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If we got angry about this kind of thing we'd be angry all the time

Even DC President Diane Nelson Thinks Wonder Woman is “Tricky”


Another day, another person in the entertainment industry saying that making a Wonder Woman movie would be “tricky.” Except this time it’s coming from Diane Nelson, President of DC Comics. I’ll give Nelson some credit here: at least she seems to be saying that despite Wonder Woman’s alleged “trickiness,” she’s got to be made a priority by DC and Warner Bros. for a film or television adaptation.

In Nelson’s words, to The Hollywood Reporter:

We have to get her right, we have to. She is such an icon for both genders and all ages and for people who love the original TV show and people who read the comics now. I think one of the biggest challenges at the company is getting that right on any size screen. The reasons why are probably pretty subjective: She doesn’t have the single, clear, compelling story that everyone knows and recognizes. There are lots of facets to Wonder Woman, and I think the key is, how do you get the right facet for that right medium? What you do in TV has to be different than what you do in features. She has been, since I started, one of the top three priorities for DC and for Warner Bros. We are still trying right now, but she’s tricky.

And here I might refute the idea that Wonder Woman’s origin is either too complicated or too old fashioned by mentioning Marvel Entertainment’s successful mythological superhero blockbuster Thor, but frankly, we just put up a video that says everything I would otherwise say on the subject. So go watch that if you want a good rebuttal. I’d rather talk about one question previously when THR asked Nelson who she had at the top of the priority queue to get a movie adaptation, and her answer was “Sandman is right on top. I think it could be as rich as the Harry Potter universe.”

Here’s the thing: Sandman is an incredible story, a great comic, and one that has been the gateway into comics for legions of female comics fans because of its many, many, central female characters who were painted with just as much concern and thought as its male ones. But The Sandman absolutely does not have a “single, clear… story.” It is a dense, mythologically packed work where many subtle plot threads are gradually woven into an inevitable climax, and it demands the reader have read widely, broadly, and carefully to fully appreciate all of its themes and elements. You see, there are lots of facets to The Sandman, and I think the key is, how do you get the right facet for that right medium? What you do in TV has to be different than what you do in features.

Oh, and there’s one other thing: nobody outside of the comics world knows who Sandman is, and Wonder Woman has been an American icon for more than seventy years.

Wonder Woman is tricky because our culture has made it tricky. And I do sympathize with anyone trying to get a Wonder Woman story out to a mainstream audience through a massive, conservative production studio like Warner Bros. Because despite The Hunger Games, despite Snow White and the Huntsman, Twilight: Breaking Dawn Part 2, Prometheus and Brave, all of which out-grossed The Bourne Legacy, The Expendables 2, Wrath of the Titans, John Carter, Looper, Battleship, Total Recall, and Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, last year… despite the fact that the last two major successful blockbusters that Warner Bros. has managed to wring from the DC universe, The Dark Knight Rises and Man of Steel, both had critics divided except for the overwhelming consensus that Selina Kyle, Lois Lane, and Faora-Ul were the best things about the movie…

Despite all that, Hollywood hasn’t greenlit a single movie with a female comic book character in the lead since 2005.

So yeah, I sympathize with the people trying to repackage Wonder Woman to a room of studio execs who purposefully bought DC Comics in so that they’d have a better chance of grabbing the young male demographic, and are horrified of the idea of presenting something with even the slightest whiff of any version of the feminist action hero except the Strong Female Character (link contains enough context to understand which kind of SFC I’m talking about) lest the apparently very fragile masculinity of that demographic be so threatened by the presence of a well known cultural icon that they decide not show up for the show. But, ladies and gentlemen, it is not Wonder Woman, or Amazons, or Themyscira that’s tricky. It’s Man’s World.

(via DC Women Kicking Ass.)

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  • AverageDrafter

    Talk, Talk, Talk, DC. Put up or shut up. Its getting old.

  • Anonymous

    The Clash of Titans reboot manage to get a sequel and the aforementioned Thor proves that DC is talking out the side of their mouth.

    Diana is no more harder to adapt then the X-Men or Avengers movies were.

  • Anonymous

    It’s sad that Nolan decided to blow up the Dark Knight franchise when he left because a Catwoman movie starring Hathaway (with Nolan involved) would go a long way in proving that a superhero(-ish) movie led by a woman could work. I feel that with the new Batman reboot coming, there is just another chance to screw up the Catwoman character.

  • Anonymous

    The reason that Superman and Bats have a “clear compelling story” is because of constant, repeated exposure. There have been multiple film series, multiple TV shows, multiple animated series – of COURSE their stories are recognizable, because we have been hearing them again and again for over half a century. Despite the disparity in exposure, Wondy is still an icon – is an island of Amazons really that much more far-fetched than an orphan from an alien planet? Or, well… Batman.

  • Anonymous

    Well, Sandman would be easier to adapt in that there’s one series from beginning to end, not counting the spin-offs. There aren’t multiple reboots/redos for the origin story or tons of alternate continuity tales. No “Ultimate Sandman” or “All-Star Sandman” or anything of the like.

    BUT, that excuse doesn’t really work because pretty much EVERY superhero so far has had tons of confusing comic book reboots and conflicting origins and so on. It’s just a matter of choosing what works and discarding what doesn’t.

  • Nat

    In all seriousness when Batman Begins came out, History Channel did a great show on how a super rich kid could become Batman (and by extension Green Arrow). Which is something I always loved about Batman is that any fantastical elements aside, it was very ‘real’ to me.

  • Mina

    I understand the anxiety around not screwing up a Wonder Woman movie and wanting to get it right. I would definitely be sad if a Wonder Woman movie finally was made and it turned out to be terrible. But the excuse of her origin being “tricky” has got to go. I have yet to read a single Wonder Woman comic, but I know her origin story. It’s really a pretty simple one, no more complicated than Superman’s. That is the excuse of all the excuses that baffles me the most.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    The animated film they did was OK, but I’d hope they’d look to the New 52 incarnation for story material. So far, it’s much more compelling.

    But, seriously, why not just ripoff Xena? Or better yet, make a Xena movie. Who owns Xena? Get to work!

  • Nat

    I will fully admit that for all my fringe geekery I had no idea who Wonder Woman was until I started reading articles about her on Mary Sue. And I mean that in I knew it was Wonder Woman but even at 25, the image that comes to mind is Linda Carter and ‘Wonder Woman!’. I had no idea she was an Amazonian Princess or that her name is Diana. Nothing. To me she has always been some tall lady that runs around in star spangled spandex and If I wasn’t a constant lurker on TMS, I probably wouldn’t even be inclined to see a Wonder Woman movie because I would expect cheese and weirdness.

    Like I said, I’m a fringe comic book fan. I watched the batman cartoon as a kid and have seen the movies and I try to make myself knowledgable on the characters when they crop up.
    Do I want to see a strong female led movie or show? Absolutely. Will I go see a WW movie? Sell me on it and I might dish out the $10.

  • Mina

    I would love a Xena movie. Buuuuut it would make me slightly sad to see someone besides Lucy Lawless being Xena. (On the other hand, the new Xena could turn out to be just as awesome and lovable, so who knows.)

  • Anonymous

    And it’s not like the film would have to focus on the Amazons – The main point of Wonder Woman has always been about Diana discovering the “outside world”

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    She’s not…well, OK, she’s a bit old for the part she played…so, they could change the story…update it, move it down the timeline, or she could be another character? An adversarial general, something along the lines of what Xena used to be, prior to her do-gooder days. She was fantastic in Spartacus, prior to completely losing her shit in season 2. I could definitely see her in a power role.

  • Mina

    Yeah, I could probably go for any of the above.

  • Anonymous

    They are right about one thing though, they HAVE to get it right. Superman and Batman have the luxury of shitty movies. Batman & Robin existed, but we still got more Batman. Wolverine: Origins existed, and we still got more Wolverine. If Wonder Woman the Movie isn’t fantastic, not only will we not get another, but we also won’t get other fantastic superheroines because, well, because XKCD said it best: http://xkcd.com/385/

  • http://runt.org/ Adrian

    DC/WB need to draw up a plan and stick to it. Diane Nelson is telling us that Wonder Woman is a top 3 priority but there are no results; it doesn’t add up. Here’s what we do… OPERATION AMAZON!

    1. Create and release more regular Wonder Woman books/series. Promote them in both mainstream and niche communities. Promote free first issues through Facebook. Using female writers and artists couldn’t hurt…

    2. Create, release, and commit to a regular Wonder Woman ANIMATED SERIES. Air/promote across the TimeWarner family (Turner, WB, CW, etc). Promote it in theaters and online.

    3. Animated series means TOYS: Wonder Woman TOY LINE. Get LEGO to play along. Remember, both kids AND ADULTS will go crazy for Amazon action figures and Paradise Island playsets.

    4. Speaking of LEGO, talk to Travellers Tales and get the LEGO Wonder Woman game going.

    5. I don’t know where CW is with their Amazon tv show, but I certainly hope you’re behind/supporting this.

    6. Keep making more and SMART promotional partnerships. I don’t wear makeup but I thought the MAC Wonder Woman line was awesome! Maybe I SHOULD– nah, but I might still buy it for my wife. Just add a Nubia line, please

    Anyway, by now you should have all the money. ALL THE MONEY. Now making a Wonder Woman movie should be easy! Actresses will be tripping over each other to star in THE Wonder Woman movie. Re-hire Joss Whedon to co-write a script with Bruce Timm and Gail Simone, get Katherine Bigelow to direct, and then start planning to celebrate overtaking Avatar and Gone With the Wind as the most sucessful film of all time.

  • Samuel
  • http://rightcrafttool.blogspot.com/ Sign Ahead

    It’s odd to hear an executive say things like this about her company’s product. I’d expect her to build the product up, not condemn it with faint praise.

  • Alyson L

    They probably think its “tricky” because they don’t want the fact that she was made from clay and given life to piss of the Christian Right… you know there would be an uproar about how DC was trying to push paganism on people.

  • http://runt.org/ Adrian

    I think that’s just another thin excuse on their part. Clash of the Titans. Wrath of the Titans. Percy Jackson. Troy… I can go on, and that’s just the Greek gods.

  • Anonymous

    All this coded talk about how WW is “tricky” to pull off is starting to fray my nerves (and don’t get me started on Black Panther). Anyone with the smallest bit of common sense realizes that the problem they see is how they are going to get guys to buy into a female superhero.

    It’s easy, DC. Just make it good.

  • Amber Barnes

    This is the same problem as female-lead video games. Even if they’re good, they’re not promoted, thus they don’t sell. Even if they become cult hits (Beyond Good and Evil, Bayonetta, etc), with critical acclaim and praise, its treated as a one-off. A fluke. A rare hiccup that was good. And you’re going to drag any sort of praise out of the douche-bro gallery’s mouth with pliers.

  • Amber Barnes

    I think the problem is less the fact that its Greek Mythology, its the fact that its someone who believes in the Greek Pantheon in modern times, and as someone we’re meant to see as heroic and sympathetic. Plus the very goddess-centric bint of Wondy would only rile the Religious Extremists even further. But it is an excuse.

  • Anonymous

    Well, Sandman is on top because Harry Potter= $$$. “What do have that’s closest to Harry Potter? Sandman. Ok, let’s do that.”

  • https://twitter.com/adamhowardcross Adam Cross

    “She doesn’t have the single, clear, compelling story that everyone knows and recognizes”

    then make one? …
    an origin story movie wouldn’t be a bad place to start. It’s only “tricky” if you make it tricky. quit messing around, DC.

    (though I’m sure the “tricky” part is down to how they represent her, will the outfit be her signature outfit? or do you go for something new and less 1940′s and risk pissing off fans?)

    I don’t know.

  • Ross Van Loan

    Make her a lesbian Leonidas with zero fear & tolerance for mortal male malarkey. I’m talking full-on Amazonian warrior ethos that should come across not as cheesecake but as hot girl raging Achilles. If fourteen year old boys, and inner fourteen year old boys, aren’t intimidated and at least a little discomfited I maintain that something major is wrong with her presentation.

  • http://runt.org/ Adrian

    I guess the last thing I’d expect the movie industry being worried about is offending someone.

  • Amber Barnes

    They care when it becomes a good excuse to not do something they dont want to do.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Completely losing her shit in Season 2 Spartacus was the best Lawless performance EVER.

    Even I was blindsided by her complete transformation when Ilythia went into labor, and I’d been smelling fish since she started her “touched by the gods” act.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    It’s not a “clear compelling story” because allegedly only women would empathize with it.

    Of course everybody can empathized with an orphaned billionaire and an alien that’s the sole survivor of his race, but WOMEN, not in a million years.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    MY GOD YES GIVE ME A SELINA KYLE MOVIE!!! STARRING ANNE HATHAWAY!!!

    Have her ditch Bruce in Venice, steal what money he has left, and run back to Gotham to wreak havok on those that are left.

    She had better chemistry with Joseph Gordan Levitt anyway.

  • Anonymous

    So long as they avoid the awful cheap-looking pleather from the Kelly pilot. Maybe if the embraced something that would be suited for a greek warrior – in the spirit of this: http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3594/49738561729869140ac6.jpg

  • Dessa Brewington

    And this is precisely why they’re so hesitant to make a WW movie. They want to sell to those 14 year-old boys, too.

    But I totally agree with you.

  • Dessa Brewington

    Yep. I’m a fringe fan too, and I only got hip to WW years back when my comics nut friend put some in my hand and told me to read. Years later, a lot of the details had faded from memory (I just remembered she was awesome and not much else), and it was almost a bit of a surprise to catch back up on Wonder Woman’s story.

    Anyway, forget the cheesy 70′s show. Not seeing a WW movie because of that would be like not seeing Batman because you don’t dig the cheesy vibe of the 60′s batman show and movie. This is 2013. Anything can be gritty!

  • Anonymous

    Or this since the updated Superman’s uniform for Man of Steel http://lilyinblue.deviantart.com/art/Wonder-Woman-Armored-362198412

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Argh, we will NEVER agree on that. I was with you, the smelling…fish thing (I have NEVER heard that before, thankyaverymuch), but when she finally DID lose it, and just (spoilers) toss herself and the baby off the cliff edge, I was totally dismayed. I LOVED Ilythia and Batiatus. The show was never as good once they were both out of the picture. I haven’t even seen any of the final season…too sad-face that, with all of his actual foes gone, they brought in a late-90′s alternative band Julius Caesar.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I liked Shauna Trpcic’s sketches she did for Whedon, had her in a trench coat.

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    I just want a really good Catwoman heist move. Is that so much to ask for?

  • Ross Van Loan

    Fourteen year old boys should never be used as a bellweather for anything but fourteen year old boys.

  • Ross Van Loan

    Clash of the Titans was terrible ; Thor was serviceable. Neither was carried by women. Indeed, there were hardly any in either. To make a movie with a gal protagonist is to, in the minds of movie moguls, flirt with financial disaster.

  • Anonymous

    “To make a movie with a gal protagonist is to, in the minds of movie moguls, flirt with financial disaster.”

    Aliens, Hunger Games, Underworld and Resident Evil – are proof that a female protagonist can sell a movie.

  • Brett W

    I think the biggest problem is not Wonder Woman herself, it’s that you have to make her mesh with the larger universe she’s in somehow. Batman and Superman can mix very well because they have complementary personalities and methods, plus their stories both fit squarely into the realm of what could be loosely called “science fiction”. Wonder Woman’s gods and magic stuff creates a massive tonal shift when she’s introduced to that dynamic. The fact that Man of Steel, for all its fantastical elements, takes place in a clear facsimile of the “real world” doesn’t help matters. Marvel solved this issue with Thor by using the “oh, they’re not really ‘gods’, just super-advanced extradimensional aliens with uber-science” loophole. But then again the MCU was, from the start, a little fantastical and removed from reality in a way that the universe of Man of Steel is decidedly not. So, will the Thor approach work for Wonder Woman? I’m not sure, but I suppose it’s worth a try.

    Next thing is that you have to make Wonder Woman distinct from and complementary to the other two powerhouses she must inevitably stand beside. Superman can do things that Batman can’t do, and vice versa. This is what makes them a good team. What does Wonder Woman bring to the table? What can she do that Superman can’t? In terms of personality, the Trinity practically writes itself (Batman = Spock, Superman = Kirk, Wonder Woman = McCoy and call it a day.) Character interaction between these three should be fairly easy. What’s tricky is finding a way for Diana’s powers to not make her just a female Superman in terms of ability. Maybe this means her traditional power set needs to change or evolve. (There will be outcry from the purists, but then again, when is there NOT outcry from the purists?)

    I think for a Wonder Woman film to work, you need to take the most iconic elements of the character, scrap the rest, and possibly rebuild her from the ground up. The fact that there’s no definitive take on the character could be an advantage in this regard: there’s no real “canon” to violate. As long as you hit the major notes, everything else can be changed to improve the story.

    Things to keep:
    -Themyscira and its trappings in some form
    -Her few noteworthy villains (Cheetah, Circe, and Ares are the three that most easily spring to mind), though they may need to be retooled slightly
    -The motif of her costume and it’s most iconic components
    -The invisible jet
    -Steve Trevor

    And that’s about it. Everything else should probably be rebuilt from the ground up with compatibility with Man of Steel’s universe in mind. Perhaps the Greek “gods” were actually just interstellar (or interdimensional) beings with powers and technology on par with Krypton who visited Earth and were worshiped by early humans, except for the Amazons, whom they became familiar with and deemed enlightened enough to inherit their knowledge and technology. Seeking to guard their technology and power from abuse, the Amazons cut themselves off from the outside world and now reproduce by cloning. Or maybe they’re immortal now. Either way. This small change to the origin story makes Wonder Woman right at home in the world of Man of Steel, opens up story possibilities (how will Superman react to the “gods”? did they have previous contact with Krypton? what will the world think of this highly-advanced society appearing out of nowhere? did the Amazons take Superman’s arrival as the signal that Man’s World was finally ready to accept their gifts, prompting them to send Wonder Woman as their representative?), and it also explains the invisible jet in an organic way.

    Another small change I’d make is having Wonder Woman’s powers inherent in her armor rather than her person. Out of the armor she’s an expert combatant on par with Black Widow. In the armor, she can go toe-to-toe with Superman. This small change lends some humanity to the character and gives her something in common with both of her counterparts in the Trinity. She knows both human vulnerability, and the responsibility that comes with immense power.

    I think once you solve the compatibility problem, the Wonder Woman film stops being “tricky” and practically starts writing itself. As do its sequels.

  • Brett W

    Oh, one other thing I neglected to mention. Someone needs to figure out what the core of Wonder Woman’s character is. And fast. The other two members of the Trinity can be summed up in a single word. Superman? Hope. Batman? Justice. Wonder Woman? … Nobody seems to know. Some would say her one-word summary is “Truth”, but while truth is important to the character, it’s not really something you can fight for the way Hope and Justice are. Freedom/Liberty perhaps? She does have that hole feminism. Maybe her character is about freeing others from oppression in whatever form it may take. But that slightly edges into “Hope” territory. I’ll mull it over.

  • MeatyStakes

    I, sadly, kinda agree. And this is clear in the different writers the WW comics have had, a lot of them didn’t seems to have a clear idea of whom Diana was. Proud warrior? ambassador of Themyscira? Avatar of Truth? embodiment of kindness and compassion? And this has inadvertently made her far more complex than each writer envisioned on their own.

    Batman and Superman are pretty simplistic archetypes, than can be detailed depending of the adaptation. But Wonder Woman is not so clearly defined. You can say easily where she comes from or even what she does, but her inner workings have always been either very dependent on the writer, or not even touched upon and just showing us how others react to her.

  • Ross Van Loan

    Ellen Ripley, yes. Also, I’d be an idiot to leave out Sarah Conner. These are strong female protagonists in really good movies. I don’t really care about the ultimately forgettable Hunger Evil posers. Maybe I’ll be shown up in twenty years : maybe I won’t.

  • Anonymous

    “Despite all that, Hollywood hasn’t greenlit a single movie with a female comic book character in the lead since 2005.” Gost, people must have had really high expectations towards that “Electra” movie! ;-9 ;-9

    I think the problem is people are thinking to much. When you drive a bike you also don’t think were you will have to drive three streets later, you just get on your bike and drive. But Warners obviously would already like to have a guarantee that there’s no danger anywhere possible at any street and no other vehicles may be driving in your opposite direction. And that’s there thinking mistake. There are no guarantees. And your Batman or Superman road is not so much safer as you are willing to believe, you still can get ditched with every new BM or SM movie anytime. You just believe it’s tried and proven. It’s not.

    The many facets of Wonder Woman: Yeah? And? Who says you have to show all of these “facets” at once? Why not making a generic movie for the beginning as it was once done with Superman and Batman, too? That will make everyone happy. It did as animated movie so why do you want to do all possible interpretations of WW at once? That’s stupid. I still have not seen Batman as the great detective using his genius brain or his scientific knowledge in his lab within 7 movies and do you see me complain? Why not just have Wonder Woman as a sympathetic heroine who experiences her first adventure? You don’t necessarily have to make sociopolitical comments about men and women or show her as the spear carrier of emancipation (at least not in her first movie)? It’s not really as difficult as execs seem to think it is. While not a real fan of the old TV show they got it wright.

    If you have a problem with the believability of the character it’s your problem not the audiences. But it’s exactly that attitude that causes some people higher up the studio ranks to take Superman his red pants away, put him in rubber suit and tone down his colours because, you know… realism!

    As long as DC / Warners are taking their heroes so terribly serious, Marvel movies will always have an edge over DC movies (and I say that as a DC hero fan!). After all what you are doing is “just” a superhero comic book movie not “War and Peace”.

    Stop p..ing around like a young horse and just do it! If you don’t know how to do it get the advice of Paul Dini, Bruce Timm, Gail Simone and that chap that wrote the Wonder Woman animated movie they definitely know how to approach Diana!

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I do agree that the qualities of the villains went down after the Ludus story was concluded, but if they were going to tell the story of the war, the Ludus was going to have to be left behind.

    I’m satisfied with how it ended, though I am still COMPLETELY pissed off that Laeta didn’t kill Spartacus, which is where I thought they were gonna do after he did the same to her, that the Romans had done to him. It would’ve been a nice parallel, and allowed him to die undefeated by the Romans.

    My other wish was that WHO got crucified wouldn’t, and that he’d make it, but oh well. I was hoping someone would pretend to be him, and he’d lead the survivors.

    At least Agron and Nasir made it.

  • Anonymous

    How could I forget about Sarah Connor!!! The point being female action heroes can work and can bring in big box-office.

  • Improbable Joe

    It is also “tricky” in the sense that they want to make 3-5 WW movies, PLUS feature her in the Justice League flick, PLUS make a TV spinoff, PLUS fill a quarter of an aisle in Toys-R-Us with action figures and vehicles. It is further complicated by the obvious fact that WB is embarrassed at the fact that the source material is a comic book, so it has to be super grim & gritty to take some of the “superhero stink” off of it. Also, the movie has to have enough of the right kind of scenes to produce trailers, teaser trailers, exclusive trailers, “leaked” trailers. And they can’t make it for less than $300 million, or else something terrible will happen like the expectations for the audience will match reality.

    Making a good Wonder Woman movie isn’t tricky at all. Stuffing Wonder Woman into the cookie-cutter corporate template is almost impossible.

  • CMFTW

    I can create a wall of texts about why, how or what to do. But it all comes down to one thing….

    SEXISM!!!

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    DC is not helped by making their movies all about worlds so miserable no one wants to go there.

    That’s the biggest diff between Marvel and DC movies right now, is that Marvel’s movies are fun, YOU WANT TO GO THERE! DC movies are not, YOU WANT TO RUN AWAY!

  • Brett W

    Exactly.

  • Brett W

    Well, I don’t think gravitas and seriousness are a bad thing per ce. Not every hero can (or should) be Tony Stark.

  • Ross Van Loan

    Yes they can! I’d love to see some more well executed strong female leads. The fusion character of Scarlet Johansson’s acting & Joss Whedon’s writing was pretty darn good. Apart from that the only other recent examples I can think of are Hanna (Dir. Joe Wright, 2011) & Let Me In (Dir. Matt Reeves, 2010) I don’t think either of these were big box-office. (I’m not that crazy about the clinical original, Let the Right One In.)

  • daria

    Unrealistic oversimplification. C’mon, we all want to see a Wonder Woman, but there comes a point when eagerness becomes unattractive.

    Good movies are hard to make regardless what story. I’m all for expressing desire to see a Wonder Woman movie, but I won’t whine, angrily demand, or feel entitled about it. None of that is productive or encouraging to the actual people tasked with the job. It’s takes A LOT of people to make a successful blockbuster movie, a lot of money, and a lot of factors has to go right. The story is just one facet. Fans complaining are only seeing it through the eyes of fans.

  • Mark Brown

    “Truth” in the face of the lies we tell ourselves. Some bad (“women are weaker than men,” “We are Right and those other people are Wrong,” “it’s not our problem”) some for our own good (“we are safe,” “Love conquers all,” “Hippolyta has your best interests at heart”). Wonder Woman is about confronting the Truth, whether you want to or not.

  • Abel Undercity

    What is so “tricky” about this? Wonder Woman’s story is a straight-up hero’s journey right out of Joseph Campbell. A strong lead, a solid script, a villain audiences can love to hate – no more Green Lantern-esque big yellow clouds please – a good director and a decent budget… from a Hollywood POV, this is neither hard nor unprecedented.

    “Tricky” is an excuse. For what, I can’t even.

  • Abel Undercity

    And bookmarked. Thanks!

  • Abel Undercity

    I’ve said it before: Warner Brothers is embarrassed to be in the superhero business. That’s why every non-animated superhero project is a “realistic” take.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I completely agree, I think there is room for both stories, and I think both stories have value. Dealing the ramifications of having such powerful entities can be just as engaging as dealing with fun.

    I just think that is why Marvel movies are playing better, especially since, in my younger days(GAWD THAT MAKES ME SOUND OLD) I remember the difference between DC & Marvel seemed to be that DC stories were fun, with undefeatable heroes like Supes and WW, and Marvel’s stories were dark and gritty, dealing oppression allegories and teen struggles.

  • domytoruluq

    мy coυѕιɴ ιѕ мαĸιɴɢ $51/нoυr oɴlιɴe. υɴeмployed ғor α coυple oғ yeαrѕ αɴd prevιoυѕ yeαr ѕнe ɢoт α $1З619cнecĸ wιтн oɴlιɴe joв ғor α coυple oғ dαyѕ. ѕee мore αт…­ ­ViewMore——————————————&#46qr&#46net/kkEj

    BUT, that excuse doesn’t really work because pretty much EVERY
    superhero so far has had tons of confusing comic book reboots and
    conflicting origins and so on. It’s just a matter of choosing what works
    and discarding what doesn’t.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I personally love that her IDEAL is Truth, and the world needs a bit more Truth right now, IMO.

    NOW is the perfect time to tell her story. Instead we’re getting Aquaman.

  • Brett W

    The “tricky” part is compatibility. Wonder Woman is pure fantasy, while Batman, Superman, etc. are more “sci-fi” oriented and therefore easier to make “grounded” and “serious”. A Wonder Woman stand-alone film is simple. A Wonder Woman stand-alone film that also has to tie into a larger universe is a bit more complex. What lots of people are forgetting is that, for better or worse, Man of Steel sets the tone for all DCCU movies that will follow it. While it’s easy to fit super-genius vigilantes, martians, intergalactic cops, and even scarlet speedsters into the world Man of Steel has established, magic and gods is a much harder sell. If Man of Steel had n’t been so “realistic” in tone this would not be an issue, but it was and therefore it is.

    But on the other hand, even that compatibility issue is not impossible to solve. It just takes a deft and careful hand. I’ve even outlined my own version of a possible solution in these very comments.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I don’t necessarily feel that sci-fi and fantasy are incompatible. Plenty of people like both, and if told right, it can be done and make both plausible. The only way it will fail, is if you don’t build it.

    Take the 80′s Supergirl starring Helen Slater. They said she was Superman’s cousin, but they didn’t establish the world, or where she was, aside from the swirly macguffin orb that completely drives the plot. They played it straight fantasy(a monster from Conan or Red Sonja even shows up!) but they didn’t build the world, just tried to use Jimmy Olson to establish continuity. You can’t blame it on talent, they got Faye Dunaway and Peter O’Toole, it was a complete failure to build the world and tell a compelling story.

  • Mina

    That’s pretty much exactly how I imagined their romance ending. I just couldn’t buy that Catwoman would settle down forever. Or Batman, for that matter.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    They have plans for Aquaman but not Wonder Woman, what possible reason could they have that doesn’t ultimately boiled down to being afraid of women? Whatever shape that fear may take, saying it’s not clear and compelling, or unrelatable, or not a sure thing, finding money….

    They all boil down to, “It’s a girl, can’t be done”

  • Brett W

    That was the Silver Age, my friend. Things have changed since then. Nowadays DC Comics is known for “teh serious” and Marvel Comics is known for “teh wackiness”. DC does look to be stealing Marvel’s thunder in the craziness department post-reboot though.

    But jokes aside, Marvel’s brand of “serious” is very different from DC’s brand of “serious”. Marvel is generally more down-to-earth and “human”, while DC tends to aim at a certain kind of epic grandeur. You can see this even in their costume designs. Marvel heroes hardly ever wear capes. DC is practically defined by them. DC heroes also tend to look regal and godlike in a way most Marvel heroes don’t. DC tends to make their heroes icons who are broadly respected or feared in-universe, while Marvel heroes tend to be underdogs and outcasts.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Comic book Catwoman, No. Nolan Catwoman, yes he did a very good job of painting them both as fatigued enough to walk away.

    But it could still happen.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    And Marvel’s not jnecessarily ducking the repercussions of their world either, IM3 touched on it a bit, I hope Winter Soldier will more since it’s not gonna take place extra-terrestially, like Thor and GotG. It will be even more interesting to see where Agents of SHIELD will go.

  • Brett W

    As I’ve said in other comments, what’s “tricky” is coming up with a version of Wonder Woman that fits naturally into the world established by Man of Steel but keeps enough of her classic elements to not piss of the fanbase. Aquaman however is right at home in the Man of Steel universe and can be introduced to it without much effort.

    See my other comments for more details, but it basically boils down to this: Man of Steel has established a fairly grounded universe that plays by science fiction rules. Aquaman is sci-fi. Wonder Woman is not.

  • Anonymous

    If they are so worried about it, then why don’t they just not make the first movie the origin story? Why does every superhero movie and rebooted superhero movie have to be the origin?

  • Brett W

    I agree, worldbuilding is crucial. And so is consistency. But I don’t think that Man of Steel’s world is very amenable to gods and magic.Wnder Woman as-is simply won’t fit. There need to careful, smart changes.

  • Carl Jackson

    That. I think people don’t disconnect enough from the fact they want to see more stories to see that both characters (and I include Batman) were spent. Sure, he could just keep churning out those movies, but they probably would have gotten exceedingly depressing because Bruce couldn’t keep it up forever. Is rage had been long spent.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    If he did come back(within this continuity), he wouldn’t be the same person, with the same motivation for it. It wouldn’t be all about his pain anymore.

  • Anonymous

    …did you just argue that with a straight face? Talks to fish, Atlantean myths, hand of enchanted water? The Lady of the Lake? If you can configure Aquaman as sci-fi, there’s no reason that Diana can’t be explained with the same “sufficiently advanced technology” handwaving.

  • Brett W

    Yes, those were all elements of a certain interpretation of Aquaman. But that’s not the Aquaman most people are familiar with. Did you ever watch Justice League/Justice League Unlimited? Or Batman: Brave and the Bold, or Young Justice, or Superfriends? THOSE are the versions of Aquaman people know. Aquaman is science fiction. His ability to talk to fish is telepathic. The enchanted water hand and other King Arthur-esque elements you mentioned are not core aspects of the character and haven’t even made it into any his numerous cartoon adaptations. My point regarding that still stands. Furthermore if you’d read my other comments you’d have realized that I did in fact propose an alternate version of Wonder Woman’s origin that DOES use the “sufficiently advanced technology” explanation.

  • CMFTW

    What I said applies to a lot of female led movies. Not just wonder woman.

  • Anonymous

    I think part of the problem with WW is that there’s no one agreed upon creation story for her. Similarly, her fans are very torn on what is a ‘classic’ plotline. Male and female fans see her very differently and want different things for the character. The entire project needs to walk such a fine line. Futhermore, fantastical elements aren’t often too well-received from the general public, and while fans might love it, they can’t fill all the seats.

  • JD

    Kickstarter it, with the caveat that the production, good or bad, will be released to DVD. If good, then theater release it.
    I think the fans are willing to put money up for the chance of even a ‘B’ movie.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    While I support the sentiment, the point of crowd funding is so creators who don’t have access to that kind of capital can still make their projects.

    DC and WB HAVE the capital they don’t have the will.

  • AverageDrafter

    I 100% agree. They also know superheros make money, so they aren’t letting them go. They just have NO idea what to do with them.

    There are three letters might give you a hint: F-U-N.

    Not B-R-O-O-D-I-N-G

  • Anonymous

    I hear this a lot online — that WW has too many different origin stories. But I’m not sure where that’s coming from. Up until the misbegotten Straczynski reboot in 2010, she had one creation story. One. Made of clay, island of women, comes to Man’s World to do good. No?

    Her reasons for leaving the island get tweaked as times change (since “to fight Nazis!” had a limited shelf life), but the rest was solid. So why all the confusion?

  • Brett W

    It’s not that simple. When you’re building a shared universe, you have to think about compatibility and consistency. Putting Wonder Woman as-is into the same world as Man of Steel- gods, magic, and all- would feel like Gandalf suddenly showing up in the middle of Star Trek Into Darkness. It would be jarring and destroy suspension of disbelief. For the shared universe to work, Wonder Woman needs to be retooled, and the new version built around the rules and conventions of the world established by Man of Steel.

  • Brett W

    I disagree. There’s nothing inherently wrong with taking your IP seriously. In fact, I think that’s what DC needs to do. Marvel’s film brand is heavily associated with “fun”. DC needs to be different so they don’t look like massive copycats. And the best way for them to do that right now is to aim for a more “serious” and “epic” tone, as the Nolan Batman films did and as the new universe set up by Man of Steel looks to be doing. The DC heroes aren’t *just* heroes after all. They’re icons and ideals personified. Why not take them seriously?

  • Anonymous

    It was simple enough that Marvel Entertainment did it with Thor.

  • Brett W

    I’ve addressed this in other comments, but it can’t hurt to repeat it. Thor was altered slightly to fit into the MCU. The “gods” are actually just an advanced race of aliens from another dimension and their “magic” is really just super-science. They even retooled Asgard’s aesthetic to make it more sci-fi. For example, the Rainbow Bridge of Bifrost was changed from an actual rainbow bridge to a Star Trek-style transporter beam. Thor even has a throwaway line something like “Your ancestors called it magic and you call it science. But I come from a place where they are one and the same.” Movie Thor is not identical to Comics Thor. I contend that if Wonder Woman is going to fit into the universe established by Man of Steel, similar changes will need to be made.

  • Anonymous

    It’s funny enough to see irate fangirls huffing and puffing about this whole idiotic Wonder Woman movie subject(how many more of these tedious “there’s nothing difficult about Wonder Woman, dammit!!!” articles must we suffer through for heavens sake?) and how the DC/Warners dudebros always reiterate this same talking point about the “difficulties” of adapting WW to the big screen. But it’s even funnier when a woman(gasp! A Woman said it?!?!?! Traitor to her gender!!! betraying us wiminz!!) tells you what you don’t want to hear. I mean….REALLY funny! lol. Meanwhile, there is no doubt in my mind that a Metal Men movie will be fast tracked in light of the success of Transformers and Pacific Rim. Just think of it, a Metal Men movie BEFORE a Wonder Woman movie!!! Now THAT is FUNNY!!!

  • AverageDrafter

    Because they all aren’t Batman. They shouldn’t all act like Batman.

    The problem isn’t with DC, I have full confidence they have about 100 awesome plans to move forward with their properties. The issue is Warners and the money men in control of the green-light. They are paralyzed by fear of letting the comic book character just BE THEMSELVES.

    I don’t want a Flash that acts like Batman. I don’t want a “reluctant until its impossible not to take action” Flash. I want the Barry Allen who reads Jay Garrick comics and embraces his superpowers immediately.

    In other words, I don’t want them to Man of Steel up all of their characters. However, I have no doubt that is exactly what they are going to do.

  • Brett W

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Brett W

    Being serious =/= “all acting like Batman”. All you have to do is watch Justice League/Justice League Unlimited or Young Justice to see that. The different heroes all had unique personalities and abilities to contribute, and they were all taken seriously. Goofiness was kept to a minimum and the shows worked. The DCCU can do something similar.

  • AverageDrafter

    CAN and WILL are to different matters. The majority of the animated DC universe is absolutely amazing, true to the characters and stories, and most of all CHEAP to produce.

    That’s why WB has been hands off of the animation department for 20 years, they keep producing quality work on the cheap, building a massive library of episodes from their various franchises. Like I said, DC knows what its doing.

    Live action is EXPENSIVE, and that is the difference. No one is pulling triggers on films out of fear, and when they are they do it with such a formulaic heavy hand that you end up with dreck like Green Lantern and Man of Steel.

  • Brett W

    The money involved does make a difference, I’ll admit. And Green Lantern was a disaster, partly because DC tried too hard to follow Marvel’s lead. Now Man of Steel on the other hand I would not call dreck. The critics don’t care for it much (especially those blinded by nostalgia for the Donner films), but it’s quite popular among Superman fans and the general public and has made upwards of 600 million. It’s neither dreck nor a flop, which is good news for the nascent DCCU.

  • frodobatmanvader

    I think there’s a simple solution to the DC Shared Universe: go all Multi-Verse on it. It lets Superman and Wonder Woman exist in their own respective worlds, but still be able to crossover. I think it would be a “Crisis” everyone can get behind.

  • Brett W

    That’s a possible solution. The only problem is that it kinda segregates Diana from the rest of the DCCU, which defeats the point of trying to fit her in to begin with.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Not necessarily, all you need to do is create one world that is Sci Fi-friendly, featuring Superman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter and the like, and then a Fantasy-friendly one, with Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Hawk-people. Throw in a more Noir-style world with The Flash and Batman, and all your bases are covered, everyone gets to keep the cake after eating it.

  • Brett W

    First of all, I don’t see how Aquaman and the Hawks are particularly fantasy-leaning. Atlantis is your standard lost civilization, which is a common sci-fi trope. And Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman are members of an alien race called the Thanagarians, which exist in the Man of Steel universe as confirmed by the tie-in prequel comic. But more importantly, when you say “worlds” do you mean literally separate worlds? Because that could get all kinds of messy, and again kind of defeats the point of a shared universe.

    I maintain that a better solution is to tone down the “gods and magic” aspect of Wonder Woman’s character. And that’s not terribly hard to do. Of course, there are whispers that DC/WB is considering tying Man of Steel’s world and the DCCU to Guillermo del Toro’s “Justice League Dark” project, so maybe magic is still on the table after all and this is a moot discussion.

  • frodobatmanvader

    With Hawkman/Hawkgirl I was thinking of the Golden Age origin, which was much more fantasy-leaning. Yeah, I meant separate worlds. I think that Justice League would work best as a Cloud Atlus-style hyperlink story. Have all of the heroes initially be working on the same problem from their own respective universes, but then have them each meet at least one or more heroes at a time (so for instance, Superman finds himself in Gotham City, and The Flash zips into Wonder Woman’s world) until they all finally meet at the end to vanguish the great, multi-universe spanning evil.

  • Brett W

    That’s definitely a plausible solution, but I honestly think it’s unnecessarily complicated. You don’t need interdimensional hijinks to make the Justice League work. You just need clever writing and the willingness to keep what works and discard what doesn’t, like every other adaptation. My comment here: http://www.themarysue.com/diane-nelson-wonder-woman/#comment-967761621 outlines a much simpler, but still effective potential solution.

    But as I said, if DC/WB wants to tie del Toro’s “Justice League Dark” project, which includes characters like Zatanna, Constantine, and Etrigan, into the DCCU, then this entire thing could be a non-issue and Wonder Woman’s magical elements could still be used, if toned down slightly.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Hey, I think Aquaman is awesome! Can you imagine the potential an entire OCEAN could present?

    That said, yeah, if we get an Aquaman movie before a Wonder Woman movie I might be tempted to put myself into an early grave, just so I can be rolling in it.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Do you mean ripoff Xena in terms of production, or character? ‘Cause character-wise, and I’m tired of saying this, Wonder Woman is NOT Xena. Xena was trying to change her “Man, I just LOVE killing things” past; Diana wants world peace, dammit.

    Production wise, though? Totally, but with a bigger budget, of course. And Lucy Lawless should be Hyppolita.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yesyesyesyesyesyeys YES!!

    (Or, in other words, I agree).

  • frodobatmanvader

    I would agree. There’s a LOT than can be done with truth. I’m sad that no one’s ever put Wonder Woman into a lotus-eater style, “question reality” sort of story.

    Or, close friends have dark secrets/not what they seem. And so on.

  • Brett W

    Something that makes Wonder Woman interesting when compared to Superman and Batman is that she doesn’t (and shouldn’t imho) really have a “secret identity”. Clark plays up the Superman role, but is really a simple and gentle sole at heart. Batman uses the facade of Bruce Wayne to cover up the unrelenting rage that drives him. By contrast, “Diana” and “Wonder Woman” aren’t masks or facades. They aren’t distinct personalities or roles. One is a personal name and the other is a title, but no matter what she’s wearing or what she’s doing, Wonder Woman is always the same person. She has nothing to hide.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Sadly, I think it says something when Disney’s Tangled gives us the best template for Wonder Woman to follow.

    Take Rapunzel and, instead of her being locked in a tower with only one crazy surrogate mother, put her on an island of warrior women. She still wants to see the world just as badly, still believes and hopes the world is as wonderful as she thinks it is, and kicks a WHOLE LOT more tail when she discovers that, yes, it has good people, but a bunch of evil people keep trying to spoil it for everybody.

    Is that really so hard?

  • frodobatmanvader

    Exactly! However, an excellent source of conflict is that, even though SHE never has anything to hide, the people around her, even good people, certainly DO.

    Even though I’m not a fan of Wonder Woman being an illegitimate child of Zeus (just like EVERY OTHER Greek demigod), I am a fan of the twist that even the Amazons have some bad skeletons in their closets. I just wish they could have done it without Diana seemingly hopelessly naive, and the Amazons seeming unapologetic about it all…

    The thing is, Wonder Woman is an excellent superhero for exploring the fact that even benign secrets can have tragic consequences.

  • Brett W

    But you see, it’s not the *story* of Wonder Woman that’s difficult. Once you get past the compatibility issue the story is actually pretty simple, even formulaic. What’s difficult is figuring out the core of the character herself, because no one seems to know what it is. Batman and Superman have core ideals that their characters are built on that can be examined and philosophized about, as shown in films like the Dark Knight and Man of Steel. Who they are and what they stand for is well known. If Wonder Woman’s character is going to stand up to the same scrutiny, seriousness, and even philosophizing, figuring out the core of the character, what her “point” is, what the foundation of her mythos is made of, is crucially important. The “just do it” approach isn’t good enough. People know who Wonder Woman is. What she stands for? That’s a bit fuzzy.

  • Brett W

    Combine that with her role as an ambassador, and there’s tons of opportunity for political commentary.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Wonder Woman should be based on the core ideal, that nobody should have anything to hide.

    The villains she faces are evil because they spread deceit and conflict, making people feel like they have to hide themselves, either figuratively or literally.

    Diana disagrees with friends when it comes even to “little, white lies.” Sometimes in those arguments she’s right, sometimes she has something to learn about her concept of “truth.”

    Nations that have dirty secrets send her reeling, ESPECIALLY if that nation is her own.

    Ultimately, she believes in Truth. In her eyes, with truth comes cooperation, with truth comes comes contentment, with truth comes peace.

    The fact that it’s never that cut and dry is what gives her story continuous drama.

  • Brett W

    That sounds like a great foundation to start with. Now that we’ve solved all the character’s problems, we only have to figure out how to make it all “marketable”.

  • frodobatmanvader

    And now I think we’ve gotten to the REAL problem Warner Bros. has with the character: they have no frakkin’ clue how to market her, and that’s because if they want to market her correctly, they need to *gasp* BREAK NEW GROUND.

    I think that Wonder Woman should be a movie BY women, FOR women, and as such should be marketed accordingly. Sure, put an ad in video game magazines, but also put just as much or more in magazines like Cosmopoliton. Fine, do a commercial during Arrow, but do just as many on Lifetime or Oh!

    What these movie execs don’t get is that movies like Elektra or Catwoman were stuff that most girlfriends would be embarrassed to be seen at. Sidestep the issue. Get women so excited for this thing, THEY will drag their BOYFRIENDS to see it…

    And if you back it up with a damn good story, meaningful characters’ relationships and exciting action, I don’t imagine many complaints.

  • Anonymous

    Hmmmm. The themes to their “issues” seem to be leading to only one possible solution that Dubya-Bee sees as a reality.

    Ladies and gentlemen, arriving in theaters for Summer 2014:
    WONDER MAN!

  • Mark Brown

    Does nobody else remember New Genesis/Apokolips?

    Gods-as-high-tech-aliens. Right there. BOOM(tube).

  • Brett W

    Honestly, I don’t think that’s the solution. I agree that women should be involved in the creative process, but I don’t think Wonder Woman should be “for” women. That’s just pigeonholing, which is actually part of the problem.

    Now, putting myself in the place of a stodgy corporate bigwig, I can sort of see their dilemma. They feel like it’s a lose-lose situation. Make the film too “rawr! girl power!” and the bros and geek-dudes who are usually the audience for superhero flicks might not show up. Pander too much to the guys and the girls won’t show up, plus fans of the character will be enraged, plus you’ll have feminists spitting fire at you. And in either case the girls might not show up regardless because superhero movies are so universally seen as a “dude thing”. And that’s not even touching the action figure debacle. Do we sell them to girls? But girls only like dolls! Do we sell them to boys? But boys only like male action figures! What to do? Oh the humanity!

    *shakes head* The mind of a corporate executive is one heck of a rabbit-hole. Never going back there again.

  • Brett W

    Yes.

  • Brett W

    They can’t do that. “Wonder Man” is actually a Marvel character. lol

  • frodobatmanvader

    Hmm, how did The Hunger Games handle it’s marketing? Oh, right. It piggybacked off of the goodwill for the book.

    Well, why can’t Wonder Woman piggyback off of the goodwill of “hey, when will we get a Wonder Woman movie?” …probably it will lead to “ruined forever!” talks when they don’t get it “right” …which they won’t.

    Well, however they market her, I still think they need to try something new and innovative… whatever that means.

  • Anonymous

    I should have been more vague. I guess it’s more than her creation itself (divine or ‘clay’) but her… characterization in general. Her abilities, her relationships, her identity, etc…

    Those factors alone probably don’t separate her from any other comic character with an evolving past, but I think for many the 70s tv series is still iconic, and the idea to top that seems nearly impossible (as with Superman.)
    IDK, those are just my thoughts.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    “the expectations for the audience will match reality.”

    There is absolutely no danger of that happening.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    He didn’t blow it up, he just didn’t make any more of them. WB could’ve continued with Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Batman if they wanted, but the general consensus is that Nolan’s Batverse was too grounded in the real world to set up a franchise with aliens and magic and shit.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    “the overwhelming consensus that Selina Kyle, Lois Lane, and Faora-Ul were the best things about the movie”

    Whoa whoa whoa. The overwhelming consensus? Faora stank. Her lines were dumb, she’s one of a dozen henchmen, and her accent was incongruous. Nothing against the actress, and the character’s certainly low on the list of problems with Man of Steel, but saying she was one of the best things about it is like saying Mathew Modine was one of the best things about The Dark Knight Rises.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    Well, the Avengers was an incredibly hard movie to make, and X-Men botched the conclusion of the trilogy so badly they literally have to go back in time to fix it.

    But yeah, Thor‘s premise seems just as hard to sell as WW’s without even the benefit of her name recognition.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    Well, the Avengers was an incredibly hard movie to make, and X-Men botched the conclusion of the trilogy so badly they literally have to go back in time to fix it.

    But yeah, Thor‘s premise seems just as hard to sell as WW’s without even the benefit of her name recognition.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    Prequel works better than sequel. And no need for Bale, because this would have been during his recluse phase.

  • http://wrongsirwrong.blogspot.com/ Magic Xylophone

    Prequel works better than sequel. And no need for Bale, because this would have been during his recluse phase.

  • Abel Undercity

    So instead they’re going with Sandman?

  • Brett W

    Yeah… I don’t get that either. But my guess is that Sandman won’t be part of the shared universe.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    They’re it? Everyone else was scooped up? Sad face.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    In terms of production and storyline. The Man’s World angle…I just don’t see it working.

  • MamaKin

    They need to take another look at the animated feature. I thought it was very well done – origins, a first look at Man’s World, the little things like kicking off her heels when a fight is brewing. And they need a COMPLETE unknown in the role – someone who actually looks the part and has some serious acting chops.

    Or just talk Bruce Timm into running the thing. (Says the animation fangirl.)

  • Brett W

    On the positive side, we’re finally getting Superman/Batman. Could possibly even lead to a Trinity movie.

  • frodobatmanvader

    I don’t see how the Man’s World angle and the lone traveler aspect are mutually exclusive. What better way to show her exploring Man’s World than as a lone traveler, a la 1970′s Incredible Hulk.

    In any case, not seeing the Man’s World angle working…? That’s, uh, her whole origin story. Not doing that with her is literally like doing Superman without Krypton blowing up, or Batman without his parents being killed. If you don’t find a way to make the Man’s World angle work… then don’t do Wonder Woman.

    I’m tired of people trying to make her into Xena.

  • Brett W

    I think what he means is that some people might find it off-putting if they make Wonder Woman too preachy about the problems of “Man’s World”. Might insult the male half of the audience. But I think the WW animated film skirted that problem brilliantly by having Steve Trevor act as a stand-in for the decent (though not perfect) part of male-dom.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    New 52′s done it so far. The Man’s World angle is too doe-eyed, the way it’s usually handled. As for Superman, his BACKGROUND is Krypton blowing up…but his origin is superhuman raised by hicks to be a do-gooder. You could totally do Wonder Woman without Man’s World. Again, New 52 even took out the Clay Person thing and made her into a demigod. Seems to be working.

    And people LIKE Xena.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Oh, I agree about the preachiness, and also feel the animated movie did a good job with handling it. I’m also annoyed when they turn Diana into a constant voice-box for “what’s wrong with man’s world,” especially since one of her major motivations was to see the world beyond her island.

    I think if you give Wonder Woman a sense of discovery and make her motivation largely about protecting what is beautiful and honest (both in “Man’s World” AND at home on Themyscira), then I think the series can avoid the preachiness. Because that aspect definitely should be done in a way that the whole story can appeal to both genders.

    But I don’t it should just be dropped entirely.

  • frodobatmanvader

    I LOVE Xena. I also love Wolverine and Batman. Yet, I wouldn’t love it if someone took Batman and basically made him into Wolverine, or vice versa.

    You know who’s a great example of Wondie-as-Xena? Glory. That comic is awesome, and because it’s an original character, it doesn’t feel like someone taking a character I admire and stripping away the things that make her unique so that she can be turned into another bloodthirsty Xena-clone.

    The things that Azarello is doing to Wonder Woman are akin to Christopher Nolan honestly thinking that Rachel Dawes dying would cause Bruce Wayne to give up being Batman, instead of making him TRY HARDER as Batman.

    Both seem to get SO MUCH right when it comes to the surface qualities, or even just-under-the-surface qualities, of each character, but when it comes to the heart of them? They fundamentally misunderstand EVERYTHING about what makes them tick!

    And don’t even get me started on that “Let’s make Wonder Woman a bastard child of Zeus, just like EVERY OTHER two-bit Greek Hero” angle…

    … … …Sorry. My rant is over. I have a boatloads more of opinions on how Wonder Woman is being handled, but I also realize that nerd-raging isn’t going to make anyone want to hear them. (Sigh) My apologies.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    I absolutely respect your right to rage. There are characters I feel that strongly about, though Wonder Woman isn’t one of them. And if you dislike the current interpretation of the character, than we’re at fundamentally different poles. I really, really, REALLY can’t imagine that they’d do a classic Wonder Woman origin story without completely screwing it up, though. In a feature film, I mean. To be fair, DC can’t seem to do anything right regarding its film adaptations and I mostly hate the New 52 approach to everyone else…John Constantine, by the way, being the character that gets my ire.

  • Brett W

    I wouldn’t say they can’t “do anything right”. Nolan’s Batman trilogy was awesome. And Man of Steel is pretty solid.

  • Adam R. Charpentier
  • Brett W

    What’s that they say? Oh right. “Haters gonna hate.” Trying to please the purists is a sucker’s game anyway. Bring on the re-imaginings I say.

  • Brett W

    Actually, I felt the opposite way about the Steve Trevors. The animated film Steve Trevor was interesting, useful, and a good foil for Diana’s soapboxing, which sometimes veered into annoying territory. Brave and the Bold Stever Trevor was by comparison a boring, one-note fanboy. Which was part of the joke, seeing as they played him as a genderswapped damsel in distress. Even Batman remarks “What does she see in that man?”

    The last thing the Wonder Woman film needs is soapboxing honestly. Because then it stops being a superhero movie and starts being a “commentary” movie. It stops being about the characters and plot and starts being about “the issue”. That will only drag the film down, and it’s one of the reasons a Wonder Woman film has not been made.

    Superman and Batman, even Flash and Green Lantern all have themes in their stories that can be explored, but none of them are burdened with “addressing the issue” in the same way Wonder Woman is. Nobody tries to turn Batman into a sermon about gun control, or turn GL into a sermon about police brutality. And the one time they tried to turn Superman into a sermon about nuclear proliferation it sucked. But Wonder Woman has to carry the weight of feminism on her shoulders. That’s more than a little unfair.

    The Dark Knight managed to slip in some social commentary on the sly, because the social commentary wasn’t the focus. The story was. But you can’t do that for Wonder Woman. If the message is too subtle, feminists will denounce the movie with words like “sell-out”, “spineless”, “not true to the character”, etc. And if the message is too blatant, nobody will watch the film because by and large people don’t enjoy being preached at. The best chance for Wonder Woman film is to ditch the soapboxing altogether and focus on the story and action instead.

  • Mandy

    I don’t think having fun equals not taking your characters seriously. As for DC doing all their charcters as “serious” and “epic” as Nolan did…I think you confuse serious again with ‘realistic.’ Nolan’s Batman was made more realistic than cartoonish or comic book-y. See reasons why they could not use villians such as Poison Ivy. How do you make that kind of character work IRL? You can’t. She’s a part plant lady who somehow has control over plants and poison kisses you to death. Just like they didn’t use the Venom stuff for Bane because apparently a serum type thing that ups your muscle/stregth is too absurd. Instead Bane got a breathing apperatus.
    Not to say Marvel doesn’t straddle that line too but they are more lenient IMO. WW2 soldier made stronger by some vita rays? Then survives over 50 years in ice? Rainbow bridges that allow you to travel across space? You have to have some suspensnse of disbelief here. Marvel doesn’t seem to shy away from the more comic book elements like DC does.

    But really the tone and overall look of a Batman movie should NOT (IMO) be the same tone and look of a Superman movie. And then a Wonder Woman movie should not have the same look and feel as either of those. They can be connected, part of the same overall universe, but not have the same grim/dark/gritty/angsty feel that DC seems to keep trying to replicate from their Batman movies. Which is a mistake in my opinion. What works for one hero does not work for every hero.

  • Mandy

    Has no one started a petition for this? Didn’t Hathaway once say she’d be game for her own movie? Man I really want to see a good Catwoman movie.

  • Mandy

    I have to admit I recently saw Xena was avalible on Netflix and started watching it. Now I never watched it much when I was a kid, just caught the occasional episode. But hot damn does Lucy Lawless’s badass-ery hold up well! Girl is super fierce! And I definitely get Wonder Woman vibes watching the show. I would be totally fine with a Wonder Woman movie that was heavly influenced by the tone of Xena. (even better if Lucy Lawless could get a role or at least a cameo in a Wonder Woman film. She still is just as awesome if her role in the Spartacus tv show is anything to go by.)

  • Anonymous

    Anger <3 Great post.

  • Anonymous

    Plus, the more of these movies and appearances she makes…well…she might start getting old, y’all. Ladies have a short shelf-life.

  • Ricardo Aguilera

    Where are you getting this idea that Louis lane was the best thing about man of steel?

    I also love how you cherry picked female lead movies by ignoring the fact that female action movies traditionally fail miserably at the box office. Hunger games was a recent rare attraction and Prometheus was not soley a female lead story…in fact many people consider David the best thing about that movie.

  • Ricardo Aguilera

    “slightest whiff of any version of the feminist action hero except”

    Well darling…believe it or not lots of men do not want to tune into 2 hours of misandry in light of a engaging fun movie. We hear enough feminist sentiments on a daily basis about how men are natural rapist and how men are violent and evil as early the womb…is it any wonder why people might be apprehensive towards a Wonder Woman movie.

    I’m sure if you had it your way you would demand a castration scene on top of it.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with your basic sentiment, but DC have nothing to do with the movies. Those decisions are made by high-paid executive marketers. Marvel actually includes its creatives when making decisions. This is a big reason they’ve left Warner in the dust.

    Keep in mind that Warner threw out Whedon’s script for a Wonder Woman movie and made Green Lantern instead. These people have no idea what they’re doing, and all of their decisions are fear-based and informed by a lifetime of not ever reading a comic book, ever.

  • Odotry

    The Hunger games books are pretty successful giving the movies something to Piggyback off of, WW on the otherhand, well her comics have never been that successful. They hardly chart the top of sales and i don’t think any of her stories received the same acclaim as something like Knightfall or Age of Apocalypse or something.