So Maybe Including A Shock-Collar-Wearing Female Slave In The Old Republic Wasn’t The Best Idea?

Very good points about what the player brings to the game with them (historical baggage, cultural norms).

That aside, though, it makes a lot of sense that the slave is a twi’lek female: Through the movies (and additional games like KOTOR), the twi’lek’s are the most-abused/sexualized species, mostly showing up as slaves, dancer-slaves, or singers.

It’s a wonder that the Twi’Leks get as much play as they do. Between the razor sharp teeth and the tumorous head growths, they’re not the most attractive species the series has offered. 

I made a Sith Warrior guy named Alistair and took the collar off the first chance he got. :) Got LOTS of bonus points with Vette for that!

Also, in the game you do get to torture a man with force lightning, so it’s fairly balanced in that aspect. My biggest complaint is the unfortunate lack of nice, muscular, HUMAN, guy companions with romance options. All of the starting companions are female or non-human except wimpy Corso Riggs, and who wants to play a smuggler anyway? Sigh. My main is a female bounty hunter, and she kicks butt, but so far my companions are a puny little girl heal bot, a droid, and I hear the next three are a cute little Jawa and two really ugly aliens.

Sexist? Maybe not. But shortsighted, definitely.

Oh, I think it’s sexist alright.  I mean, you can’ t really ignore that when one takes into account that this game is largely designed by privileged white doods, a segment of the population not exactly encouraged, and certainly not likely ever forced by personal circumstances, to examine their own prejudices and position of power in society.  It’s sexist.  It is.  End of story.  Whether any guy on the the team crafting this companion and her story line actually stopped and said to himself, “This is definitely skirting my own sick fantasies about an exotic woman I can do with as I please”, I strongly doubt.  The ingrained sexism and dehumanisation of women, especially women of a non-default race/species (in this case) isn’t exactly the sort of thing people stop and analyze within themselves.  I got a huge squicky feeling seeing what they did to Vette as a companion, and isn’t she a teen, as well?  And Mako also? 

I really don’t know what the fuck is up with the people who designed the game, but I’m ready to throw down with them, the longer I’ve played the game, because it’s total shit in regards to creating escapist fantasy for minorities, in a number of ways I can list off the top of my head — no SGR, lack of romance options for women, especially *acceptably* behaved romance options (Tharan Cedrax or Corso Riggs *shudder*), dancing female Twi-Lek’s *everywhere*, problematic companions.  I find myself constantly reminded that I’m less than in this game, and they really could have avoided much of that, while retaining realism, if they’d bothered to.  David Gaider wept.

EDIT: Also meant to say that you’re right on about problems with the community. They seem to care a wee bit about how players act in the game, and then they create a game that reflects plenty of the nastiness in gamer culture, thereby encouraging it in their players. Really smart move, creating their own problems themselves like that. Brilliant.

It’s like asking why asari in the Mass Effect universe are so appealing to almost all the species. They just have that “something” that sets them apart. In the case of Twi’lek females, they’re taught from a very early age that their bodies are the best way to communicate desire. Dancing for one’s mate is common in Twi’lek culture (christ, why do I know this? XD) and many of the women recognize that their seduction methods could make them a lot of money. It’s the same for human female dancers. Are they any less for using what nature gave them to make a living? No.

In one of the Tales from Jabba’s Court stories, it tells how Oola chose to go and work for Jabba as a dancer. I’m not saying Vette here chose a similar option to become a slave; I don’t know her story as I haven’t played the game. I’m just saying it’s a bit much to keep jumping to “This is misogyny! Raaaar, sexism!”. Twi’leks are just…well. They’re there to be objectified, as awful as that sounds. Are there non-dancer Twi’lek females out there? Course! It’s very subjective, I think.

Yes, sexism exists. It exists on both ends. I’m sure if that had been a male Twi’lek or some other more appealing alien race as a slave for the Sith, female players would’ve been enjoying it as well and making similar comments. Being female does not mean we’re automatically compassionate. There are plenty of women out there who would looooove to do something similar to a man! I think a lot of people forget that, though.

And this comment is already too long.

Wait, your brother was Adam Ant?

Awesome.

Seriously your going there…really?!  Your ‘ok’ with poisoning people on mass, chopping off heads and tossing them at the feet of their wives?  But oh no, a female as a slave gives you pause, and starts the whole ‘OH NOES’ women gamers are treated so unfairly argument.

Then you wonder why male gamers become annoyed by females playing games.  Here is a news flash it’s game!  You elected to play on the side of the story where brutality of all shapes and size take place to both genders.  If you were uncomfortable with that then don’t play Empire, or don’t play at all.  

 It’s a story devise, it’s to add drama.  And if your on server where a bunch arsehats are talking in general, maybe change servers.  

Just linking and discussing this article caught me some flak on Twitter. That said, I’m glad you decided to write this. You’ve helped give voice to some of my feelings on gaming as a whole and some important thoughts on this subject. Thank you for sharing!

You sound like a gamer-dood.  That makes me sad.  Fight the cultural socialization!

You’re kinda missing a key component here, which is the sexual overtones to some of the violence towards women in the game.  I’m ok with murdering equally the mothers and fathers of promising young kids who don’t want to go to Korriban. 

Being female does not mean we’re automatically compassionate. 
Well, I for one am relieved your challenging that particular stereotype in your post.

The ‘lack of compassion’ as you put it, of some women is not a pervasive, institutionalized problem in society so subtle it’s easy to ignore or minimalize (as you do), yet so strong the disassembling of such a problem has hardly begun. 

Twi’leks are just…well. They’re there to be objectified, as awful as that sounds.  That *does* sound awful — just so I’m clear you understand that saying ‘as awful as that sounds’ doesn’t in the least abscond you from the responsibility of having typed out such a horrible thing.

You’ve really drunk the kool-aid, and it depresses me that  Mary Sue isn’t a place where folks who post such nonsense aren’t regularly challenged.  You’re excusing the bad behavior of a privileged group of people against a minority — a gigantic problem that goes well beyond individual cases, by firstly shrugging it off as ok, and then defending it with ‘but some women do it too!”  Really offensive post.

Psst. You get a pretty decent Mandalorian guy later. But yes, the female romanceable options are a bit sad. My poor Trooper is stuck with a grumpy Cathar, whom I refer to as “Mittens” — and all of my guildmates know exactly who I am talking about. Ah well.

So what you’re saying is, you find her lack of compassion disturbing?

Gah! What the hell?

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING

So what you’re saying is, you find her lack of compassion disturbing?

No doubt some people will handle interactions with Vette with real ill thoughts in their mind. That doesn’t mean the story should be altered to accommodate them. In a world where we are so connected to one another we can not expect Bioware to factor in every psychological profile while telling stories.

What would it help anyways? If individuals prone to insult and act out aren’t doing it in one way then they will do it another way. It is a shame but most people who suffer early on never overcome the early years of their lives when they are shaped by their caregivers. 

Hah! I was looking at the aesthetics of the character design and you went DEEP into the lore. I love the varied approaches to fan subject matter. Yes, I too recall the different Tales collections, including the Jabba’s Palace book…but only just. It’s been too long. Thanks for the recap, though!

Since I haven’t played the game and you brought up the possibility of women enslaving men…are players given that option at all? I haven’t played the game yet and am unaware.

Very good points and a thoroughly interesting article. My own personal opinion is that shes a slave because shes a Twi’lek, they tend be used for sex and slavery an awful lot if the movies and expanded universe content tells us anything. Either way, I think it is good for story and wasn’t a particularly distateful choice on the part of Bioware, no more distasteful than a war game being set in an environment where you kill people mindlessly. But thats an entirely different tangent, of course.

Still, good article, thanks for the good read! :D

In context I honestly have no problem with this, yes it’s an abused and oppressed female figure that you could choose to ‘get off on torturing’ but having played many hours now of TOR I’ve had just as much sinister joy shooting a kid’s parent in front of him and wow I know that’s not a reflection of how I’d act in real life yet it’s appropriate in context and entertaining. Am I less likely to choose to shock her as women player? Maybe, but as in playing an inquisitor I shocked anyone and anything I could I doubt it. Any reluctance to shock her on my part would be more from the fact that she’s a companion and helpful and just… maybe shocking allies even slave allies seems like a poor choice in the long run if you don’t want people to stab you in your sleep later. Besides the fact she’s hardly the only female I’ve heard cringe worthy statements about in general chat in game. (apologies for any rambling cold medicine make it difficult to edit)

I’ve played a handful of characters on both sides of the Force.  While I think my Sith Inquisitor has the best _voice_ in the game, I’m increasingly disinclined to play him because I just…don’t like being evil.  I have a Bounty Hunter who I play as a very virtuous person in a very evil Empire.  SWTOR has taught me that I don’t like making that decision to put neurotoxin in the water, just because it will get me better gear.

Even on the Alliance side, there are semi-naked dancing ladies wherever I go.  Why are there no semi-naked dancing men?

This is a very earnest article and I think you’ve made a great argument, but also a very honest one.  I can relate to trying to sift through the layers of meaning, for sure.

Is saying the game was designed by privileged white dudes fact or speculation?  I haven’t looked at the dev team.

That said, I think the article made a stronger argument for the ambiguity of the situation than you do – I don’t think it had anything to do with fantasy.  If anything it probably had a lot more to do with the fact that we’re culturally more likely to cast women as victims.

And David Gaider isn’t the holy patron saint of gender equity.  Ugh.

Did you even fucking read the article?

Really, your entire argument is severely weakened by the multiple glaring grammatical errors, but I am not here to complain about the decline of quality English.  I am here to say this – look around you.  Look around at the world we live in today, and then look back at this comment.  This world is not one for these polarizing statements.  This is a world where one of my friend’s son who is kindergarten age recently got an American Girl doll.

Next, look at yourself in the context of your comment, specifically the “bunch arsehats” you mention.  You have told people to “[not] play at all” if they think an element of a game is poorly designed.  To the sort of person who actually uses their brain, that is the equivalent of ‘boobs or GTFO.’  This is horribly offensive, and this is coming from a guy who has never seen that happen, let alone happen to me.  Simply saying this puts you in the same boat as those “bunch arsehats.”

The final point I am going to mention is how you seem to have completely missed the point of the article.  You cite as the reason for this article being written is “a female as a slave” when that is only the beginning of the reasoning.  The full reason for this article being written is the fact that the slave woman has a shock collar you can torture her with.  At least, that is the main point I got from my reading of the article, if that is wrong, please let me know.

Congratulations, you should feel accomplished.  You and your ilk are the reason that I so rarely read the comments on Internet articles like this one.  However, when I do read the comments, I have never been so offended by one that I felt required to reply to the comment like this.  Congratulations.  Having said what I am here to say, I will now go back to ignoring your kind, hopefully with more success than I have had now.

Evil is evil. You’re playing the bad guy/gal. While I’m not familiar with the game in question, the other posters, who I assume know their nerdage, state you have the option to kill kids in front of their parents–why is torture worse than murder?

I can understand why you’re unnerved by the sexualized torture of women by men–you fear it might happen to you one day, and it connects with other social instances of the devaluation of women. I will point out, from my side, that lots of men die in wars, and not all wars are fought with volunteer armies. The fear of conscription should some idiot politician decide our country (with its two oceans and weak neighbors) is threatened prevented me from enjoying war movies until I was about 26 or so.

Also, more women having roles in video games means violence against women, because video games are violent. We still haven’t seen a lot of female archvillains, which would arguably bring equality full circle.

Still, to what degree is violence considered more acceptable when it’s fantastic? If this game gave you the chance to play as a Nazi and get items for torturing concentration camp prisoners, I think people would be up in arms. (Many villains are based on the Nazis–ever see an Imperial flag? Who had the first ‘Stormtroopers’?)

They should. Given the popularity of BDSM among the nerd population, they’d sell a lot of copies.

Oh, because men’s bodies are gross and ugly and us ladies don’t actually look at them with any desire. You didn’t get the Male Gaze memo?

So, I’ll sort of put aside whether women dislike seeing sexual violence against women because we are personally afraid of it in our lives (a clue on my feelings: lol)

…and just stick to the fact that culturally we have always held torture as more evil than murder, even in war. Killing soldiers on the field is not a war crime, torturing them and killing them while they are in your custody is. I’m surprised you don’t just feel it in your gut….hurting someone or something that has surrendered agency to you just feels much more wrong than simple murder. It just does. 

I’ve tried some thought experiments on this one, changing the gender doesn’t actually do much for me because human trafficking victimizes boys, as well. But I do think a big part of what you’ve identified as a problem is the fact that the game design incentivizes the torture of a slave. And no, it’s not as if we are supposed to think that is a morally good activity, being available to the evil dudes, but the fictional acts are taken by actual people. And even a small minority of gamer dudes being able to use the in-game reward as a cover for their real-life enjoyment of fictionally torturing a woman turns my stomach. Maybe that’s what they should have seen happening.

I’m glad to read a balanced piece about this! I’ve heard about it and people either go fanatically one way or the other.

Ultimately, I’m in the camp that thinks it an appropriate device of the narrative for a Star Wars game; especially for Sith characters. However, I also understand the squick. The thing is, it squicks me more in real life. If this were torture for torture’s sake, it would bother me. But that’s not what this is.

From what I’ve heard from other players, you can use the shock collar to rape her. (You coerce her into having sex.) Not seeing anything about a male slave here so there is no parallel between force lightening and raping a woman. once again, Bioware shows their true colors.

There should be a male equivalent.

This was an extremely well-written post and definitely made me take a second look at things I usually dismiss from an intellectual “higher-ground.”

There’s not even a but there… you make great, valid points.

What reasonably follows those points, though? Since we acknowledge that, in the greater context of the setting and *point* of the game, this aspect makes sense, the main issue here is in recognizing that it also emulates certain realities of our culture, and that rewarding players for that emulation can foster the sort of attitudes we as a people are trying to be rid of.

So, it’s basically the “socially responsible” argument (and again, I’ve never seen it better made here). The issue I have with that argument is that it’s essentially saying that certain things should not be expressed in art because of the reactions it may cause in the audience…

And that’s a sentiment I’m vehemently opposed to. 

The best example I can think of to clarify is this… I hate the N word. It’s the only word on this planet created purely out of hateful intent. I don’t think it should be spoken and I don’t think it should even exist. BUT, I’ll never tell a writer they shouldn’t put it in their story. I may wince and feel uncomfortable hearing it, but that’s how I SHOULD react… I’m reacting exactly as the writer intended. The art is successful, even if it’s unpleasant.

I can’t help but apply the same reaction to the Star Wars thing.

OK, why then? I’m wrong. Enlighten me. Really. I’ll admit I’m pretty far out on the spectrum and probably miss a lot of stuff. My principal fear when being anally raped would be of contracting HIV, but most people don’t feel that way, and I never quite understood why.

War’s actually a special case. Outside of war, murder is treated as worse than torture–most states won’t give you the death penalty if you don’t kill someone.

And the gut: people have different guts. It’s kind of surprising to both sides when you realize it.

Thank you so much for this very well thought out article! I follow the exact same train of thought when I consider gender issues in fantasy stories. In fact, I recently went retro and sorted out all my thoughts on Leia’s gold bikini, and I hit on almost all the same points. Star Wars is actually pretty easy for a feminist fangirl to love, because it’s not an intrinsically patriarchal world (save for some societies, and given that this is a whole galaxy, that’s just math). Basically, both cases are not necessarily misogynistic because both Jabba and the SIth are equal opportunity evil. But it’s considering the design process behind both situations that’s uncomfortable, because narratives don’t exist in a vacuum. Someone comes up with an idea, and that someone is from a world were sexism is not just relegated to the bad guys, but is deeply entrenched in our society. Of course, this being a shock collar in a video game is pretty different, and worse, than one costume in a movie scene.

Sam Rowe, thank you for such a well written response. The Mary Sue seems to be attracting more trolls / assholes like SmugglerSteel lately and I’m always glad to see people sticking up for what this site is about.

Hear hear, QFT.

Its not something you must do, its not something that the developers of the game are even forcing you to do if you choose to play that side of the fence. Its an option you may pursue if you want to. If you choose not to, then it doesn’t occour.

An you right, this is why male gamers have started to hate female gamers, which i admit is unfair, especially considering its not all female gamers: Unfortunately there is this subset of female gamers i like to call “the nag squad” who take great enjoyment in finding things to complain about in games, specifically how females are treated. You can be in a game about killing thousands of dudes, & the sodomising the people you took prisioner with the corpse of the slain, while making the slain persons family & its A okay; but if the same character is to slap a woman on the arse, “oh no you didint” *Z snap*

yes he did & so did i. The fact is that if you are playing that side of the game you are playing the bad guy. You do bad things as a matter of course. So how is doing them to a female character any different from doing them to a male character?

To try and make an argument in which its worse when it happens to a woman is just a case of special pleading.

Sure, because as everyone knows, if you state an opinion you don’t agree with, its trolling. Fact is that SmugglerSteel is right. Its an option you have to play like that in the game, its not something the developers are forcing you to do. The option is there if you want to play the out and out arsehole, villain, bad guy.

I mean its a game where you kill people to make a point, where you torture & execute people as a matter of course & people have a problem with a character being used as a slave because that character is incidently female.

“But I do think a big part of what you’ve identified as a problem is the fact that the game design incentivizes the torture of a slave”

No i don’t think it does. I don’t think that it actually has any bearing on the story whatsoever. I’ve not played it yet, but i don’t think you even get points for it… But lets say you do then by extension doesn’t it also insentivise murder, execution, theft, breaking and entering & a shit load of other negative characteristics?

See what you’ve just done is special pleading. You’ve said “oh well it insentivies crime A” without realising it also in that case would insentivise crime B through F in exactly an equal fashion.

In our current moment in history and in Western culture there isn’t an occasion outside of war where you actually have full custody over another human. We don’t have slaves now. POW’s and prisoners are the closest you can get. Even children have agency that slaves don’t and protections under the law separate from the protections afforded to their guardians. 

If you read again you’ll see there are in-game rewards for the mistreatment of Vette, but the rest of your point stands. Yes, I am pleading a special case when several misdeeds are rewarded, and I think this is completely appropriate.

The thing is, I live in the real world where violence against women and rape are routinely ignored and women who are victims are silenced and asked to never make trouble. I don’t, however, live in a world where murdering dozens of innocent people is ignored. Let’s leave B&E and larceny out of it, because I hope we can agree they don’t actually come close to murder and rape in moral equations. 

So perhaps it is understandable that I am less troubled by in-game rewards for the fictional razing of an entire town than I am by the fictional raping and torturing of a female slave, all with impunity. One of these is so far from reality I can be comfortable with it as fantasy, the other is so far from fantasy I am just disturbed.

“The thing is, I live in the real world where violence against women and rape are routinely ignored and women who are victims are silenced and asked to never make trouble.”

Bull dust. If you live anywhere in the western world then you live in a world where women are the most protected, pampered & enabled societal group in the history of the world. Even the word “rape” is enough to encite white knights to come out of the cupboard to protect a hypothetical woman who doesn’t exist.

I’m sorry but if you want to talk about an ignored group who can be legally beaten & raped without consequence, thats not women, its men. Heck the US has even pased laws to make it easier to do just that (VAWA is a great example). Look at how society denies that men can even be the victim of intimate partner violence, even when groups like the CDC & every other governmental health organisation has come to the demonstrable conclusion that women are just as likely to the instigators of intimate partner violence as men. In fact the idea of a man being abused by a woman is a running sight gag in American media, yet a woman being abused gives you article like this one.

“So perhaps it is understandable that I am less troubled by in-game rewards for the fictional razing of an entire town than I am by the fictional raping and torturing of a female slave, all with impunity. One of these is so far from reality I can be comfortable with it as fantasy, the other is so far from fantasy I am just disturbed.”

Nope, thats just special pleading. You are introducing a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves.

Honestly, the fact that this character and the possible events and options surrounding her in the game is generating this sort of controversy is a good thing. Yes, it’s bad that there are people who will gain sick, perverse pleasure out of a twi’lek slave, but it is equally impressive that there are people who will feel repulsed, guilty or just plain squicky about the idea of playing a character who subjugates another person (female or not, alien or otherwise). It’s the kind of controversy that we need in science fiction, and shying away from it or white-washing it just because some perverts might get a thrill out of it is the wrong thing to do. Maybe Bioware should have worked in a way where the player could choose a male or female slave–I imagine that would generate some interesting metrics for Bioware’s marketing dept. to study, anyway.

In the end, we need to remember that it’s better to have something that causes discomfort and prompts us to consider why at times than to white-wash all of our fictions purely for ease of mind.  

What you mean is this is why YOU have started to hate female gamers. From everything you’ve posted here it sounds as if you hate females in general. Oh yeah, the rape threats and abuse we get online, it’s all our fault. Again. Nice victim-blaming, sorry we actually have opinions on things that concern us instead of just staying in the kitchen. All your posts here reek of MRA. I’m sorry you got hurt and that your past has been traumatic. But this isn’t the place for you to vent. That’s what psychologists are for. It’s a shame the Mary Sue administrators are letting you empty your emotional baggage here because it really isn’t the place, and turning this from a safe-space to one where bigotry and insensitivity are reigning supreme. if I want to see this kind of thing I’ll go to Reddit.

Question: You feel that a witer is allowed to use the “N”-word in their work if it fits the story. Since this topic isn’t about a writer’s story in the traditional sense but an interactive experience, do you feel it makes a difference if you read or watch a character use the “N”-word, or if you are the character and given the option to use the “N”-word?

So… you just kinda show up whenever there’s a gender specific discussion to bust chops?  Can you explain to me why I get abused in online gaming and none of my male friends do?  It couldn’t be sexism or anything cos it doesn’t exist in the western world.  What else could it be?

This is why I read TMS; well written articles that don’t just flash react, but seek a deeper meaning and context. 

Actually, that’s almost exclusively what he does. 

Very convincing arguments.  I tend to agree, they could easily have averted it by making the prisoner male or even some genderless species, or one whose gender is hard for us hunams to determine.

I know there’s a questline in wow that I noticed a certain small detail on and stopped to appreciate the devs avoidance tactic.  It occurs in the firelands when you have to help capture a flame druid with magic chains.  You can choose a male or female one, but the one permanently chained to the rockface for questioning is male.  And they make sure neither looks “sexy” when you do so, instead they just look stunned and whoozy and about to fall forward.  In other words, no arched backs and sexily positioned legs.

Sorry I used wow as an example, please don’t lambast me.  I don’t play SWTOR and if I ever left WOW as my main game it would be to LOTRO (which I have a life time membership with).  Those two games are more than enough for me if I’m to get anything else done in life lol.

Actually, I think I agree with this more than my own post.  They should make the gender a choice (or an alien species not typically sexy whom we don’t know the gender of).  Not that making them different sends a positive message either.  The whole thing makes me uncomfortable, even if it were an animal.

Seems a good rule of thumb to make the gender a choice and crack down hard on misogynistic speech over public channels (no slaps on the wrist).  Make it known that you are encouraged to report it and that it will be investigated and those found violating the no hate speech rules (broad category for whatever rules they have against hateful ooc behavior) could face expulsion from the game or something.

It’d be a bit easier to accept this part of the game if you didn’t also have to listen to misogynistic hate speech in public channels and forums.

Yup. I agree that addressing the inherent cultural issues players bring with them into the game is NOT best served by censoring the game.
Yes, I agree completely with the argument the writer made that this is different to killing because of the actual social mindset the player brings with them to the action (and also the fact there is no male equivalent). But again, censoring something that is actual Star Wars cannon is not the solution.
I will say this though as far as the Cannon argument goes. There is definitely overrepresentation of a character that was seen for what was relataively a small amout of the movies.

Not at all. I show up for all sorts of things, its just happens to be that conversations like this one get much more attention then the one about the historical accuracy of erotic paintings in roman buildings not being considered pornography during the roman empire.

“Can you explain to me why I get abused in online gaming and none of my male friends do?”

Sure they do. You just don’t notice because they aren’t constantly complaining about it. As someone else said, if you don’t like the language in general chat in whatever game you are in, “REPORT IT!” Thats what the report function is for. An if its on audio chat, then consider changing servers if its a FPS & if its a MMO just don’t associate with those people. Its not exactly rocket science Joanna.

You have no expectation of people to be kind to you, anymore then i do: Which is to say “none at all.”

“Oh yeah, the rape threats and abuse we get online, it’s all our fault”

Male players get that too. Its not unique to women. ITs shit spoken by 14 year old keyboard warriors who have realised that they can talk absolute shit because they’ve been removed from a world with consequences.

“I’m sorry you got hurt and that your past has been traumatic”

Um, theres no trauma, no hurt… Just emperical fact.

“It’d be a bit easier to accept this part of the game if you didn’t also have to listen to misogynistic hate speech in public channels and forums.”

you don’t have to. Thats what the report function is for.

It is special pleading, because it is a special case. I haven’t played this game nor intend to, so I can not make any real judgement. But from what I gather, this isn’t about what you can do or not as villain, but who is the victim. There is a difference between harm done to a random person and someone you have a connection to, and a difference to one’s ability to do harm to a random person and someone known. Maybe all the other harm you can do as a Sith goes up and personal as well, but I gather Vette’s potential suffering is made much more prominent. If so, than nothing else you can do as Sith creates a context that justifies her abuse. As for her being female, it is relevant. Why I won’t play this game is because I’ve played enough games like this with a semi-open world that’s still miraculously closed to the wishes of women. I’ve never seen a male character be put in the derogatory role of sexy personal buttmonkey, only females, even when I choose a female avatar (lets keep the whole question of sexuality out of this. That’s another icky matter). Heather from Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines comes to mind as the first time I got peeved by this, and I wasn’t even given much option to abuse her and order her around. 

Again, didn’t play this game, don’t intend to, can’t judge, but the people jumping on the defensive saying this is what Sith do really do not seem to understand that details make differences.

What about being taken seriously when you take “plot protection” for 50% of the population for granted?

Will there be an option to slap a dude on his arse? Or am I nagging now?

No, seriously. I asked my brother what he thought of the situation. He didn’t find it necessarily wrong, but did dislike the fact the shock collar only comes on Vette. He would’ve favored to see it possible to take off the collar and place it on whomever he’d choose.

There is no such thing as valid plot immunity.

“It is special pleading, because it is a special case”

No its not. An trying to plead that it is a special case is in its self special pleading. You’ve tried to introduce favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations.

In this case the consideration you are trying to include is “but you don’t know these other people who you are slaughtering.”

This is a consideration that is flawed. For starters it doesn’t matter if you know them or not: You are still perpetrating deliberate violence on people, in some cases (from what i’ve been lead to understand,) to people that have been built up within the story over time. This would immediately invalidate your above point, even if it were not special pleading.

The role of the Sith in the game is to potentially play a sociopathic killer, who kills, maims & tortures without mercy. HOWEVER at no point does this game necessitate this course of action. You may choose any alternative from not playing a Sith at all, to not playing out that particular conversation tree (freeing her from the shock collar).

You above statement is most assuredly Special Pleading & its not warranted.

“Will there be an option to slap a dude on his arse? Or am I nagging now?”

If bioware hasn’t included this in one of there games yet, i’m sure it won’t be long before they do.

“He would’ve favored to see it possible to take off the collar and place it on whomever he’d choose.”

An that Parrotbeak is why its Special Pleading…. Its a case of “Dont you dare shock a woman… But totally let me shock any other character i want to, because thats totally not the same thing”

“Very convincing arguments.  I tend to agree, they could easily have averted it by making the prisoner male or even some genderless species, or one whose gender is hard for us hunams to determine.”

how is that any better? Is it not torture if its not a woman… Does pain not hurt now if you are of an indeterminate gender?

It makes a difference whether you know or not. When people kill their supposed friends in real life, the public outcry and confusion is greater than with a random murder. In the Illiad, we read line after line about the named warriors slaughtering thousands of unnamed warriors, but we’re supposed to care only when the named ones fall. And this is still a basic in storytelling: a bunch of characters less invested in to die just to create cotnext, and a few characters invested in and whose fate the story and audience care for. Heck, one version of the story of Midas witht the donkey ears has the protagonist save his life by eating lunch with Midas and thus forcing him to acknowledge his victim as a fellow human being.

This is basic human ‘tribe’ thinking. Whether this, based on what you said you heard, is actually something that separates Vette’s case from the others and therefore relevant to the matter is one thing, but you cannot deny that it matters how much you know someone for your ability and morality to harm them.

And what you just keep consistently ignoring is that the game’s freedom is limited to abusing your first companion, who is female, or not. You can’t choose to abuse a male companion the same way you can abuse Vette. That’s the issue here. Not whether you are forced to actually harm Vette. I guess I could throw some fancy words your way now, but I like to think I can make my case without trying to intimidate with questionable psychological trivia.

What anyone very possibly is gonna do is not nearly as relevant as what anyone has done. 

And did you just purposefully misconstrue my words? I never mentioned the word “woman” in my brother’s opinion, because that’s not what he was talking about. He wants to be able to shock a character of his choosing based on how they act, not based on what gender they have. If it’s a female character he wishes to shock based on how they act, he will, but not because a female character is the only given that option for. 

“It makes a difference whether you know or not. When people kill their supposed friends in real life, the public outcry and confusion is greater than with a random murder”

We aren’t talking about real life Parrotbeak… In real life when you see a magical man who is waving a sword made out of light, you get sent to a place with padded walls. You are still trying to insert subjective logic in the form of special pleading.

“You can’t choose to abuse a male companion the same way you can abuse Vette.”

You can’t choose to abuse a female companion the say way you can abuse Vette, either. So again its a moot point, made via Special Pleading. Vette is a specific character, with a specific story, with specific variables.

” I guess I could throw some fancy words your way now, but I like to think I can make my case without trying to intimidate with questionable psychological trivia.”

Those aren’t fancy words, there simple rhetorical concepts, that everyone should be aware of. Unfortunately “Critical Thinking” is not taught in the American school system (mores the pity).

I’m not American, though I figure you are for thinking I am. Kinda turns your complaint the other way around. And fyi, I did get lessons in how to debate and which type of arguments are acceptable. Your references to psychological situations qualify as intimidation according to my country’s school system.

And the rest of my examples were cases of fiction. Though I do find it fascinating how you seem to deny there’s a relation between emotions and philosophies placed in and taken from a story and emotions and philospophies placed in and taken from reality.
Vette is female, and only her you can abuse this way. There’s no male companion, if necessary an alternative you meet if you choose a female avatar, with a similar potential for abuse. Vette’s variables, in this game and in about every other one, are exclusive to female character. That’s what this is about.

I found a few points to address here, so I’m gonna break your post into sections…

–”You feel that a witer is allowed to use the “N”-word in their work if it fits the story.”

Yes, I do. 

–”Since this topic isn’t about a writer’s story in the traditional sense” 

Not in the “traditional” sense of words on paper, but it is still very much a writer’s story. Somebody wrote the scenarios the players take their characters through. Somebody gave personality to the NPCs and wrote their dialogue — in fact, somebody wrote the player’s dialogue as well. Somebody “told” every possible variation of the story before the first player ever touched it.

–”but an interactive experience,”

I have to call Semantics on you here. Tetris is an interactive experience. Role-playing games (and especially BioWare games) are *collaborative*. For all the reasons I listed above.
The player brings his choices and his ideas of what an interesting character path might be to the table, but he’s only able to make them happen because the designer already thought of it. 

Yes, the gamer decides his or her own experience, but that no more precludes the contributions of the game designer than a Choose Your Own Adventure book would.

If someone wrote a Choose Your Own Adventure book about the racial experience in America where the reader could decide whether to follow the path of the racist or the right-minded individual, I’d absolutely call that a worthwhile artistic exercise. 

And if somebody then decided to change all instances of the “N” word in the book to something less offensive, I would call it a violation of the art and the intentions of the artist.

A storyteller’s integrity rests on the honesty of their story. They can lie to their audience all they want, but their honesty is what makes the lies believable. It gives the thing more meaning than just a depiction of a series of events.

So, to answer your question…

–”do you feel it makes a difference if you read or watch a character use the “N”-word, or if you are the character and given the option to use the “N”-word?

Nope.

You’re taking this a little too defensive and ”
call Semantics” where you don’t really have to. I only needed to know, since you compared a book with a game, if you were also cool with players given the option to use the “N”-word. You are. I have now no doubts anymore on the validity of your POV on artistic freedom as explained in your original post. I may not agree with it, but you are consistent in your reasoning and present a valid viewpoint. That’s all that I needed to be sure of.

You’re taking this a little too defensive and ”
call Semantics” where you don’t really have to. I only needed to know, since you compared a book with a game, if you were also cool with players given the option to use the “N”-word. You are. I have now no doubts anymore on the validity of your POV on artistic freedom as explained in your original post. I may not agree with it, but you are consistent in your reasoning and present a valid viewpoint. That’s all that I needed to be sure of.

To those arguing that there should have been a male alternative option to the female slave in the game, I think there’s something being missed here.

When I watched that video, I noticed two things right away:

1) Vette is never sexualized, whether in her basic interactions or when being tortured. She balks at being included in the PC’s sexscapades and her torture moments are only ever presented as painful and upsetting; there’s no faux S&M overtures to it.

That alone is notable for a race that is most well known for being basically sex slaves. This tells me that BioWare is aware of the dangerous political line they’re walking, and so are making certain that the depictions in the game are never presented in a positive or alluring light (unless you, the player, are fucked in the brain — and, let’s be honest, playing a game with pretty sunflowers and puppies isn’t going to make a brain-fucked player any less brain-fucked).

That, in turn, tells me something else…

2) Vette is a character. Even in that brief video, it’s obvious to see she has a personality, a history, and motivations, and is not necessarily subject to the stereotypes associated with her fictional race. She is a person. A person in a very unfortunate situation that you, as the PC, are given the opportunity to make better or worse, and those choices will affect your interactions with her which, in turn, affects the path of your story.

So, if they had decided to give you a Male or Female option, or to change the gender of the character based on the gender of the PC… what does that say about that character? That “Vette”, the person, is interchangeable? That you would get the same personality, the same motivations, the same story either way? Doesn’t that, in effect, make the character’s gender ONLY matter when deciding whether you want a male or female slave? How is that better??

In Dragon Age: Origins, the PC’s gender changes what type of path your story takes. In Dragon Age 2, you’re given either a brother or a sister companion at the start of the game. They are unique characters with unique strengths and personalities, and their inclusion is based on the *class* (Warrior, Rogue, Wizard) you choose during character creation… not the gender.

That’s because BioWare characters are *people* first and foremost. Not a collection of pixels representing a body type. Just like every other BioWare character, I’d bet that Vette has a story that they are trying to tell. 

Swapping out the “he” or “she” of it while leaving everything else intact just plays into the same antisocial mindsets (which are always going to be there), while losing the artistic integrity and respect for gender-identity BioWare showed in deciding, “This is the person in the slave cage, take her or leave her.”

Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off defensive. :) 

It was a case of me trying several times to respond to your question, and then realizing I was drifting into an entirely other argument. So, I just broke the thing up to make my specific points.

Please, take it more as verbosity on my part, rather than aggression. I like debates. :D

Hey, chuckles, are you trying to hit all the points on this card in the comments section? If so, great job there keeping the world safe for the oh-so-endangered patriarchy there, sparky. http://hoydenabouttown.com/20080218.1460/antifeminist-bingo-2/

“If you live anywhere in the western world then you live in a
world where women are the most protected, pampered & enabled
societal group in the history of the world.”

Uh-huh. I’d quote the actual statistics at you on how often women are raped in your supposedly Matriarchal Utopia  that is the Western World but I’m sure you’d already have a snide, skewed argument to dismiss that too. I honestly feel sorry for you and the cold, lonely hatred of women you obviously feel.

Hey folks, here’s a thought – how about instead of replying to this obvious troll and giving him his jollies, you go here and donate a buck to charity instead? http://www.rainn.org/

Eh. No. They don’t.  There’s shit talking.  And then there’s harassment.  The shit talking I don’t mind.  The bombardment of “show me your tits or I’ll rape you.” I do mind.  My guy friends don’t get that.  They don’t get pictures of other guys junk for no reason.  They don’t get “get back in the kitchen” or “Marry me, slut.” in their inboxes.  And yes, I have reported them, smart ass, but there’s always more where that came from and they always come back.  I don’t want special treatment.  I wanted to be treated the same as my friends.

Then don’t play with them. I’ve black listed many servers for different games for just that reason.

“I’d quote the actual statistics at you on how often women are raped in your supposedly Matriarchal Utopia”

10% male, to 25% female in the united states. A difference of 15%. Its a shame that every other crime is in the other direction & the gap is considerably larger. I mean lets not even get into the fact that Sexual attacks on males are counted as aggravated assaults or sex offenses, not just “rape,” depending on the circumstances and the extent of any injuries (unbalancing any statistical analysis to an ungodly degree). In fact according to the FBI’s crime stats, potentially 90% of attempted sexual assults to men may have been classified as “aggravated assault.”
Every single international & national governmental health group has demonstrably shown that non reciprocal IPV is just as likely to be committed by women, as is reciprocal. However there are less then 50 IPV focused mens shelters world wide, yet thousands for women just in the contential US.

There are female only federal scholarships, yet none open to just men (even though women make up approx 70% of college intake).

Women can retired 6 year earlier then men, an the amount of health centres that pander to only women versus only men that are government funded is something like 1 to 10 in favour of women. An over the last last 10 years the U.S has brought in new laws specifically to protect women, even though the evidence shows that they aren’t unduly at risk when compared to men (yes, i’m talking about VAWA).

Add into that, women having to pass reduced physical entry exams for physical fileds like fire fighting or military service & there is no way you can say women in the western world aren’t protected, pampered & enabled by society. Its just not a defensibile position to argue from.

I usually enjoy things here, finding the articles to not be too overly ‘Girl Power’. Mostly what I saw here was “It’d be okay if it was a white male.” Last I checked, both slavery and torture were bad things, no matter who you were. 

Yes, that’s true.  But the white male was never really oppressed throughout history to the extent that women were.  I guess people feel uncomfortable because they associate the torture of a virtual woman with how women were treated in history.  And when you get people who fap to this kind of shit you have to wonder if women are really out of the woods yet regarding being viewed as second class citizens… or slaves in this case =P  

Ha!  You still didn’t answer my question =P

um, what question was that?

The people who actually get off and fap to this stuff are the very small minority. Just like people who like tentacle porn. Or have a scat fetish. You can’t use the reaction of a small measure of the population to demonize everyone else. That said, you can’t really say men are causing this. If we’re trying to be fair here we have to include women into this sort of thing. And Tentacle porn…. Eeeeew. How do you know those comments in game are from males? Gender bias is a terrible thing. Women can be just as awful as any man.
The fact of the matter is, it’s a game. It’s not making a political statement. It’s not trying to get anyone off. It’s trying to tell a story. As with any story, you choose what parts you read and you decide who you feel about it. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, and neither are you. They knew an emotional reaction would be garnered by players and that’s what they wanted. I don’t think they planned on it being sexual.

As far as women being out of the woods, no you’re not. Sadly, most men ARE douchebags, but mostly not to the extent of actually enslaving a woman and torturing her. Unless she’s into that sort of thing. :P

Why do I get sent say pictures of some guys junk, and my male friends don’t?  Why do I get treated differently?

Ha!  I suppose they are a minority, but they are also the ones that make the most noise and draw attention to themselves.  They usually are the ones that give gamers in general a bad name.  I suppose I have come across some women that are kind of weird like that, but they are an even smaller minority and don’t make as much noise.

“Sadly, most men ARE douchebags, but mostly not to the extent of actually enslaving a woman and torturing her.”

You should read manboobz.com.  They author finds the most despicable misogynists online and there’s a disturbing number of them too.

No idea, why do you get some guy junk sent to you in image form? Why specifically you?

Well it happens to other girls too.  But it couldn’t be because we’re girls cos that would be silly.

It happens to other guys too. An it doesn’t happen to other guys, or some other girls too. So why do YOU get them: no idea.

Mayhap you are just playing with the wrong people.

Yes you do.  But not to worry.  You white, straight males have it pretty hard in life as it is so I’ll leave you be.

Just because a portion is loud doesn’t make it the whole population. 

What I’m really against is being told I am part of the problem, when I am not.

Oh, silly me. I couldn’t smell the “men’s rights” stench on you. 

You are a troll. Stop trolling here. Go back to every other nerd site on the internet where you can peddle this shit with impunity. 

Now, everyone else, let’s commence ignoring this troll. 

ahahaha, women are such a joke. Over reading and reacting every little crap nobody gives a shit about. That’s why they should stick to the kitchen.

Back in your mama’s basement.  Shoo!

That is true and it’s really disheartening to see people of either gender be turned off gaming completely because of the few assholes that ruin it for everybody.  One of my guy friends who loves Street Fighter stopped playing online cos he’s so sick of the eejits he had to put up with.  It’s sad really.

Matthew Lane does make some valid points that actually reside at the core of the overall
problem. We DO, as a society, tend to overemphasize and perpetuate the myth of
female helplessness while conversely ignoring and belittling the male victim.
The former does women no favors, and the latter harms real people, men who are
suffer spousal abuse, rape, kidnapping, etc. (men go missing all the time; ever
hear the media talk about them? It’s always Missing White Woman Syndrome). We
have a ridiculous obsession with the “damsel in distress”.
Equality means accepting that males suffer the
same problems women do (rape, abuse, etc). The only way to get these issues
taken seriously is to embrace that truth, and get things like “rape is funny
when it happens to a man” out of our heads.
That said, I think, as others here have posted,
that the true issue with the slave-collar debate IS the conspicuous lack of a
male counterpart. The thing is, this character isn’t INCIDENTALLY female; she
was obviously created as fanservice. The whole scenario taps into an
unfortunate classic het male sex-fantasy trope: a female slave you get to
control and even romance! Yay! She’s not a fighter, or agent, or anything that
could be considered equal to the tormentor: she is a slave.

Having ONLY the option for a female companion you
can dominate in this capacity does come off as glaring and pernicious. If the
option existed for equal opportunity abuse, it wouldn’t stand out so much, and
gender would become a non-issue.

To Joey Cruz: Actually, it is sexualized. Not only is the character romance-able, the player can actually force her to watch him sleep with another woman. Second, are you aware that Vette later hints to the player that she “liked” the torture?
Then there’s the fact that you can have a female to own as a possession, and nowhere in the game does there exist a male with a similar function. The male version need not be a replacement for Vette, rather his own, unique “person”. A runaway slave your bounty hunter is charged with capturing, for instance, or a Republic spy recently captured by the Sith.
And just to be sick, as a female player, why can’t I have the “pleasure”
of a male slave to torture, if I so choose? It’s still despicable, but since
this kind of tackiness is obviously never going away and likely to only get
worse, we can at least level the playing field by extending the same treatment
to “hawt” male eye-candy (these kinds of characters are almost ALWAYS women).
We have a scenario that appeals to one sick taste, and not an equivalent.

–”To Joey Cruz: Actually, it is sexualized. Not only is the character romance-able, the player can actually force her to watch him sleep with another woman.”

Maybe “sexualized” was a little too amorphous a term to use in my argument. What I meant is that she isn’t portrayed as a sexual fantasy for the player. She’s not dressed in skimpy, revealing clothing and her personality shines through as strong and clever, not vampish or submissive. 

That she’s a romance option doesn’t diminish that, and her *reaction* to being forced to watch the PC’s sexual encounter only enforces it. She’s resistant and incredulous at it. This is all shown in the video; she’s not a caricature of an overly sexualized race, she’s a character with standards and boundaries. 

–”Second, are you aware that Vette later hints to the player that she “liked” the torture?”

All I know of the game is what I’ve read in this and the Kotaku article and what I’ve seen in the 5 minute video. If she later reveals that she enjoyed the torture, well, I’d have to see how that revelation is played in order to judge if it’s bad storytelling or not, but if that’s the character they’ve written, I’m not about to say she’s not allowed to be that. Is it a shameful admission, a suggestive one? Just like what I mentioned above, the context is everything.

What I saw in the video is someone who is constantly struggling for some equitable standing in the relationship, and every time she gets shocked for it, it hurts, humiliates, and frustrates her. As a right-minded individual, I find nothing about that suggestive or alluring, and I stand by my assessment that offering a male alternative would do nothing to help.

–”Then there’s the fact that you can have a female to own as a possession, and nowhere in the game does there exist a male with a similar function.”

And THAT’s why… because, by ‘similar function’, you’re not referring to character interaction or story. You’re talking about torture and humiliation. You’re boiling the worth of the character down to what you can do to her, which is EXACTLY the mentality of those degenerate assholes the original article writer was worried about.

A misogynistic douchebag looks at Vette and sees only a female representation to act out some sadistic fantasies on. So, how does providing a male alternative — even if he is his own unique character — improve the situation? Equal-opportunity douchebaggery? 

–”And just to be sick, as a female player, why can’t I have the “pleasure”
of a male slave to torture, if I so choose? It’s still despicable, but since
this kind of tackiness is obviously never going away and likely to only get
worse, we can at least level the playing field by extending the same treatment
to “hawt” male eye-candy (these kinds of characters are almost ALWAYS women).We have a scenario that appeals to one sick taste, and not an equivalent.”

Holy shit. I’m sure you’re a perfectly nice person, but are you *reading* what you’re typing? Do you understand how providing a more “level playing field” to appeal to a broader range of twisted personalities is NOT a good thing? Don’t you see how doing so CREATES the exact problem this entire article is talking about?

Giving players a choice between a male or female slave INVITES sexual-bias and misogyny into the decision making process right off the bat. Before they know anything about who these characters are or what their stories are about, the player would be forced to make a decision to keep one of them as a slave based on what is or isn’t dangling between their legs.

As it exists now, a player comes into the game and is given a slave. They then have the option to free the slave or torture her. Some will free her, some will choose torture, and only a small fraction of those who choose torture MIGHT bring some element of their own misogyny to the experience. Why would any storyteller in their right mind undercut the relevance of that character’s identity in order to allow for more equal-opportunity-hatred on the part of a fraction of the audience that doesn’t even deserve to be acknowledged?

Fuck. That. Call it a non-issue, and let the wrong-headed assholes lug their own baggage alone.

(sorry for the rant, but jesus, sometimes people’s reasoning upsets me)

They totally need to make a game where we can shock collar the whole galaxy.

“sometimes people’s reasoning upsets me”
Same here; only I didn’t resort to swearing or name-calling.

I promise you I overlooked nothing. And while I tried not to be insulting, I definitely intended to call you out on what I consider to be a pretty drastic flaw in your thinking. If that strikes you as a personal attack, so be it. And I like to swear… sorry. But F-bombs notwithstanding, I think my points are valid.

To clarify, I didn’t take your “just to be sick” comment as a real reflection of you as a person, and I don’t think you’re purposefully perpetuating that twisted mentality… but I do think you are doing so accidentally.Unless I misunderstand, the core of your argument is that there should be a male character who is subject to the same potentially bad treatment that Vette is, in order to make the “torture/enslavement” aspect of the game fairly balanced between genders.Correct?If so, then my response is that torture/enslavement is not the *point* of the character, the story, or the game, and that creating a male equivalent for the sole purpose of being able to torture/enslave both genders reflects and perpetuates the sort of mindset that would play the game *only* for the simulated torture aspect. It effects NO positive change on the game or gender politics in general.I’m all for equality between men and women, but in this case I think you and others are a little lost in the woods.

I’ll be honest with you, the twi’lek are indeed the most abused race in the star wars universe, but the most sexualized are the Zeltron… While not really brought to the light until the time of Cade Skywalker, at least not in any movies/books/comics, their entire species is mainly about sex and therefore the most sexualized.

Oh, I agree swearing has a time and place. Just not so much in the context of debate. And the “sick” comment was not referring to my personal desires—it was a hypothetical, which is why it was worded that way. Your reaction to a hypothetical was a little overblown.

Obviously the solution is avoiding this kind of content altogether—which is unlikely to happen, ever. We shouldn’t even be having this conversation because the writers should have has better taste than all that. Given the industry’s track record for its portrayal of women in games, it was a stupid move on Bioware’s part in the first place. I don’t even see how it has much to do with storytelling, since a light side companion doesn’t even really make sense in the context.

And let’s stop pretending the character and gender were part of some “artistic choice” when her inclusion is clearly fanservice.

The following is an actual quote from swtor.com forum:
“Vette begging me to release her and not torture her was kinda hot.”

And yes, her later admission that she enjoyed the torture IS suggestive.

They knew what they were doing.

“Giving players a choice between a male or female slave INVITES sexual-bias and misogyny into the decision making process right off the bat.”
NOT if it’s a separate character in a separate scenario, as I suggested. No one
would have to “undercut character identity” or whatever if the alternative were
presented as a separate person (for a different class, for example).

I’ve had plenty of great debates chock full of profanity, but that’s neither here nor there. 

Also, I already acknowledged that I didn’t take your “sick” comment seriously. My overblown reaction was to the point you were making with your hypothetical example; ie: if there’s a female slave, there should be a male slave also, just to, you know, keep it equal. My thoughts on that have already been made pretty clear, I think.

The rest of your responses… just hammer home that you don’t get it. And nothing I say here is likely to make you get it. Live long and prosper.

You came to the Mary Sue, a site with a gender equality approach to geek media, willfully misunderstood a nuanced, well-written article examining aspects of this game in a greater context, created a fallacious argument based on a strawman tangentially related to the article, are not arguing in good faith, and willfully misunderstanding comments as well. So yes. I would characterize that as being either a troll, an asshole, or both.

Except that i’m fighting for equality & unfortunately the above article does not state that no matter who the bad thing happens to it is always equally bad. It instead says “oh no, this bad thing is happening to a woman, thats bad.”

Now either the bad thing happens to no one on the basis that its bad, or its okay for it to happen to potentially anyone within the fictional construct of a computer game & by extension someone who happens to be female. This article states an opinion based on emotionalised special pleading, which disagrees with the initial premise of “equality”

This argument that “bad things” should not happen to fictional female characters is refered to as “plot immunity” & in this case “Gender Specific Plot Immunity”.

In a game where you beat, kill, mutilate, execute (people in front of there kids) & poison entire towns because its expedient, shocking a prisoner with a shock collar is par for the evil course.

So tell me why should a female character in a fictional construct be immune to negative plot connotations specifically on the basis of gender?

(I think the thread got too deep because disqus wouldn’t let me respond to your latest comment, so I’m responding here)

Others have already addressed the exact points that you made, as did the article. You are deliberately ignoring the nuance and greater context of both this article and the issue of this character. I’ll explain it again.

This game does not exist in a vacuum. The writer of this article herself examines the ways in which she herself holds double-standards and contradictory feelings about this issue, because it is a complex one – specifically how she would perceive the character of the slave with the shock collar differently if the slave were a white man (such as the alien species in question is “white” – you know what I mean), or a man of color, or a woman of color. You are making a common fallacy that “equal” is the same as “the same.” Because of cultural contexts, it is not the same to depict a person of color as a slave as it would be to depict a white person as a slave. Likewise, the issue here is that it is not the same for the male player character to torture a female slave, in a sexualized way, as it would be for him to torture a male slave (sexualized or not).

No one here is saying that “bad things” should not happen to female characters in media. You’ll notice that the writer differentiates between the individual torturing of the slave character and the mass-murders that the Sith player character also does – but doesn’t say that the Sith character should only murder men. Rather, the writer is saying that the way the game is written and depicted is problematic and in poor taste, similar to how it would be in poor taste if a fantasy game depicted exclusively slaves of color (or any other issue that is not “equal” but is problematic due to cultural contexts). If your response to what I and others are saying in this thread were made analogous to that issue, you would reply “so you’re saying that games shouldn’t show slaves then? even to show that a character is really evil?” No. We are saying that it is extra problematic to depict things like this in certain ways.

If you would actually like to discuss this issue, I find this link http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/ on how to be a fan of problematic things a really good starting place. It explains, for a start, why the answer to “I find an aspect of this media I otherwise enjoy problematic” is not “then don’t watch / play / read it and leave me alone.”

I’ll say one more thing on this general topic. A lot of the
problem here has to do with the fact that this character doesn’t just “happen”
to be female; she is female because a team of game designers sat down and conscientiously
created a female character players could possess and torture, and not only that, a character who is also a potential love interest. I included the
alternate scenario (being able to do the same thing to a man) to put the whole
thing in perspective. And objection to the idea of a male counterpart somewhere
in the game suggests the outrage over the inclusion of Vette (or at least the way
she was handled regarding player choices that revolve around the character) is
justified.

It really goes beyond keeping things equal. It is a matter
of disproportionate representation coupled with perception. It’s about how
perceptions are shaped. These types of characters are, again, disproportionately
female, which really says something about the industry in general. And this
scenario takes the problem a step further into some very creepy territory. What
message does it send when a medium already widely considered unfriendly towards
women includes this kind of content, which lends itself to such open misogyny
as the comment I listed above? Unfortunately, many males do not see women as
equals, and these portrayals contribute to that. The
disproportionate number of females in such roles perpetuates many other faulty
assumptions as well.

Some will say it’s all right since they’re not glorifying torture,
but when designers knowingly include a character with such options, knowing
that a significant portion of the audience will take advantage of it to the
most disturbing possible levels, it’s hard not to question the reasoning. (And when
one considers light side/dark side gear incentives, it gets worse).

But here is the most important thing to remember: Fact is,
some people can only identify with characters of their own gender. Some women
can only identify with female characters, and many males in particular have
trouble identifying with female characters. It’s a mindset I don’t understand,
but it does exist.

 It accomplishes
nothing when such (male) individuals disproportionately see women (characters
they don’t relate to) serving functions such as Vette’s. Perhaps exposing such individuals
to a parallel scenario, involving a character with whom they CAN relate
(personality and all), might place these kinds of depictions into perspective.

It’s very possible that if a few of these sickos taking
erotic titillation from Vette’s situation witnessed similar treatment exacted
on a relatable male character, they might grow uncomfortable and re-think the
way they perceive eroticized torture, or objectification in general. Some
people can’t understand why something is a problem until it affects them
directly. If they don’t identify with females and all they see are females in
positions like this…well, it’s hard to even open a debate, because, to them, it’s
“not a big deal”.

I think of an example I saw in a MK forum not long ago.
Women were complaining about the near-nudity of the female characters. Male
posters were responding with the usual “it’s just a game”. Then a female posted
an image of the male characters in the same slutty costumes. The initial
response was an explosion of “that’s disgusting!” and “that’s ridiculous”. But
once this died down, some of the posters who earlier dismissed it started
saying “you know, now that I think about it, this is kind of stupid.” They had
to see their own gender cast in a similar light before they accepted that, just
maybe, there was something wrong with it.

The sith inquisitor can Shock almost all the galaxy , not Darth Zash cuz she can shock us harder , ( at least at level 22 :( )

Acting evil in game has to have limits. Despite any caveats the game offers this is violence with a strong sexual nature, and there is no place in a game for that. Speaking with my psychologist hat on, as I am one, people are influenced by what they see – and something as immersive and engrossing as ToR shouldn’t encourage violence with a sexual component. Its the linking of violence and sex here that really troubles me.

The gender is irrelevant here for that. There shouldn’t be any slave you can torture.

*Be forewarned, I might spoil a few plot points in my comment.  If that bothers you, do not read it.*

I’m very conflicted about Vette, to be honest.  I will start by saying, I am male, but almost every single one of my Star Wars characters is female.  It’s been like that for me in most games.  As a self-professed Whedonite, I love strong female lead roles (akin to Buffy The Vampire Slayer and other Joss Whedon staples), and I play one every chance that I get.
Naturally, my Sith Warrior is female.  In other games that allow it, I try to have as many female companions as possible, and usually a female love interest.  Now, I know what you are thinking about that…but the typically “girl-on-girl action, giddy giddy” response wouldn’t be completely accurate regarding my reasons for pursuing a same-sex relationship for my characters.  I think it may be best to say I choose a “mostly female cast” as a slap in the face to male bravado, that men are not always needed for the company of heroes to succeed.

Bioware hasn’t implemented same-sex relationships “yet” but from what I understand they have plans to do so.  So, currently I try to get in the good graces of the companions I wish to romance as soon as possible.  But with Vette…I left the shock collar on.  It wrenches my gut to do it, but I shocked her anyway.  Why?  I was honestly hoping for an interesting dynamic between master and slave that would lead to romance.  I guess the best way to put it would be a “female-only sub-dom type of relationship”.  Of course, I didn’t think Bioware would be straight-forward about this, given the game’s rating and all, but I thought at least there would be some satisfying hints leaning in this directly.

Alas, I learned today after doing further research that you cannot continue with Vette’s story, much less her romance options, if you leave the collar on.  She reaches a point where she will not speak to you unless you decide the take the collar off.  I haven’t gotten very far with my Sith Warrior (she is only an alt) and I’ve now chosen to take her collar off as soon as I can log back into the game tonight.  If there are no rewards for leaving it on, and no possible unique friendship or romance options, then there is no point.  It pains me enough as it is to shock her, and without a rewarding outcome…I can’t subject even a digital female character to that kind of treatment anymore.

What does that make me?  Am I a misogynist?  To be honest, I do not even know.  Of course I could never EVER do something like this in real life, but I’m still confused about my own moral standards as far as this is concerned.  What do you all think?

 Thank you for the article. I’d been doing a lot of thinking about this lately ever since the controversy first came to my attention, and I’ve been trying to find where my feelings lie on the subject. I feel like Bioware has, in general, done a good , best faith effort with the story given the limitations of the format. As such, I felt that most of the reactions were far overblown.

Nonetheless, it’s irresponsible to dismiss these reactions without putting some serious thought into the underlying issues, and questioning the biases that led to the developer’s decision. I find myself agreeing with the conclusion that you have come to – that while the content is not, in and of itself, blatantly sexist by design, it is sadly an expression of the institutionalized sexism of current American (and I guess Canadian since that’s where Bioware is housed) culture.

As expressed by the author, I do believe that this would be a non-issue if there were an equivalent male companion relegated to a similar role. Likewise, as expressed in the comments, it would be much less of an issue if there was an equal amount of hypersexualizing the male characters.

I ultimately don’t think it is something that Bioware should be decried as horrible and blatantly sexist for – but I do think it is something that, now that is has been pointed out, they should be sensitive too, and take action to be more equitable about.

Exactly. You are absolutely correct. The ONLY reason this is a gender issue at all has to do with the conspicuous lack of a similar male companion, coupled with the fact that these degrading and objectified roles are ALWAYS filled by female characters. And this game takes it a step further by allowing the gamer to participate. Couple the Vette situation with some of the game’s other insulting and sexist features, and you’ve got a pretty unfriendly experience to women players (The game also includes gender-specific “slave” gear that can ONLY be worn by female avatars, and again has no male equivalent. What sort of message does this send? Not to mention the cantinas chock-full of slutty female pole dancers—no male dancers in sight, of course). 

If these things, including the slave collar/torture content were more balanced gender-wise, it would not come off as such a glaring and misogynistic choice. It would still be creepy, sure. But it would cease to be a gender issue, and we could move on to a more productive conversation about the appropriateness of such content in general. 

I too would much love to see Bioware remedy the situation with future patches and content, but I’m not holding my breath.

on this page: female gamers continue to troll themselves (although not as hard as I’ve sometimes seen before)

And from another perspective, I bring you: “Sex Slave of the Sith!”

http://swtor-fic.livejournal.com/

Written by women, for women, in that long tradition that stretches AT LEAST back to Edith Maud Hull’s “The Sheik.”

In short, I think you’re missing one angle on this story — the angle by which women, too, are aroused by FANTASY depictions of sex-slavery. The idea that a story involving a (clearly wildly imaginary) depiction of a likable, fiery character being forced into submission by a powerful, dominant man would ONLY appeal to slavering, sexist men is…well, naive, and blinkered.

A lot of women enjoy rape or slave fantasies. That doesn’t mean we ACTUALLY want to be raped, no more than someone who enjoys a scary horror movie ACTUALLY wants to be dismembered by a serial killer. But according to the research I’ve seen, the rape fantasy tends to be among the most popular of female kinks.

Real-world slavery and rape makes me cry. It terrifies and appalls me. I am against it with every fiber of my being.

But those things that scare us often hold the strongest erotic charge. The Vette storyline VERY CLEARLY belongs to the world of fantasy; everything from the cartoonish depiction of the characters to the alien setting marks it as something that’s *not real*. Accordingly, a lot of players (male AND female) find it kinda hot.

I don’t think we need a lot of hand-wringing about that. And if you want to analyze it from a larger sociological perspective, you definitely need to account for all the women that are getting off on the same idea.

3 months too late and I don’t even know the site but this is simply NOT true.
You can’t “rape” her , force her to have sex with your character, nor can you shock her enough so that she starts to enjoy it and jumps into your bed.

The only way to get her to romance (and sleep) with you is by being nice to her. Honestly doing good things for her and her family.

You can shock her again and again and eventually she shows a reaction : SHE STOPS TALKING TO YOU. Being quite the talkative girl with a snappy comment in every situation this does mean you broke her will. She will talk to you again, if you take of the shock collar. You can never ever shock her again after you’ve taken it off nor will she talk to you as long as you leave it on.
In essence, Bioware forces you to take off the collar if you want to progress in Vette’s story. (so much for showing true colors…)

The article, while well written, has some key flaws and mistakes. You get no romance option with Vette for being evil to her. (Makes sense) You don’t get the best gear for having enough darkside points.You get enough darkside (or lightside) points without even talking to Vette. (making the whole “shock-situation” purely optional)
If you leave the shock collar on her, Vette actively provokes being shocked by giving snappy comments or just being completely stubborn.
Being snappy or stubborn does NOT justify violence against you in any means, don’t get me wrong here. But if I were a slave and an evil psychopath had the finger on the button for my shock collar I wouldn’t openly confront him and call him an a-hole… Vette does exactly that – in almost every conversation. (that’s where the “I think she likes it” – comments come from)

Please, if you comment on something delicate like that or write an article about it…. try to be better informed.
Yes, horrible things happen to real women in the real world. Yes, this whole “Vette shocking a-hole players” thingy can(!) feel VERY weird seen in the real world context.
But writing about “rape” and “you get rewarded for shocking Vette” when you can NOT rape her and you get WAY better rewarded for being nice to her is juist misinformed (article) or talking out of your a** (comment)

Sorry – had to vent this.

SERIOUSLY MARY SUE IS A DAMN REPOTID. FIGHT THE power. I THINK IT’S SEXIST THAT YOU THINK WOMEN CANNOT HANDLE BEING SHOCKED IN A GAME (WOMEN HAVE MANY BEAUTIFUL ACHIEVEMENTS AND I SHALL NOT LET YOU TAINT THEM). . . IA IA CTHULHU FTAGHN!!!!

So they should.. what?  Take out (or not have created at all) an immersive element of the game, because..  people you don’t like enjoy it in a way that you don’t like?

What is the deeper message here?  That because bad things happen to women in real life, bad things should not be portrayed as happening to women in fiction, since some people will enjoy making them happen in that fictional setting and those feelings may in some way carry over to real life?

How about addressing the problems rather than the symptoms?  I mean, isn’t the phenomena you’re describing more a matter of real life attitudes bleeding over into games rather than vice versa, assuming that there is any significant crossover at all?  I admit that there may be a bit of a feedback loop going on here, but if that is the case then what about bodice ripper style romance novels?  Slasher flicks (wherein the violence is brutal, visceral, and deliberately made as intense as possible)?  What shouldn’t be self-censored, if not censored by a larger authority (and I realize you are suggesting the former, not the latter, I’m just posing a question)?

Also, you singled out torturing a woman (or a black man)l- why?  Institutionalized slavery on a nationwide scale got kicked to the curb in the civilized world a while ago, and women gained the right to vote in most, if not all, of the countries where this game will be played (do they play much KOTOR in Saudi Arabia?  I’m genuinely asking) a while ago as well- but the Holocaust is comparatively more recent, as are other genocides that don’t seem to be getting much press these days….

And let me emphasize this: There are actual human beings being slaughtered as we “speak.”  Someone is dying in agony as you read this sentence.  Now, while Black people are still discriminated against, the last trip of the last slave ship took place quite some time ago, and while women are treated very, VERY badly, the worst of it is largely confined to parts of the world where they won’t be getting ideas from KOTOR (at least, nothing that wasn’t already in their heads).

So if a player shouldn’t have the option to shock a twi lek or a dark skinned man, then why give you the option to slaughter tons of helpless creatures or do any of the other evil things you do?  The argument that “well, there is oppression today” doesn’t cut it, because there is violence too- lots of it, and it is both a whole lot worse and universal.

I could yoink out the old canards about how many video games Genghis Khan played vs your average modern gamer, but you get the point.

Israel has a very strong army, and they use females in combat.