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A Lesson in Humility

Dressing Like A Woman Made Dustin Hoffman Realize He’d Been Brainwashed [VIDEO]

In this interview with AFI archives from late 2012, actor Dustin Hoffman remembers the initial planning for Tootsie, the film in which his character disguises himself as a woman for a job. It was the first makeup test which led Hoffman to break down in tears over a huge revelation about men and women in our society. Take a look.

(via It’s Walky)

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  • RMCoyote

    *tears up*

    OK, my respect for him went up about 500 points. Just, THIS is how we should react when we discover how our culture has tricked us. This is how we should react when we discover how we have been screwed over and have been screwing over others: With tears. Because it IS heartbreaking.

    And the fact that he gets teary eyed all these years later after that realization, just, yes.

    /puts Tootsie on her ‘to see’ list

  • Linktoreality

    There was a great interview with him about this topic on NPR yesterday, as well!

  • Sarah Wildmon

    I love this.

  • Anonymous

    Wow. He really got choked up. I’m with RMCoyote, this makes me want to watch Tootsie for the first time ever. Props to Mr. Hoffman.

  • HeroOfGames16

    So wait, is this more of a “Don’t judge people on their looks” kinda message or more of a “Being physical attracted to someone is wrong” kinda message?

  • Melodia E. McIntyre

    I don’t understand where you got the idea for the second possibility from that video. He seems to have realized that he’s ignored so many women in the past because they didn’t fit the norms of what society deemed attractive and he feels like he’s been brainwashed to ignore “ugly” women.

  • HeroOfGames16

    So, it’s the former? Thanks.

  • Dessa Brewington

    I get the sense that most actors who crossdress for a role take a shallow view of it, but Hoffman here’s talkin’ the kinds of stuff you hear in trans circles. Accepting one’s own privilege is haaaaard.


  • Melodia E. McIntyre

    That’s how I’m interpreting it.

  • jp

    I think Dustin reveals two layers of brainwashing here. One, that only conventionally attractive women are worth being “asked out”. And two, that only the women you want to ask out are worth… anything.

    I’m totally fine with people not being attracted to me. But the next layer- where a mans absence of attraction towards me results in an overall discounting of my humanity- is what really pisses me off.

    Dustin Hoffman rocks- it takes a strong and compassionate person to make this type of realization- and to remain so affected by it years later. What a special human being.

  • ruxepokutivi

    мy coυѕιɴ ιѕ мαĸιɴɢ $51/нoυr oɴlιɴe. υɴeмployed ғor α coυple oғ yeαrѕ αɴd prevιoυѕ yeαr ѕнe ɢoт α $1З619cнecĸ wιтн oɴlιɴe joв ғor α coυple oғ dαyѕ. ѕee мore αт…­ ­ViewMore——————————————&#46qr&#46net/kkEj

    I don’t understand where you got
    the idea for the second possibility from that video. He seems to have
    realized that he’s ignored so many women in the past because they didn’t
    fit the norms of what society deemed attractive and he feels like he’s
    been brainwashed to ignore “ugly” women.

  • Anonymous

    Of course his unusual capacity for empathy is part of what makes him one of the premier actors of his generation. You can see that he understands the full weight of what he has lost out on

  • Curuniel

    Really great, much respect to him!

  • Nicholas Henry

    When he asks to be made from a woman into a beautiful woman is the moment my heart dropped through my guts.

  • lala

    I don’t think anyone ever has said “being physically attracted to someone is wrong.” I’ve seen that used as a straw man against feminists who talk about objectification, but I’ve certainly never heard anyone actually express that message.

  • Red VonMunster

    It’s a “men need to unlearn what they’ve been taught about women” ‘kinda’ message.

  • Red VonMunster

    It’s a “men need to unlearn what they’ve been taught about women” ‘kinda’ message.

  • Red VonMunster

    It’s a “men need to unlearn what they’ve been taught about women” ‘kinda’ message.

  • RodimusBen

    I hope seeing this will inspire a new generation to go out and check out Tootsie. It’s a classic movie, often hilarious and often touching for the reasons highlighted in this clip.

  • HeroOfGames16

    I’m not talking about feminism, I’m just genuinely asking what the message was. My sincere apologies if my misinterpretation(s) of that video offended people.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Whether someone is attractive and people wish to ask them out is determined by our genes and we have what is called a “minimum requirement for physical attraction”, which happens to be apparent to most. However, I agree with you that because someone doesn’t find you or I attractive enough to go out with is NOT enough reason to discount anyone’s humanity. That’s where people get the layers mixed up and there are those who confuse attraction with humanity-a complete idiotic fallacy and comparison to make.

  • HeroOfGames16

    It would be pretty shallow if people only saw merit in individuals if they were physically attractive enough. I mean, if I did judge people solely on their physical appearance, I wouldn’t have met some interesting individuals along the path of life, and that would be a shame.

  • Ally

    Wow…(crying). What an amazing person! Being a transgender woman, I could see his hurt…non conforming to society’s idea of an attractive/desirable woman. EVERYONE has something to offer..something you can learn from. To judge, is to deny yourself growth!

  • Charlie

    It scares the hell out of me that someone would actually ignore someone because they aren’t ‘beautiful’.

  • lala

    Sorry, you didn’t say anything offensive. It just sounded like you had been told one of the common misrepresentations of feminism.

  • Eisen

    The message is more like: to suddenly realise that women are treated differently than men, and one value a woman has to have in the eyes of most people is beauty. In this world women are ‘worthless’ if they’re not beautiful or fulfill certain physically standards, sadly.
    But the biggest part of the message is, that this kind of thinking is brainwashing. People don’t notice that this behavior exists.

    It’s like a color you only see if you got your eyes opened. And then suddenly you see it everywhere, and hell, it hurts to see it.

  • argentwolfwing

    This is amazing. I wish everyone could have this moment, women included.

  • Lisa Liscoumb

    Unfortunately some people are that shallow – time after time that’s been proven in tests where they have what are considered to be conventionally attractive people go out as themselves, and then have them go out as less attractive versions of themselves via makeup or appliances, and it’s been shown that people react more favourably to the “attractive” version, whether it be in social situations or job interviews.

  • fem_progress

    Dating sites are the best proof. Too often two of the first questions are your age and bra size.

  • fem_progress

    Rain Man is also an excellent movie. There, he tackles autism.

  • Roberta

    For those who haven’t seen Tootsie, go see it, it’s amazing. Hoffman does not play a caricature of a woman. He plays both a man and a woman, with all the sincerity that the role could need. Loved it and him!

  • Craig


  • Charlie

    I don’t think this is just about choosing someone for a relationship, in which you definitely have a right to choose someone you are attracted to. It’s about outright ignoring someone for the way they look when they could be an amazing person and a great friend.

  • Anonymous

    Everyone should see this film. Outstanding piece of work by an amazing actor.

  • Lea Tapp

    I love so much that he said, “all sexes”.

  • Lea Tapp

    It’s a common occurrence and yes, it is scary.

  • Luna Carya

    It amazed me how he reached his epiphany, the impact it had on him, and how he talks about it.
    And while it’s true that men are (firstly) directed by their eyes and what has been drilled into their minds about tastes and preferences, it’s also true that we women are also lead by our eyes towards what media and society describes as a desirable man. It goes both ways, and it’s great to acknowledge it.

  • Chris Rogers

    Some serious integrity, depth, and empathy here.

  • Space Marine Lysana

    That is why Tootsie is better than Mrs. Doubtfire by a longshot. It was a drag role for Robin Williams. It was a woman for Hoffman. Both movies remain somewhat problematic for many trans women for valid reasons, but there’s at least the awareness on Hoffman’s part that plays into it. He also is one hell of a feminist woman in that movie!

  • LifeLessons

    Thank you Dustin. :)

  • HeroOfGames16

    Well, I can understand age, at least, because I guess a lot of people prefer to date someone within their age category.

  • Ashe


    It’s one thing to notice the disparities between how women and men are treated, and another thing entirely to admit you used to actively participate in that treatment. It’s difficult, to say the least, and I have a lot of respect for the honesty and humility shown here.

    Here’s to more men like Dustin.

  • HeroOfGames16

    Well, I can empathize with that. I mean, even men experience certain enforced ideals or gender roles they have to fit in. Being all buff, muscular, strong, manly (whatever that may be).

    I can understand shallow behaviour, but not to the point they demonize or ridicule people who don’t fit in someone’s ideal beauty world.

  • David

    Good point. It seemed like he was saying not just that he wouldn’t ask her out but almost that he wouldn’t bother talking to her at all. Cause if you aren’t going to ask her out what would be the use of talking to a woman? It is pretty scary how shallow we can be. I know am guilty of it myself sometimes.

  • P. Murray

    Misogyny, bias, materialism: all things that our patriarchal society has brought men in the post-modern world up to consider natural behavior – and women to accept, regardless of their innate beauty. These are taught conventional forms of male dominance, bred into our ancestry and brought about by prejudiced systems of governance and falsified views on the female sex. As an Out person of color, I am so grateful to my female friends who, unlike some of my male peers, accepted the knowledge of my orientation without question or judgment: this, to me, is the beauty of woman – intuition and understanding that seems to come from nowhere and everywhere, and the ability to continually stay connected to the balance of the world itself, simply because they can.

    Dustin, you tha man ;-)

  • W L Simpson

    Beauty is only skin deep , it’s the soul that counts.

  • Anonymous

    I can’t get the video to play, either on PC or phone, And I don’t think he was interviewed by the AFI archives . . . I’ll bet that the interview video is from the archives instead.

  • Anonymous

    The first time I was introduced to this guy (we’ll call him J), J shook my hand limply while making eye contact over my shoulder and told me in a monotone voice that he was glad to meet me before resuming a more animated, eye contact conversation with the person who introduced me. J continued this non-eye-contact-minimal-necessary-speech interaction until I started dating his best friend. Suddenly, I was a PERSON because I had a role in his life (gf of best friend), entitled to actual eye contact and small talk conversations..

    The more I got to know J, the more I saw him pursue girls based on body type alone, and get into these horrible relationships because he was only judging them on one criteria. He talked about girls like a movie character – talking about their beauty and being bewildered by their actions because he couldn’t relate to them as human beings.

    I’ve had other experiences, but because I knew J best I think of him when I we talk about guys like this, and I hope that at some point he had this epiphany. Especially since he got married somehow.

  • Laura Probst

    I was going to post my own comment about how every time I’ve seen “Tootsie” (and I’ve watched the movie dozens of times over the years), I’ve always gotten the sense that Hoffman approached the role much more sympathetically and honestly than any other actor who’s been called upon to dress as a woman. Seeing this interview, now I know why. His epiphany regarding the sad state of our culture and its disdain of those women who are seen as lesser beings simply because they don’t conform to what is pounded into our heads as beautiful is heartbreaking in its honesty. My esteem for the man has increased exponentially.

  • Jason Pace

    I think this interview is from the late 90s and was just published to Youtube last year. Dustin hasn’t looked like this for quite some time (he’s 75 now).

  • Jodi DeVore

    An assertive outgoing man that is unattractive is more likely to date someone over an unattractive man that is shy and timid. Women go after personality more then they go after looks. If you watch a man how they interact with others and he gives a really sexy vibe there are some things looks wise you can overlook. And a lot of ugly features (weight, teeth, complexion, hair) can be fixed easier if you are a man. You don’t need to get plastic surgery more likely.

  • Steve Corner

    I agree, but not all women feel that way. A lot of them don’t like unattactive men, no matter WHAT their personality is like.

  • Aeryl

    Systemically, societally? No.

    Men can look unattractive and still get good jobs, career opportunities. If a woman doesn’t perform femininity well, we get NONE of those things.

  • Power Hungry Media

    Thanks for posting this. I love this video SO MUCH!! Amazing. Sharing it w/all the peeps at Speaking of Beauty TV. Really profound.

  • Anonymous

    I wept, too as I just watched this. This is so courageous. I always admired Dustin Hoffman, Now I love him. This video is so valuable and so courageous, it takes my breath away. I need little bits of inspiration like this to keep on keepin on and to continue to see that we human beings are definitely making progress. WOW!!! WOW! I am in awe!

  • Stephanie Crocker

    The North American obsession with “Celebrity” is pretty strong evidence that our majority/the press is pretty shallow.

  • Joanne

    It’s a sad social statement when it takes a famous man to make us hear the words women have been saying for decades, maybe centuries. JV

  • jennifer reich

    This was so moving- I posted this poem last week and thought I would share here…

    For Our Young Women

    You are so amazing

    And loved beyond compare

    Your beauty comes from in your soul

    Not from your weight or hair-

    We see you strong and playful

    Intelligent and wise

    And we can see into your heart

    When we look into your eyes-

    So don’t let any person

    Take away your bliss

    Let your spirit shine so bright

    That not one of us can miss-

    And when somebody puts you down

    Or judges who you are

    Know that they lack confidence

    And you must set the bar-

    For you are brave young woman

    And we need you here to guide

    To be exactly who you are

    With courage, strength, and pride~


  • Ava Artemis

    I so appreciate this video – and the comments.

    I’d like to add to the thoughts: Whether a woman is being valued for being attractive, or ignored for being unattractive, fundamentally, what’s going on is that she is being judged or valued for her appearance. She is being objectified. While being objectified for being beautiful may have its advantages, I propose that it can feel just as bad as being ignored, and it has its own set of problems.

    It is not “our society” these days that is the problem. Pretty much all of human history and civilization has objectified and commodified women for their physical appearance. And let’s face it: women are more attracted to beautiful men – though obviously the societal expectations and pressures on men to be attractive are not the same, and men are not valued so predominantly on this trait of physical appearance.

    This is a profound, beautiful and heartbreaking moment to witness. What a world of difference it would make, literally, if more men were to go through an experience like this.

    Thank you, Dustin.

  • Anonymous

    That’s a theory — a particularly reductionistic, mechanistic, and inadequate one, given the complexity of human sexual behavior. There’s little or no proof for it, and stating it as if it were established fact doesn’t make a lot of sense.

  • Anonymous

    “Tootsie” is a wonderful movie. Be prepared for it to be a little dated — it was made about thirty years ago — but I think it holds up beautifully.

  • Anonymous

    Most people, probably.

  • Anonymous

    You’ve already incorrectly narrowed the discussion. This isn’t just about dating rejection, but being dismissed from someone’s view point as important in any way. Women are far more unfairly judged on their looks than men.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you Dustin! You just gained my respect for life!

  • Bailey Fields

    ‘Wow’ what? Are you saying men and women are equally judged by their looks before anything else? Did you indeed miss the whole point of the video?

  • Anonymous

    When I think of the amount of energy I have spent in pursuit of people I *did* consider attractive — regardless of how inappropriate a relationship might have been along EVERY other dimension (or even along that one as well since they did not find ME attractive) — well, all I can say is I wish I had heard this back when I saw Tootsie. I would’ve had a better life.

  • Bailey Fields

    This. As much as I now respect the man and was moved by his ability to arrive at this understanding, it has much more power and holds much more weight / legitimacy when a man articulates this than if a woman tried to.

  • Bailey Fields

    Go back to the YouTube comments section.

  • Vashta Nerada

    OMG. I used to know somebody exactly like this- it’s so…odd. The more I saw it happen, the more creeped out I got.

    The “…bewildered by their actions because he couldn’t relate to them as human beings,” part- THIS, too. I’ve learned that’s a red flag for someone pretending to have empathy, because they don’t know how to feel it.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you so much for your deep seeing of this clip. My response was from the heart and that’s why it is so valuable to me. His vulnerability is a gift to humanity BECAUSE of courage and authenticity. Imagine a world where this is the norm. That is what I practice doing, and the more I imagine this, the more I seem to “see” it.

  • Anonymous

    LOVE!!! Your take away and you clarity sharing it. Keep on keepin on Laura!

  • Anonymous

    P. Murray. you tha man;-) in the very best sense of the compliment you just paid to Dustin Hoffman.

  • Anonymous

    It’s on my Must See list when it’s out on DVD!

  • Eisen

    Of course, everyone will experience this stuff in her/his life, but some experience this stuff less often as others, or in a different way. Also it’s not just about beauty.

    I really, really get it when men say that they have to live up to shallow ideals too, and experience objectification, but seriously: It is the fuck harder for women out there. It’s not like: “We men have these 4 flaws in our set, and you women have 4 different flaws in yours” – that’s the point: It’s not equal.

    Just ask yourself if you would live this life rather as a man or a woman, if you could choose.

  • Eisen

    There actually is something called ‘first impression’. This first impression is a mixture of genetic bias and experience, and of course manipulation of – for example – the media. A girl that looks like a covermodel will be attractive for most straight men on the first look.
    But that doesn’t mean this first impression is the only basis your brain decides to met someone. I think it depends on how important looks are to you. And in a society where it’s a unwritten law that a woman is, and only has to be desireable, if she is beautiful, it’s no wonder that many, many man don’t look for more in a date than a ‘pretty’ physical appearance.

    But the more the character of a person is important to you, the more the first impression is exactly that: A first impression, not more.
    I hope I’m not a isolated case there, but If I don’t like the character of a person, they are not attractive to me, not a single bit. But if a person is funny, and is a great conversational partner, I’ll find him/her usually attractive.
    “Smart is the new sexy”, but sadly this often counts only for men, not women.
    How often did you hear “…and my beautiful wife” – and how often: “…and my beautiful husband”?

  • Anita Jones

    Anybody who thinks men and women experience even nearly the same amount of hate and vitriol based on their looks needs to Google Marion Bartoli, the woman who just won Wimbledon. Tons and tons of men and a few women are up in arms on Twitter and Facebook because they think she’s not “hot” enough to deserve a tennis championship — and she actually is quite pretty and in shape. She’s been called an undeserving fat ugly slut, a cross between a man and an ape, disgusting, an ugly bitch, oily, a fat shit, a fat ugly sweaty pig, too ugly to win Wimbledon, and much more.

    Yes, men are too often treated unfairly and cruelly because of their looks, but it is NOTHING like the level of hatred you face as a woman for not fitting an extremely narrow set of standards. I’m 32 and I’m considering cosmetic surgery to do something about the aging I see on my face, because I’m already getting treated more poorly because of it. I only hope that more men as courageous as Hoffman start speaking about it, because I find when women talk about it it’s just dismissed as sour grapes — because apparently wanting to be judged on your personality and contributions to the world is unreasonable.

  • Bardsbrood

    I’ve heard of all this. As social scientist, I must express my skepticism of the science of “first impressions.” The way in which “first impression” theory was hypothesized comes form the cultural structure which was there before the scientists made the hypothesis. It is reductionist at best, but certainly ‘first impression” comes from the same cultural linguistic element as the idea for “sound bites.” and what is and is not attractive. i just don’t ‘buy’ into it or consume it. Look at beauty through the ages and it definitely changes form and shape.

  • Bardsbrood

    Not true, Vladicus. Something does not have to be proven time and time again to be a theory.

  • Bardsbrood

    I agree, he does a good job of emoting empathy and subtle nuances of it, in gesture and facial expression, by not saying too much.

  • cgthegeek

    I’ve been showing this to nearly every guy I know. Thanks for posting.

  • Anonymous

    I totally take your point. I was actually thinking about that when I wrote my comment. That’s why I added that there’s little or no proof (should have said “evidence”, come to think of it) for it, because that’s the point at which something is “just” a theory — when there’s no evidence to support it. As opposed to, say, the theory of evolution, which has metric shit-tons of evidence to support it (to use the scientific terminology). I really appreciate your bringing that up. Good teamwork, there.

  • Anonymous

    Well, there’s theory and Theory. There’s “I have a theory that the newspaper is late because the paper boy is a lazy ass” and then there’s “I have a Theory about gravity” or evolution or whatever “that encompasses a whole range of subsidiary branches and evidence thereof, and which has, indeed, been proven again and again” — but it’s still a Theory.

  • HeroOfGames16

    If I were aware of what society was before I came to existence (which is a bit contradictory but nonetheless), I would likely choose to stay non-existent because society as a whole is pretty messed up (better than a century ago, but still messed up).

    I’ve lived my whole life as a heterosexual male with autism. I’ve faced my own personal struggles, I’ve faced bias and prejudice regarding the “groups” I’m a part of but I’ve also seen injustice being committed or spoken towards women, homosexuals and whatnot. I’ve accepted my place and existence in life, so male. If I were born as a woman, I would likely choose to live as a woman because that is the life I had experienced.
    My apologies if this sounds kinda vague, but I guess there’s a certain beauty when it comes to living as a person, despite gender, despite sexuality, despite autism or the lack of autism. There are disadvantages and advantages being this or that, but it will always be part of your identity. I can understand that when it comes to autism, it’s undesirable, but it’s still a part of my identity.
    I think it even applies to gender and sexuality. Even if you outweigh the pros and cons, your choice also determines your identity. And I assume, despite the fact that life basically sucks for a lot of people, most individuals that have embraced their personal identity wouldn’t trade the world for living a life as another.

  • Anonymous

    Wow! Are you saying that women don’t judge by appearance? I have been judged by my appearance by women and I have seen and heard women do it. Why is that a revelation?

  • Bailey Fields

    Internalized misogyny is a thing?? No shit.

  • Christen Kimbell

    It’s pretty clear you’ve been wounded somewhere in your life. I get that, in fact we all understand that here. Strangely, though, we would expect it to make you *more,* not less, empathetic to the fact that other people experience it also. Perhaps it isn’t the fact that you’re physically unattractive that people don’t like? Maybe it’s that you’re self-centered enough that you make a discussion about women’s physical attractiveness all about your insecurities? Just throwing that out there.

  • Steve Corner

    I’m not going anywhere.

  • Steve Corner

    None of the above, but nice try.

  • Steve Corner

    Really? Prove it.

  • Steve Corner

    I wasn’t talking about jobs.

  • Christen Kimbell

    …. but you just did all those things, dude….

  • Steve Corner

    I’m talkng about real life, not tv shows or movies.

  • Guest

    No, I didn’t. But if you want to, for whatever reason, then knock yourself out.

    All I’m saying is women are not expempt from judging other people for their looks. It’s a simple concept.

  • Steve Corner

    No, I didn’t. But if you want to believe that, for whatever reason, then knock yourself out.

    All I’m saying is women are not expempt from judging other people for their looks. It’s a simple concept.

  • Christen Kimbell

    Of course not – and moreover, no one was saying that. Which is my point – you’re reading your own insecurities into something that was a lovely statement, and instead of agreeing with us, and realizing we’re all together against shallowness and judging people on appearance alone, you’re coming at us with your fists swinging – because all you are seeing right now is yourself. That’s what I’ve said three times now, Steve.

    The more you treat the other side with empathy, the better the other side treats you (those of us that are not shallow … on both sides.)

  • Bailey Fields

    haha having too much fun being a troll I see.

  • Bailey Fields

    You must be new here.

  • Aeryl

    Yes we know, you were conflating you’re inability to get laid to women’s inability to be financially and personally successful, because OBVS not getting laid is SO MUCH WORSE.

  • Anonymous

    Anyone have a transcript? I can’t view the video. Thanks!

    PS – “Tootsie” is one of my most favorite movies. :)

  • frankenmouse

    I hear you. I’ve had weight issues all my life and, for some reason, 205 lbs seems to be my magic number. Under 205, men start paying attention to me, I get flirted with, etc. Over 205, nothing. I might as well not exist to the male half of humanity.

    When I talk about it people say, “Oh, it’s just because you gained self-confidence after losing weight” and I’m all like, “No, I’m still the person I was before. My self-concept did not shift drastically with losing/gaining 5 lbs. Stop giving me platitudes and actually LISTEN to me!”

  • Eisen

    Evolution gave us mechanics to evaluate situations and also people in a fast way. Thinking in categories was very useful for humans, and still is. For example as a kind of “danger-detector”.
    But it has it’s flaws, and this kind of judging we see in form of judging people by their attractiveness, is a huge flaw of this evolutionary mechanic.
    We just have to learn that we humans are good and fast when it comes to thinking in categories, so we can see when we fall in one of the judging-traps.

    And of course ‘thinking in categories’ is a mechanic that takes place in the first impression. I don’t even get why someone could deny that a first impression exists, because everyone has it. You see a person first time and are starting categorising: man or woman, tall or short, you recognise skincolor, hair, clothing, facial expression or if this person looks healthy, neat or not – and in combination with your cultural upbringing and social influence you start to guess about that person in milliseconds.
    That’s the reason why we can think of people as likable or dislikable, even if we just saw them the first time, and didn’t speak to them once.

    But if we know we as humans do this, and are reflecting our actions and thinking, we can avoid things like Mr. Hoffman is talking about. Even if our reptile brain on the first sight of Tootsie is all: “nah, not pretty = not interesting at all” – we can rethink and outthink it.

  • Steve Corner

    Who said anything about “getting laid?” Do you always attack suppositions that aren’t there?

  • Steve Corner

    “…fists swinging?” Wow, what meds are you taking? They seem to be wearing off.I was referring to other men, not myself.

    You can be just as empathic to the men that are rejected as well, but that’s probably too steep of a challenge.

  • Steve Corner

    I’m not the one trolling. If you feel that making a perfectly legitimate observation, or any display of resonable dissent, is “trolling,” then some hope for humanity is definitely lost.

  • Steve Corner

    Being “new” or not, is irrelevant.

  • Aeryl

    Well then WHAT CONTEXT are you referring to in your abrupt unsubstantial comment?

  • AnnaB

    I’ve watched it several times. It’s still very powerful. I can’t get over it.

  • Anonymous

    Men have it to a much lesser degree, though. If “buff and muscular” was the be-all end-all for what constituted male attractiveness, boy bands and Justin Bieber wouldn’t have teen girls screaming at them, older girls and young women wouldn’t have swooned over Robert Pattinson, and Benedict Cumberbatch, Tom Hiddleston, and Ben Whishaw would not be veritable sex symbols to half of Tumblr. “Buff and muscular” is very much a male-driven ideal. Men want to be physically strong and powerful. Conversely, women are not encouraged to build muscle and strength– even today female athletes are frequently derided as “unfeminine”, like Sarah Robles, a world-class weightlifter living on $400 a month because she couldn’t attract the sponsorships that a man or a “feminine” woman would.

    Look at young female singers and actresses– they’re made up to look like grown women (while older women are told that they should try to look as young as possible). When Emma Watson was 15 years old, her breasts were “enhanced” by photoshop on a fucking Harry Potter movie poster. When it was rumored that Penelope Cruz– an Oscar-winning actress–might play the next Bond girl, all anyone could talk about was how she’d be *gasp* 40 years old by the time the next movie comes out. No one bats two eyelashes at the fact that Daniel Craig would be 47 at the same time.

    Yeah, everyone wishes to be attractive to members of the gender(s) they’re interested in, but men put far more pressure on women to fit a certain ideal than women put on men.

  • Anonymous

    This is so powerful. I started to tear up too. I’ve heard similar messages, but this was still a huge eye opener for me, especially as a man. I’m sharing this video on my Facebook in hope my family and friends will see it and reach the same realization that I did.

  • Steve Corner

    The same context Hoffman was referring to in the video. But i appreciate you showing your true feelings from the comments above ;)

  • Aeryl

    It’s not as systemic throughout pop culture. In fact, a much more common trope is the schlub with the girl “WAY OUTTA HIS LEAGUE”. The media allows a greater diversity in what’s considered attractive in men than in women, which is want Hoffman was referring to in the video. Hoffman not a conventionally attractive man either, but he’d never felt devalued as a human before.

    You came into a conversation about the systemic devaluation of women to say WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ and you think I care what you think about my feelings?

  • Anonymous

    like Amanda implied I’m impressed that people can profit $4319 in one month on the computer. did you look at this link w­w­w.K­E­P­2.c­o­m

  • Anonymous

    It is a wonderful, amazing movie.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    People are shallow by nature and yes, it’s a shame.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    No, you haven’t been reading the studies. If a man can go out with a 10 with no personality or a 8 with a great personality, they may choose the 8. Now if it were between a 10 and a 1 who was both overweight and unattractive, guess what the studies say?

  • Lisa Liscoumb

    Good point, williefess – it’s a very old picture of me. :) I just like it.

    EDIT – whoops, didn’t realise you weren’t replying to me. Ah, well, answer still stands.

  • Lisa Liscoumb

    Gigi, I agree with the first part. It’s where you have a 10 with no personality and a 3 or 4 with a great personality that I think they’re more likely to choose the 10, which is a shame.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    It is a shame. They have already identified most of the physical attributes which people are attracted to and looks are not something one can do much about-unless they have plastic surgery, which I know somebody who looks like a model now as a result. Lots of money and pain and trouble but it did change her life significantly. Unfortunately it’s worse for females than males. If a female is a 7 and up she has a good chance of being sought after. But anything less than a 6 and men, which choose their mates primarily based on physical attraction, will probably not ask them out no matter how charming or smart or funny or whatever she may be. I feel sorry for all that are not asked out for that is a horrible feeling. I know that a woman would choose an average looking man as long as he’s somewhat fit but then he must have some financial assets or the potential for it….or some kind of power. For women it’s about finding a husband who will be able to provide for the offspring. The only thing I can say is that men have a right to pick who they are attracted to even if it’s not fair. But they do not have the right to treat someone badly who’s waiting in line, or is an employee, or in some other social situation. Then I think one has to put their sexual desires away and treat each person the same. That’s just normal respect for another person-no matter what they look like.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    I don’t need to. The neuroscience studies and even psychology studies have already proven this and this is not even new information. The brain washing occurs when people don’t want to believe that men are just attracted for the most part to attractive women and that has been found to be in the brain since man walked the earth millions of years ago. Now if you think that was only 6,000 years ago, then I’ve just wasted my time.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Your right about all except that it’s not the media that tells us but rather we have told the media what we are attracted to and it decides to put out what people want to see. And studies show most people want to look at pretty people -especially men. Women are more concerned with personality and also the ability to take care of the family. And because I follow the science it doesn’t make me shallow because if anything, I too am immediately turned off if I don’t like a person’s personality-no matter how attractive. (And yes, you are an isolated case just as I am in regards to that). But unfortunately most people ….or I should say especially men…are going to require a good degree of attractiveness. Notice how when a wife gains weight the husbands complains yet not so much the other way around? I only met one man who told me “Look, I’m not going to lie. I married her because she is so hot looking. I do also like her personality and her other attributes but honestly without the looks I wouldn’t have married her”. I thanked him for the honesty for I prefer that then pretending to be greater than what is in our genes and has been since the beginning of time.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Actually as a scientist you should have looked at the similarities throughout history. The only thing that changed was that the curvedness of a woman was more predominant in the centuries before. (The actual .7 of waste to hip ratio is the only thing that varied slightly and by slightly I mean that the percentage was even less than .7 in past centuries-means small wasted in case one wonders). The facial features have remained the same and that goes for all around the world and in different cultures. I’m really shocked that you say you are a scientist for this is common knowledge in the scientific community.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    I agree that one should and can “think” their way out of it in social situations that do not involve sexual attraction. But when it comes to dating, a man cannot be attracted to someone who does not meet those features that our reptilian brain has us liking. He cannot “think” his way into being attracted to her. I have met even women that tried to be attracted to someone who was overweight because they felt guilty and they wanted to be a better person. In the end she couldn’t make herself be attracted and it was a big mess.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Thanks! Science must be proven time and time again. And when it does make a mistake, Science must adapt and find the true and correct answer or it’s not considered Science at all. Hypothesis is an assumption, but theory is proven, even though sometimes the word theory is used such as “I have a theory”…in reality Scientific theory has already gone through the ringer of tests and the outcome must be consistent on all the results.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Thank You! Well said.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    The idiot who says the science community is diverse gave an analogy of two different sciences. There are hundreds if not thousands of different types of science. Yet there still must be a “consensus” among the scientific community with in the category one is testing. And to even give an example of a physics scientist to a neurologist shows you don’t know what you are talking about. That’s not even a sane comment. Consensus happens within a particular science. That means we don’t ask a geologist what’s happening in your dendrites. That would be insane. It appears your lacking an anterior cingulate cortex-that’s where logical thinking takes place which means I just wasted time. If you want to read the studies, just google and you’ll find them all there. I do research for a living and you are probably just one with the new found “primitive brain”. Go google it! I’m not doing work for you. I only come with facts. If you wish to believe other-then do so. Just don’t cry about looks and it’s affects to me for I am completely comfortable with the way evolution has led us. I’m just waiting for the rest of the primitive brains to die off….

  • Eisen

    First, I think it’s petty how you try all the way with: “But you’re a scientist! But every scientist should know this what I know!!” – it just shows you have no clue about the different sciences that are out there, and about contradictions. Many theories of evolutionary psychology (yes, waist-hip-ratio and similar stuff are the ugly children of a science called evolutionary psychology) are not based on facts, mere assumptions. People (and therefore magazines) just tend to love all the ev-psych stuff, because it gives easy answers to generally uncritically people that belive everything if it tends to confirm their actual mindset. To make it short: The WHR research does not support these statements – it just makes measureable what most heterosexual men in modern (now!) western culture find attractive. And that’s it. For the future: Genetics/Evolution that influence behaviour are a very complicated matter. If someone gives you a fucking simple, and universal answer, it is often false – at least it is worth checking the actual research and the facts.

    And now a bit more about WHR: It is not common knowledge (not in science, an not ‘knowledge’ anyway) because there is a big lack of facts about the “magic” waist to hip ratio. There are eras where we have almost no paintings of female bodies, sculptures or anything else. And often the things we do find can’t be labeled as an accurate display of female form – like the Venus of Willendorf. We don’t know if she is only a metaphor and therefore an example of attractiveness in a spiritual way, or if is truly a sculpture of “this woman is effing sexy”.

    Also there were times where “boyish” women were praised – they bound their breast to be flatter, and this would certainly not match an evolutionary “beauty pattern” – and foremost it wouldn’t match for ALL HUMANKIND. There a different cultures, you know? And also the WHR differs in groups that are even from the same country. Even if there are some similaritys, it is certain that social movements and therefore social behaviour and status are often more powerful than our genes.

    This is the reason because violence in cultures with laws against violence and police forces constantly drops – because violence is marked as a bad behaviour, even if you have a right to be angry with someone. But even if someone smashed your car – in front of the law it is not the right thing to answer this with violence.
    This is quite a new thing in human history, and there was a shift from “an eye for an eye” to the laws nowadays.

    Even if your instinct tells you: “Hit him, hit him hard!”, there’s (often, not always) another voice that fears the consequences, that fears the law, the social stigma and fears what other people would think of you, if you hit this guy and therefore be guilty for assaulting someone.

    Now some say that violence lies in human nature, like it is said about rape, about cheating and many other things. But apparently many of us overcome these things, and in the eye of communities these behaviours went from “normal” to “not acceptable” – and that’s a good thing.

    And now about attraction: I never said you could be attracted to everybody if you just try. But I’m very sure waist to hip ratios and a pretty face don’t matter as much as you think – because whats with all the men out there that allready are in love with women that don’t fall in patterns of modern beautystandards? Are this men evolutionary outcasts, anomalies?
    It’s no problem to say that you are more attracted to women that could be on a magazine cover, but it is a lie to say you could never be attracted to a woman that doesn’t fit this standards and it’s because of evolution – this is just an alibi to feel better. There ist always the possibility that you will be attracted to a women even if she doesn’t is attractive to you at first. If you would spend time with her and get to know her, things might change.

    I personally had it often the one or other way, as I’m sure many people do.

    There is someone you find incredibly attractive, but when you talked to them, suddenly they appeared dull and boring to you, sometimes you don’t even thought them as attractive anymore. Yes, you -saw- that this person was pretty, but you were not attracted anymore.

    And than there are women and men alike that fell in love with someone from work or someone they simply spend time together, because suddenly they looked at them and they were attracted.

    Attraction is something that can happen on first sight, but that doesn’t mean it has to stay that way or couldn’t change. Sometimes it doesn’t change, but sometimes it does.

    And to be clear: I don’t say you should try constrainingly to feel all people in the world are attractive – but: You don’t find out, if you dismiss every woman on first sight, just because she isn’t ‘pretty enough’ on first sight. What Hofmann said was, that women are people. They can be interesting, they can be fun, but many men don’t even speak to them because beauty is the only thing that is interesting to many men.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Too much garbage to read that novel. When you don’t even know they know about the .7 hip to waist ratio from skeletons and not from pictures. As soon as I see incorrect logic or false analogies, then I know I’m talking to someone who does not have a clue of what is science and what is not.

    Glad I didn’t waste my time reading the rest.

  • Eisen

    There are simply not many full preserved human skeletons from all eras of humandkind – and also it should be clear that if you cook down WHR on the bones of a woman, men should have developed x-ray vision till now.

    Because the message would be, that men are attracted to the bone structure, and that layers of fat would not matter at all.

    Maybe you should take to some serious scientists in evo psych, and they will tell you that they also take looks at art from certain eras to “guess the flesh above the bones”.

  • Eisen

    “Women are more concerned with personality and also the ability to take care of the family.”

    To fast and to simple conclusions are the poison of science. To you, your statements and the statements of WHR seem causal, but they are not.

    If WHR would be a matter of fertility, it would make sense that also women would choose their mate by his looks, because it’s also his set of DNA that matters for offspring. And because how a man looks shows how healthy he is, how ‘fit to protect and feed the family’ (in evo-psych terms). But oh my – how many dads have visible abs? How many have an ideal BMI?

    So why should women not only today, but also in the ‘stone age’ care about the personality of their mate? Was there such a wide spectrum of personality? And how you meassure the ‘ability to take care of the family’ in such times if not with muscles and a big stature?
    So how does it come that nowadays the males are ruled by this “ancient evolutionary knowledge” called WHR, and women don’t seem to care much about how many muscles her partner has and how full his hair is?

    One explanation would be: Men are simply to dumb to get rid of evolutionary influence, and women are simply more advanced and get over this stuff.

    Or: It doesn’t work this way anyway.

    But because you shrugged off everything that not matches your mindset I just give you links to some studies:

    And because I’m not sure you’re smart enough to read them properly, here is a teaser:

    “however, if standards of beauty are instead no more than artefacts of culture, they should vary across cultures3, 4, 5, 6.
    Here we show that male preference for women with a low waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) is not culturally universal, as had previously been assumed.”

    “This manipulation allowed us to use spatial statistical analysis techniques to show the following: (1) Observers’ fixations for attractiveness and body fat clustered in the central and upper abdomen and chest, but not the pelvic or hip areas, consistent with the finding that WHR had little influence over attractiveness judgments.”

  • Gigi Jacobs

    I don’t need to. I’ve talked and studied and done enough research to know how they arrived at that conclusion. Yours on the other hand is a result of your own mind that wants to believe in something that seems nicer to you. That happens all the time. I suppose you believe in god too? That figures.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    You’re a waste of time. Period. Not worth mine. : )

  • Gigi Jacobs

    “Complexity of sexual behavior” is made up in your mind…which doesn’t seem very complex to me. See ya all.

  • Eisen

    Sorry but no, I’m an atheist.

    And I think you are the one that want’s to belive in something thats ‘nicer’ to you. Isn’t it nicer to give up responsibility for your own actions, so you don’t have to say: “Yes, sorry I’m just this shallow. To me only looks matters.”

    I don’t even know why you are so angry about this and behave like a troll. What’s in it for you?

    If you think you don’t even have to read the studies because you now everything already its not me that embraces delusion. If you are with science, you should read them, at least partly. I read the pro-WHR ones, just to look into it.

    WHR preference exists. But it’s origins are not evolutionary but culturally. Studies show us that even in the US the numbers differ from each other if you are making experiments with subjects from different ethinicities. One study showed that british men didn’t prefered 0.7, nor was their preference measurable with WHR but correlates more to fat storage and BMI. In quite other cultures as the western one the men tend to prefer quite higher WHRs than .7.

    And on the other hand, WHR guarantees nothing: Just because men are attracted to .7, that doesn’t mean they end up with a woman of .7. And studies showed that women also have a preferred WHR (also different ratio in different cultural groups) in men. But even if you could choose your partner freely because you have an awesome WHR, many good looking females (and even good looking men) end up with partners that are not equally attractive. So even if it was an evolutionary, universal behavior in all humandkind (and it’s not) – that would show us that it is not so powerful that men and women alike couldn’t overcome it.

    Another fact is, that .7 has no correlation to fertility. Fertility don’t shows itself in a waist-hip-ratio, but in healthy looking skin, hair etc. At least I didn’t find anything about, how a .7WHR-build could give away how good a women gets pregnant.

    But when it comes to birth, women with broader hips have an advantage to women with smaller hips, of course. Therefore a woman with even wider hips as .7 should have been preferred, because waist doesn’t matter in birth-terms, and the wider the pelvis, the better.

    The only thing one can make out of this facts is:

    - that WHR is cultural and certainly not universal

    - that it is only ONE factor of partner-preference (and there are many others, incl. cultural and social factors)

    - and therefore the influence of the WHR-factor in partner choices is also a cultural thing. If cultural values are repeating over and over that women with a western beloved .7 is the thing, it may get a major factor in individuals. If one has other influences in life, WHR doesn’t matter as much.

    Maybe I now get another charming TL;DR from you, but it doesn’t matter. I presented studies and facts, you just throw insults arround. I don’t believe you one second that you work in science.
    This will be my last answer, because everything is said. If you still refuse to read those studies, I certainly can’t help you any further.

  • Anonymous

    Are you by any chance drinking before commenting here? 10 days ago you thanked me for my well expressed comment; a few days later you’re insulting me here. It’s not that I care much, but it does make you look a bit silly. Especially when you say things like the comment above, which is just laugh-out-loud ridiculous.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    Let’s see if I find one of your comments to make sense, then should I not thank you for it? After all this is not personal-this is science. And if you make a comment that does not make sense, then should I not tell you? You seem to think that one who is sane must always respond the same way no matter what is said. I happen to find that a bit insane for to be truthful all the time regardless of what I thought of a previous thought is called “honesty”. Now, are you drinking?

  • Anonymous

    No, I think if you first praise and then insult someone’s intelligence, it sounds as if you’re a little bit confused. Of course, if you limited yourself to talking sensibly about what it was in the comment I made that you disagreed with, instead of implying that I must be stupid, you wouldn’t have that problem.

    But none of that really matters anyway, since you already make yourself look absurd by denying flatly that human sexual behavior is complex. That’s such an unbelievable howler that there’s really no coming back from it.

  • Gigi Jacobs

    MissDelusionalNormaDesmond, if you can’t take someone being honest, then you are in a sad situation. And none of this matters anyway, since you made yourself look absurd by denying flatly that human sexuality is much more objective and simple that the delusional would like to think. I don’t suppose you’ve read the chart statistics based on one’s likelihood of becoming romantically involved based on structural bone features, height, weight, and a few more. That would be too much to ask of someone who decides to call herself, and appropriately if I might say, NormaDesmond.

  • Anonymous

    People who have a rational argument to make are usually able to do so without resorting to childish name-calling. These “chart statistics” that supposedly prove that a topic as broad and varied as human sexuality as a whole is “simple” — if they’re so thoroughly convincing and authoritative, then why not provide a link to them, since they would so totally support your claim?

  • Anonymous

    People who have a rational argument to make are usually able to do so without resorting to childish name-calling. These “chart statistics” that supposedly prove that a topic as broad and varied as human sexuality as a whole is “simple” — if they’re so thoroughly convincing and authoritative, then why not provide a link to them, since they would so totally support your claim?

  • Lebrawn James

    Wow what an amazing epiphany from the famous actor Dustin Hoffman….he should try dressing up as an unattractive average joe next to see what rejection really feels like from a personal point of view….And really, the premise of this whole argument is that ugly girls have fantastic personalities? I can attest that that is a lie, hotter girls are almost always cooler because they simply have better lives than their ugly counterparts. This is all a lie from ugly girls who feel bad……
    Brb Heart broken by amazing beautiful girl
    Brb Love of my life
    Brb Can never truly recover
    Brb NO ugly girl can ever make me feel like that