point. I am saying that bloggers like to use first person shooter games, third person shooters, and fighting games the promote the conspiracy theory that the gaming industry somehow caters to the white teenage male demographic. There’s a very big flaw with this theory: 1. I am not white and. 2. I DON’T PLAY MOST OF THESE GAMES! I don’t play Starcraft, I don’t play Duke Nukem, and I don’t play Mass Effect, but these gaming activists like to use these games to promote their agenda and flawed theory that the gaming industry panders to the white male teen demographic, and that minorities or women don’t play video games unless they are pandered to, and that there’s at least one or two perfect minority or female that they can identify with.

I completely agree with you about how this applies to people! 

BREAKING NEWS, ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY: WOMEN ARE PEOPLE
TONIGHT AT 9

I think the knee-jerk reaction is the worst part of it. “I’m sorry you have a problem that doesn’t effect me, but since it doesn’t effect me it isn’t important. Shut up.” 

Your response was very insightful. 

I like the point but half the poses he used as an examples disprove his argument…

Wow, I have a lot of explaining to do. I don’t know where to start.

Most of you are really missing the point. What I am trying to say is that sexism in video games is not as bad as these bloggers want you to believe. If you take some time to play something other than the first person shooter, third person shooter, or fighting games every once in a while, then you will find the positive female characters that you so desperately seek.

Second, I am trying to say that I am sick and tired of these internet bloggers saying that the gaming industry caters to white teenagers, and that minorities and women won’t play video games until they have a positive portrayal of themselves that they can resonate with. I am not white, and I don’t want game companies to pander to me, I just want to play video games for fun. Also, it offends me on so many levels when they says this, and claim to represent the minorities, women, and the LGBT.

As for the Starfire/Catwoman controversy, what if it’s just hardcore fans who are looking for an excuse to bash DC Reboot?

In my opinion, I think that sexism in games is just a self fulfilling prophecy. Gamers are rejecting the female characters that the gaming industry is giving them because they don’t resonate with these characters, and when given an example of a positive portrayal of women in gaming, they dismiss it as a knee jerk reaction, which inadvertently proves that there are no positive portrayal of women in gaming.

The best way for gaming companies to combat these ludicrous accusations of sexism is to think outside of the box every once in a while, defy the expectations of gamers, and stop trying to sacrifice personality, individuality, and back story for flashy attire, positive discrimination, and the perfect physique (applies TO BOTH GENDERS).

“Gaming activists” say that “minorities or women don’t play video games unless they’re pandered to” ? That’s rather strange, given a lot of those “gaming activists” are women and minority gamers. If they weren’t gamers why on earth would they be “activists” about it in the first place ?

It’s also strange that you’re saying others are “completely missing the point” when none of them have contested your point that it’s a problem for some genres and not others. What they’re saying is that even if the problem is just for a few genres, it’s a problem. I mean, seriously. “I DON’T PLAY MOST OF THESE GAMES” ? BOY DO WE HAVE EGG ON OUR FACES. GIVEN THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION IS ABOUT YOU, AND PLAYING FPSs IS MANDATORY AS PER THE PATRIOT ACT WE’D NATURALLY ASSUMED… BUT GIVEN YOU DON’T PLAY THEM AFTER ALL THERE MUST BE NO PROBLEM THEN.

A very valuable lesson of internet arguing : “If it’s not about me, it’s not about me”.

I consider myself far from a hardcore fan. In fact, I picked up several of the New 52 for the first time with the reboot. Most of the titles I’ve read are great. I was still disappointed in the posing of Starfire and Catwoman.

And I do agree with you to a certain extent. In visual media, it’s a LOT better than it used to be. But it’s still an issue. Sometimes, in order to see the issue, it needs to be made to appear bigger than it is.

“What I am trying to say is that sexism in video games is not as bad as these bloggers want you to believe. If you take some time to play something other than the first person shooter, third person shooter, or fighting games every once in a while, then you will find the positive female characters that you so desperately seek.”

I am reading this as “Why can’t you girls let us guys have our tree fort where we can act this way in peace?” How does it solve anything – how does it advance the relationship between men and women if we choose to dwell in the tiny market share that is “doing it right” and consider the issue resolved?

“I am sick and tired of these internet bloggers saying that the gaming industry caters to white teenagers, and that minorities and women won’t play video games until they have a positive portrayal of themselves that they can resonate with.”

Ok, we have a lot of black, Hispanic, and even a few Asian protagonists in our games compared to a decade ago. Sure, some progress has been made. But by and large due to socioeconomic comparison, white male teenagers are more likely to have the funds necessary to own a game console than minorities would, so that’s why the numbers fall as they do.

I can easily back off of the bounding box of “white male teens” and go with “male teens”. We can focus on misogyny of multiple colors, and I’m sure each culture has different flavors and motifs of such. So now, you’re back in the crosshairs.

“As for the Starfire/Catwoman controversy, what if it’s just hardcore fans who are looking for an excuse to bash DC Reboot?”

It’s not about the hardcores bashing. It’s about expecting characters with developed, 3-D personalities rather than an excuse to pose women in unnatural poses and unrealistic costumes for the sake of time-delayed wankery. (Remember, it doesn’t have to be naked to be pornographic. And I’m not against porn by any means, but I am against claiming not to be something that it clearly is – a flagrant pander to male libido). I mean, how does it feel knowing that writers/developers/artists want objectify YOU as “will buy it if I show them boobs and ass on clear display in tight spandex”, and not a discerning reader? That’s selling the audience short. We deserve better than that generalization.

“Gamers are rejecting the female characters that the gaming industry is giving them because they don’t resonate with these characters, and when given an example of a positive portrayal of women in gaming, they dismiss it as a knee jerk reaction, which inadvertently proves that there are no positive portrayal of women in gaming.”

When there’s an epidemic, do you develop one batch of vaccine, heal one person, and call it solved? I don’t think any of the activists are “dismissing” the positive portrayals – they are saying that one good deed does not redeem the entirety of bad behavior. You’re merely treating the symptom and not the cause.

“The best way for gaming companies to combat these ludicrous accusations of sexism is to think outside of the box every once in a while, defy the expectations of gamers, and stop trying to sacrifice personality, individuality, and back story for flashy attire, positive discrimination, and the perfect physique (applies TO BOTH GENDERS).”

I strongly disagree that personality and good writing are mutually exclusive with physically-arousing content (see games like Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, Indigo Prophecy). As stated in the article, men may be idealized in games/comics, but they are not objectified like women are.

I’m with you for most of this, except “Starcraft doesn’t appear to make any blatant sexual offerings.” I distinctly remember being offered a spongebath and told to cough by the female medics.

I see your point, but aside from aggressive affirmative action, how would you go about seeding the gaming industry with women?

Part of that last point is that games, as a medium, are in their adolescent years. They’re no longer primitive kids stuff, they’re becoming more complex and advanced, and the industry itself is growing in size. Some games have placed more importance on thematic richness and engaging stories and characters, while some continue to present themselves as self-indulgent fantasies. This schizophrenic confusion over the intent of videogames is where these arguments originate. If games are to be seen as serious, important media that people can think about, instead of simply react to reflexively, they need to consider such things as what the portrayal of their characters means to the audience at large. If they’re just a guilty pleasure for the lowest common denominator, they can wallow in exploitation and unexamined biases all they want. Obviously, as with film, comics, and novels, there’s a wide range of different intents, and there’s plenty of immature treatment of serious issues in those media as well. But so far, games seem still to dwell mostly in the guilty pleasure arena, and if they are to expand beyond that region, some major titles will need to sacrifice their more childish tendencies and grow up.

If you take some time to play something other than the first person
shooter, third person shooter, or fighting games every once in a while,
then you will find the positive female characters that you so
desperately seek.

I’m like you; I don’t play shooter or fighting games. I play Morrowind, Civilization, the Sims and Pokemon. Various issues exist in those games but gender issues aren’t much of a concern.

And… this has WHAT to do with the issue exactly ? Those games aren’t shooters. You can’t tell someone who likes shooters, who wants to play shooters, but who is bothered by their portrayal of gender to go and play Age of Empires. It’s like telling someone who wants to see female protagonists in Pixar films that there’s no problem, they should just watch My Little Pony : Friendship is Magic instead. Or read a romance novel. Are you seeing the fallacy there ?

“I am trying to say that I am sick and tired of these internet bloggers
saying that the gaming industry caters to white teenagers, and that
minorities and women won’t play video games until they have a positive
portrayal of themselves that they can resonate with.”

And I am trying to say that given many if not most of those internet bloggers are women or minority gamers themselves it’s pretty obvious they realize that many women and minorities play those games despite the negative or nonexistent portrayal of themselves they can’t resonate with.

“I am not white, and I don’t want game companies to pander to me.”

Good, because this isn’t about you. You don’t even play those games “these internet bloggers” are complaining about, what does this whole thing even matter to you ?

“As for the Starfire/Catwoman controversy, what if it’s just hardcore fans who are looking for an excuse to bash DC Reboot?”

… What if it isn’t ?
Seriously, that’s ludicrous. As if hardcore comic fans needed to resort to sexism to find something to whine about.

“Gamers are rejecting the female characters that the gaming industry is
giving them because they don’t resonate with these characters”

Really ? Like Chell, or FemShep, or Samus, or that woman from Mirror’s Edge ? I’ve never played any of those characters and I’m sure people resonate to them differently but I gather they’re pretty popular, with both genders. Most of the feminist reaction I’ve seen to them is “why aren’t there more like that ?”.

Although I’d say as of the Metroid: Other M, Samus got set back quite a bit when they portrayed her as simpering and fragile in the presence of male authority figures.

More about bedside manner and medical ribaldry, but I concede that instance.

There are also these two videos by the Extra Credits crew:Video Games and the Female Audiencehttp://youtu.be/R8ZVZRsy8N8Video Games and Sexhttp://youtu.be/oFywW99Uvwc

Affirmative action isn’t the answer.I don’t want anyone in a job that doesn’t deserve it. My point was, if you want less male driven games, ladies, go get into the game industry. Go get into a job and do something about it. 

Yeah it’s gonna be tough and yeah some guys are gonna get on your case and judge you with the chant “Girl, girl, its a girl, girl” in their heads, but you just gotta keep trying. You can do it.

And if you just so happen to be a man who has a job in the gaming industry reading this message thread, take what’s being said into account and go make an awesome game. It’ll be considered different and people like different. 

I think part of the problem rifting the argument is an inability to visualize a reasonable voice on the other side. Given that there are not many females gaming it is highly probable that the men who get most defensive have never actually known a female gamer. Everyone that I’ve gamed with have known (and enjoyed gaming with) female gamers so I’ve never had a problem engaging them on this topic.

But, we’ve also talked about the fact that we known almost no other females who love to game or even view it as a positive thing. And this I would venture is why so many men defend video games as they are. I’ve talked to women who think games are vile, who don’t understand why their significant other wastes so much time gaming, who think games should be sanitized to protect children (even though there’s a huge audience of adults gaming) and none of these women (despite their many opinions) have a desire to bother trying games out. And then, unfortunately, there are the female gamers who actively use their sex to get what they want in game without working for it. For example, I’ve encountered females in WoW (as in, they announce they are female and they sound female on vent) who make a big to-do of being female. These were typically players who were always late, picked classes that were vital to the raid, frequently made everyone wait and if called on their actions they would play coy. So, if these are the only sorts of females who are visible to gamers then change will be crushingly slow.

Now, obviously these are not the only females voicing complaints. And I know that they are a minority of the minority. But, given that female gamers are a minority it is hard for men to meet females who they can just game with. I’d argue that actually gaming with the dissenters (and developers) is more likely to effect positive change than reasoning with them. If you can’t visualize that your opponent is like you then you are going to have a hell of a time ever finding the common ground.

I’d suggest watching more of his videos then. He has a VERY distinct style separate from Yahtzee. The only comparison I’d draw between them is that he talks unusually fast in this video and it seems an effort to cram as much dialog as possible into the length of the video. I greatly enjoy his videos and they’re always entertaining, and often thought provoking; sometimes even educational.

I’m curious who you are to decide if its a problem or not and to what severity it is? If someone tells you there is a problem they are personally unhappy with/uncomfortable with, who are you to say ‘Its not that big of a deal’? Isn’t that -very- dismissive of their feelings?

I personally feel it is a massive problem, a very offensive and hurtful one. Are you now going to tell me my personal feelings and opinions don’t matter?

I like Movie Bob!
It should totally be enough to say “women deserve equal treatment and fair representation”, but enough people don’t seem to get it that it’s nice to see someone try and reconcile the two groups.

Also, Oh My Gosh People! He addressed “Not every video game is Duke Nukem” in the first 50 seconds!
A. Don’t complain about a video you didn’t watch
B. “it’s not in the video games I play” doesn’t mean that it’s not a pervasive issue in the industry/medium, (and I call BS if your only example is a collecting game for ten year olds. I appreciate pokemon as much as the next child of the ’90′s, but that it is one franchise) because the argument was never “all video games do this”

Well, I don’t agree with the basis of your argument. It doesn’t matter how much Fox News whines about a War on Christmas, I can’t muster a single shit to give. Same goes for bigots offended by a Muslim community center two blocks from Ground Zero, or parents offended by homosexuality being brought up in Health class.

There are plenty of opinions that I don’t feel deserve my respect, though I’m sure the opinion holders’ feelings are hurt by that. It so happens that I think women complaining about the representation of female characters in videogames DO have a legitimate point, based on the massive evidence and greater societal context. All opinions are not equal.

I tend to have serious issues with Moviebob, but most of what he says here illicits agreement in me.  “Yeah, and the cows go moo” kind of agreement, but agreement nonetheless.

What bothers me is those series that have perfectly good female characters who aren’t bound by their sexuality being completely thrown under the rug because of the more sexualised characters.  In the case of Soul Calibur, everyone’s so caught up with the sexualised depictions and poses of Ivy, Taki and whatnot that nobody notices the likes of Hilde being clad head-to-toe in plate armour and standing defiantly, or precocious Talim depicted as a timorous but brave hero in fairly modest attire.  Considering how heavily Hilde was promoted when Soul Calibur IV came out, it makes me concerned that certain groups are more interested in attacking negative depictions of women than praising positive depictions of women.  Similarly, instead of looking to the cool non-sexualised female characters in the Dragon Age games like Wynne and Aveline, everyone’s hung up on Morrigan and Isabela.

I guess what I’m saying is accentuate the positive rather than the negative: instead of talking about how terrible the Dead or Alive games are and ask why every fighting game suffers to a similar degree of female sexiness, why can’t we promote and highlight the more interesting female characters and ask why there aren’t more April Ryans or Hammers in the gaming world?

Okay, I have no idea where to post this, but I think that it maybe relevant to the Starfire controversy. I did some searching around, and it turns out that the issue with Starfire is Older Than You Think. The problem with Starfire is that the way she looks and how she acts varies, especially since she’s not written or drawn the the same writer/artist. She’s always been drawn naked, wearing skimpy outfits, and sleeping with other men. The only thing that’s different about Stafire is her emotions. As Time Marches On, she went from passionate and energetic to bored and dull. The writers and artist should work more on her personality and emotions, and not her body. If the artists worked more on her facial expressions, and the writer on her personality, then Starfire will be the Starfire that the readers all know and love.THIS APPLIES ALL WRITERS/AND ARTISTS BOTH MALE AND FEMALE!
In short, good writing makes + good drawings= good character. Bad Writing + Bad Drawings= bad characters.
By the way, Reboot Starfire is not the worst thing that DC has done, three words my friends: Mother Of Champions. Look her up. Oh yeah, the link below should address the main problem with Starfire. It’s a year old and before the Reboot and Red hood controversy.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=314535

this argument is ridiculous. I’m gay/white/able-bodied/a woman and I can and do still create artwork featuring people of colour/disabled people/straight people/men. These people clearly have no sense of critical awareness of their own work.

I’m confused. Your argument here seems to be:
1. You are not a white teenaged male, and you don’t play the types of games that “gaming activists” consider to be catering to white teenaged males.
2. Therefore, “gaming activists” are wrong to say that people who aren’t white teenaged males are turned off by/pushed away from games that cater (or are perceived to cater) to white teenaged males.

I don’t see how point 1 supports point 2. If anything, it seems like point 1 could be taken as evidence supporting the argument you attribute to “gaming activists” — you, a gamer who is not a white teenaged male, avoid the games that even you seem to agree cater to that demographic.