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Today in Depressing

So Here’s the Slut-Shaming, Homophobic Post on Superheroes by… the Director of Guardians of the Galaxy


Generally, I don’t make a habit of making news posts about things that happened on the Internet more than a year ago. Unless, of course, it managed to slip everyone’s attention and is just blowing up now. I also don’t make a habit of writing news posts about random people on the internet being jerks. Unless, of course, they’re not random people at all, but people with significant power over either legal matters or the media we consume.

The case of ”The 50 Superheroes You Most Want to Have Sex With,” or rather, the content of the commentary on the post of that name by writer/director James Gunn last year. See, in between last February and now, Gunn was tapped as the director for the first new set of characters to be introduced in the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s Phase 2, The Guardians of the Galaxy.

The post is dated February 11th, 2011, and apparently sat around for nearly two years before it was noticed recently. It was still live late last night when I noticed pretty much every comics-related blog I follow on Tumblr talking in various shades of disgust about its content, but it has since been taken down. Naturally, it’s still available by Google Cache.

Lets be clear: there’s nothing wrong about running a poll for the most sex-able superhero on your site, especially one where you embrace the fact that Batman and Gambit come in within the top five. There isn’t anything wrong, in that context, of choosing art that sexualizes the characters in it. There isn’t even anything wrong with talking explicitly about sex in your commentary on the poll results. What’s wrong is the sheer amount of slut-shaming (on only the female characters) and anti-gay language that Gunn directs towards the majority of the male characters. These are not opinions befitting somebody who’s been given the task of bringing a major part of the Marvel Universe to the big screen (a set of characters, I might add, that includes a lesbian superhero couple, not that they’ll be appearing in Guardians).

The screenshot at the top of this post is the entirety of what he has to say about Batwoman, which is both a reference to the idea that lesbians just need a good (read: streotypically masculine) man to have sex with them and they’ll be “cured” of their homosexuality, a delusion at the heart of an innumerable number of rapes; and a dig at Nightwing, one of the few male characters in comics who has actually gotten away with being drawn for the female gaze. Apparently, having been depicted as a female sex fantasy occasionally (and still with nowhere near the frequency that any given female character is drawn for the male gaze) instead of a male power fantasy literally makes him a woman.

(There’s some strong language and homophobic slurs in the rest of this post.)

Gambit is another character who gets drawn or written for the female gaze, and he comes in at number five even on a list not weighted for the gender or orientation of its polling base.  Says Gunn: “My girlfriend voted for this Cajun fruit.” He goes on to say that the idea of having sex with Gambit himself makes him sick to his stomach. Because, again, imagining a man as attractive to a woman necessarily requires you to imagine him as gay.

But let’s not end with the anti-gay sentiment! Sometimes, women are qualitatively less attractive because they have sex with people! “I sometimes think that the Black Canary is the hottest chick in the DC Universe until I remember that she, uh, fucks Green Arrow.” On Stephanie Brown, a teen mother who made the painful decision to give her baby up for adoption, “Being a teen mom and all, you know she’s easy. Go for it.” On the previous Batgirl, Cassandra Cain “She has the ultimate daddy issues.  Which means she’s just my type.” Many of Gunn’s other comments ride the line between what I would simply consider distasteful and what I can definitively call misogynistic, like when he says he’d have sex with Spider-Woman but he wouldn’t want to look at her face while doing it, so he’d make sure to ejaculate onto it, or that Emma Frost is great for guys who like “a rude bitch.”

This discovery of Gunn’s apparently joyful and public feelings about women and sexuality are, to say the least, deeply disappointing. The fact that it was out, on the internet, for more than a year before his attachment to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and not even taken down or otherwise covered up until now, is even more so. Gunn was also publicly endorsed by Joss Whedon. Plenty of the people I follow are saying they will personally boycott the movie or calling for Marvel Studios to remove him from the project. Boycotting a major release in the MCU is not something I personally have the professional ability to do (providing information on whether a movie treats its female characters with respect is something I consider to be a vital part of this site), or something I feel I can, personally, advocate for or against to other people. The extent to which one can separate the artist from their work is a very personal decision that varies from person to person. Additionally, Gunn is by no means the only person who will have made Guardians when the film rolls into theaters in 2014 or who stands to lose their job prospects or salary should it fail.

As for calling for Marvel to remove him… I could honestly see that happening if it gets enough buzz. The release date is still two years off, and we live in a world where Brett Ratner is pressured into resigning from producing the Oscars for a gay slur, surely fans can hold Marvel accountable for the behavior of the directors they choose. Whether their opinions will be numerous to be listened to is something I can’t be certain of.

Update: Here’s a good post by Rachel Edidin, editor at Dark Horse Comics, that says some things I wish I’d said about satire and intentions. If you’ve gotten this far, I highly recommend giving it a read.

Update: Gunn has since issued a sincere apology.

(via many places, but the link to the cached version of the page was found at Lady Geek Girl, and the original Tumblr post that brought it to my awareness was from BuckyCaps.)

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  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    Yeah, that about Batwoman alone would make me not want to see anything by this guy.

  • Jamie Jeans

    This isn’t surprising, this is the god damned norm from the grown man-children who run the majourity of Marvel and DC Comics.

    And having read that whole thing before they took it down, it’s so damned sexist in how it reduces all the women to sex objects. There’s no actual discussion of personality or anything like that, and it’s based almost entirely pn physical attraction.

    Not to mention how frigging homophobic it is. The comment about the Flash alone is garbage.

    This may be one person, but James Gunn is part of what’s wrong with geek culture in general, which still often acts in a very hostile manner to ANYONE they see as not belonging, be it LGBT people, white women, and people of colour.

    For example, Tony Harris and his arsehead thought policing of women who cosplay and who are ‘obviously’ fake geeks seeking to prey on the poor, defenceless fanboys.

    Seriously, to hell with these people… I want to take a frigging TORCH to fandom sometimes. >_<

  • Anonymous

    Boycotting a major release in the MCU is not something I personally have the professional ability to do,

    While I respect your choice to not do so personally, I do feel it’s within your professional purview to make that call, just as much as it was to accurately call his remarks out for what they were. You’re a member of the press, after all. Any word on how Marvel feels about Gunn’s idiocy?

  • Anonymous

    Several of these comments are not only tasteless, they’re plain creepy.

  • http://twitter.com/sarasakana Sara Sakana

    “Boycotting a major release in the MCU is not something I personally have the professional ability to do.”

    Um, yes it is something you personally have the “professional ability” to do. In fact, not only do you have the “professional ability” to boycott the work of someone who is blatantly hateful, you have a PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY to do so.

    Instead, you are CHOOSING to send the message that it’s okay for these guys to continue to be sexist, homophobic creeplords by continuing to promote their work. So how ’bout you at least have the vertebrae to be honest about it instead of making flimsy excuses about “professional ability?”

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    ಠ_ಠ

  • Cal

    Please make this more known around the internet! We do need to do something about this. All of those statements are just so insulting. I’m working in the comic industry. It’s tough but, unless we cry out. Nothing will change.

  • Krystal

    I had someone try to defend him as an ‘absurdist’ writer. That, to me, is just trying to shield him behind a label and it is disgusting and terrifying that people want him to get away with being a downright horrible human being.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    I hope Joss Whedon sees this. He’s a smart man – Hopefully he’ll make a smart move and critize the heck out of this disgusting display.

  • http://twitter.com/femmissgeek TheFeminineMissGeek

    I disagree. Ms. Polo is a journalist, and needs to report on things relevant to nerd culture, including movies from assholes. It’s her job to watch GoG and to report on it, regardless of her personal feelings about the director. That’s professionalism at work, and I admire it.

    Of course, I hope she gets comped the tickets, so she doesn’t need to spend any of TMS’s cash or her own on that jackass.

  • Anonymous

    I thought those comments couldn’t get worse, but wow…do we have a Bigot Bingo, or what? Christ! Yes, spread this around. This NEEDS to be spoken about.

  • Anonymous

    No word so far as I’m aware. I took a second look at my sentences concerning a possible boycott and realized that they didn’t really express what I wanted them to. (Hasty post writing for the win!) I’ve edited them to be more clear.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tash-Diehart/100003612584648 Tash Diehart

    Seriously? You guys are gonna make the GOTG suffer just cause the director’s a giant douchenozzle? Don’t get me wrong, James Gunn is stupid, and his comments are stupid, but boycotting the film ain’t gonna make him suffer, it’s gonna make the Guardians suffer, and instead of Marvel taking risks like they are with this film, they’re gonna believe “this film bombed, people don’t like different things, let’s make Iron Man 7″ if you don’t like James Gunn, that is fine and you’re right in not liking him, but don’t let the Guardians suffer for one mans douchebaggery.

  • Anonymous

    I took a second look at my sentences concerning a possible boycott and realized that they didn’t really express what I wanted them to. I’ve edited them to be more clear.

    As for whether I hope Gunn will be removed from the project after this? Yes. Hopefully this post helps draw attention to the reasons why.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658295430 Calum Syers

    I just watched James Gunn’s “Slither” last night (mainly for the Nathan Fillion factor, mind you) and was looking forward to his big budget debut. Now I feel a sinking feeling of regret that I wished that.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, I am really disappointed in James Gunn. I wouldn’t call myself a fan necessarily but up until now I’d always respected his earlier work like Slither and Super and he seemed fairly okay in interviews. The fact that it’s been taken down only serves to bum me out further.

  • Anonymous

    I think people have the tendency to say the most stupid things.No one is immune from stupidity. I would have serious concerns about Gunn being a bigot, a homophobe (or whatever label people are adding here) and helming a Marvel movie. I think people can draw any conclusion from the blog post all they want. I would be more concerned if it was a pattern with him instead of a single post.

  • Travis Fischer

    Playing devil’s advocate here, but I’m not sure I would treat this list as the definitive window into Gunn’s psyche that some are. After reading the whole thing I think it’s probably more likely he was simply going for the easy joke rather than expressing some deep seeded hatred of all woman kind.

  • TKS

    Marvel, buddy, listen. I know you have Joss and Hiddles. You don’t have to counter ballance that with this misogyny and homophobia. You don’t need to balance respect and assery.

    Just get more respectful people. Surround yourself with them and you’ll find that you will have gathered more fans.

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    I’m quite sure Albert Camus would have some choice words for that douche. “Absurdist” indeed.

  • http://twitter.com/digitaldraco Draco

    Many of the comments are indeed questionable if not clearly disappointing, but some leave out context. Gunn’s comments on Gambit for example are in the context of a three-way with Gambit and his wife, and he does go on to admit the character has “heat”.

    He also pokes fun at Emma Frost’s questionable costuming.

    Then there is this comment from the Jean Grey entry…

    <>

    Which I would hardly categorize as “homophobic”.

    I’m not saying he’s innocent, but let’s allow he’s not the devil?

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    Because a guy with this attitude towards female superheroes will do a bang-up job portraying them in film?

  • Anonymous

    Ehh, an off-color and offensive joke. Feel the same way about it as I do about Howard Stern – don’t listen to it if you don’t like it, but going after his livelihood is a garbage move. Nice world where the mob rules.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658295430 Calum Syers

    ^ Yeah, this.

  • Anonymous

    I would rather see him explain himself. I think it is a stretch to conclude that a single post sums up his views on women or homosexuality.

  • Anonymous

    The fact that Marvel thought it would be “more plausible” to depict a talking bloody raccoon than a vibrant Wakanda wasn’t helping things, either, let’s not forget.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    That fact worries me too. I’ve been a fan of his work since The Specials and I’m finding it hard to reconcile his work on that film and the Scooby Doo movies where Daphne actually gets to be more than a damsel in distress with anyone who would write a piece like that and mean every word of it.

  • jdhovland

    My only concern is that the post is 20 months old, could he have had an epiphany or change of heart since then? (Joss did endorse him.) If not, I agree, he should be removed from the project and/or boycotted as seen fit.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    That was my hope. He does some work for Spike TV, after all and he may have been pressured to write toward their frat-boy core audience.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tash-Diehart/100003612584648 Tash Diehart

    Gunn did a rewrite at the most, and i’m pretty sure Marvel ain’t gonna let him fuck up GOTG character wise, so your fears aren’t really that justified.

  • http://twitter.com/megancox Megan

    It must be hilarious to be in a position to be able to make fun of women and brush it off as an “off-colour and offensive joke.” Misogyny is hilarious!

  • http://profiles.google.com/kitfoxtrot Christopher LaHaise

    But a multitude of comments through an article would sum up his views quite nicely.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kitfoxtrot Christopher LaHaise

    I linked this article to him on FaceBook – whether or not he’ll see it, I don’t know, but if enough people show it there, he might.

  • Anonymous

    What Wakanda and BP fans need more than ever are more substantial comic runs. I hope someone gets hims a pitch like Brubaker and Fraction did with Danny Rnad.

    I think the GOTG script was greenlit in part because of the absurdity of Racoon and Groot and how they can play off that as humorous.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Well, if there is enough of a fuss now, well before the movie comes out/starts filming, then maybe the movie itself doesn’t have to suffer. The problem that people in ‘geek minorities’ have to deal with is the idea of ‘Do I support it cause it’s something I want or do I boycott because X,Y,or Z offends me so greatly.’ It’s like female character led comics. Do we support it if the main female character is horribly done and nothing more than the writers wet dream simply because we want more female leads? Or do we boycott it because it’s written terribly? Either way we lose. Either we get a terribly written character or no female lead at all.
    I hope that if enough people talk about this now the movie could get someone new and not have to suffer at the box office. Unlike things like comics it is possible here to make changes before it comes out and people decide with their money. Because if he stays on, I can’t in good conscience give money to a project with him on it both as a woman and someone who doesn’t identify as straight.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    He needs to be held accountable. End of story.

  • http://twitter.com/raquel9e Raquel Phillips

    If he’s not a homophobe or a misogynist then why is he telling homophobic and misogynistic jokes?

  • Anonymous

    Most of the comment seem to be from irate Tumblr users. Which Gunn comments do you think sum up his views ?

  • Katie Marinelli

    Look at the Flash quote, he insinuates that he was voted for by gay men so sex could be done with faster because even gay men don’t enjoy sex. It’s not so blatant ‘I hate gay people’ but all of his comments of that sort are homophobic. He could have gotten away with ‘Well my girlfriend thinks he’s attractive but that’s not my thing’.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    If he didn’t really stand behind these things, why the hell would he post them in public for all to see?

  • Anonymous

    And, see, that’s the thing: there is always an excuse. Either it “didn’t sell enough” or the non-POC concept is “absurd/funny enough” or “more iconic.” I call BS. Black Panther is one of the seminal characters in Marvel canon, sales be damned, and T’Challa or Shuri, and their creators, have more than enough of a claim to be in Phase 2. Raccoon and Groot are cute? Great, give them a cartoon. End of.

  • Anonymous

    Stretch that he views female superheroes solely as sex objects or with this attitude.

  • Katie Marinelli

    But isn’t it still questionable if he really thinks that’s funny? If he thinks degrading women is a good joke?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    What’s the difference between an easy, misogynistic joke and deep seeded hatred of all womankind? In reality, there’s not. There is exactly zero functional difference, I don’t care what his “intent” is (which isn’t clearly stated so why would you defend a hypothetical intent in any capacity?). These comments hurt, and they are indicative of a broader society that I have to SURVIVE in.

    But it’s cool that you are in a position that you don’t have to worry about it. Must be nice.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kitfoxtrot Christopher LaHaise

    Check the article above again: Re: Gambit, Nightwing, Stephanie Brown….

  • Anonymous

    The only person who can answer or explain himself is Gunn.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    Let me say right here at the start that I don’t know James Gunn but I have been a fan of his work for over ten years. As such, I think I’m qualified to say that this piece – while offensive if meant seriously – is not representative of the vast majority of his work, which has been geek-friendly and pro-feminist.

    * He wrote and directed the independent superhero movie The Specials, where a goodly portion of the titular superhero team were women – including one openly gay single-mother.

    * He wrote the live-action Scooby Doo movie, where Daphne (as played by Buffy herself – Sarah Michelle Gellar) becomes more than a damsel in distress.

    * If nothing else, I find it hard to believe that any man who was decrying Chris Brown, cheering on Jenny Johnson and chronicling the death threats being made against the latter by the fans of the former several days ago on his Twitter feed ( https://twitter.com/JamesGunn ) is a dyed-in-the-wool homophobic, sexist pig.

    I think it would behoove the writers of this piece to contact Gunn himself and ask him to explain his actions. I think his track record before this piece was published grants him that much good will.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    A statement of some sort from Marvel would be nice. I don’t think someone turns around magically when it comes to such abysmal behaviour, but who knows.

  • jdhovland

    I agree he needs to be held accountable, but what’s the tally? If he’s sorry he ever said those things, deletes the post, posts an apology and is genuinely contrite? What cost closes the tab? Not getting to direct GotG? Any movie ever again? I just want to know what would he have to do to rectify this? For my own curiosity. Thanks.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1558826233 Pj Perez

    What I’d like to know is how a filmmaker of notice enough to get a gig this prominent has enough time to write ludicrous blogs such as this one in the first place.

  • http://twitter.com/Heartbreak_News SocialMediaNerd

    I seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY believe this is satire. I mean, with the history of James Gunn’s type of humor – Slither was NOT clearly a horror parody; you had to be paying attention.

    Was the world ready for this type of satire? Probably not.

  • http://twitter.com/raquel9e Raquel Phillips

    If this is meant to be satire then it’s some of the worst-written satire in history.

  • detectivewhoconsults

    Just as I cannot definitively know if he was expressing genuine ‘deep seeded hatred of all woman kind,’ you can’t know for sure if he was ‘simply going for the easy joke.’ Point is, he posted it, and I now have valid concerns that he’s been handed the reigns to a huge Marvel Studios release. He will be in control of the portrayal of the female character(s) sure to be in GOTG, and – as with most big superhero movie releases of recent years – their portrayal is sure to have a big cultural impact.

    As for your playing devil’s advocate, I think Melissa McEwan over at Shakesville.com has put it best:

    “There are the occasions that men—intellectual men, clever men, engaged men—insist on playing devil’s advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading: Women’s Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, want to wrestle over details, want to argue just for fun—and they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps raising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes. Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that’s so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.”

  • Carmen Sandiego

    I loved Super and Slither. This knowledge is heartbreaking. I was so excited to see his take on Guardians. :(

  • http://twitter.com/raquel9e Raquel Phillips

    It’s hard for me to have good will toward a person who makes jokes about how lesbians just need to be fucked by a dude to be turned straight. “Corrective” rape is a real thing and it’s not something to be taken lightly.

  • Carmen Sandiego

    Bullshit. I’m very familiar with Gunn and he’s not exactly a company man.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tash-Diehart/100003612584648 Tash Diehart

    Cute? have you read GOTG? They are anything but cute, unless you consider a Raccoon with a BFG shooting aliens cute.

  • Anonymous

    “Raccoon and Groot are cute? Great, give them a cartoon. End of.”

    I think if you have got a script that the studio brass likes then go for a summer tentpole. That pattern for Marvel movies seems to indicate that summer movies have an added advantage with lighhearted elements thrown into the mix. That probably made Chapman’ script appealing even if the characters involved are C list at best.

  • Carmen Sandiego

    Hey, don’t hate on Rocket.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    Thank you! I hope for the best :)

  • Anonymous

    I was taking about the replies to the article.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    He made Scooby Doo? Alright, so this sex post automatically became reason #2, rather than #1 that they should take him off the movie.

  • Anonymous

    Aaaaand more derailing.

  • http://twitter.com/illusClaire Claire

    Well I sure won’t be trusting his filmmaking not to disgust me enough to give it my money. Shruuuuuug

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    Obviously he should be thrown in jail and given water and bread until he recognizes his new Amazonian overlords

    Why is it so important to you to quantify a punishment? Public shaming and calling out is a good start. How he chooses to address it and reform (if he does) is up to him, but everyone is going to have a personal reaction. I’ve never heard of him to be honest. I have no attachment to his work, so it’s likely I’ll avoid him in the future because I can, and my money matters. How other people choose to handle it is up to them. How he, and the studio, choose to handle it is up to them.

    Trying to make people quantify what’s “good enough” is a really ridiculous derailing tactic. Acknowledge that he’s fucked up, learn from his mistakes, and stop trying to argue useless details to wear out people who are actually already worn out already. We’re tired of this shit.

    This isn’t about Gunn. This is about a systematic structure of power that views women as expendable and anything less than Rambo-style machismo as just as worthless as women (in their view, which is obviously the worst thing to do.) What society does in response to this is much more important. Focus, please.

  • Carmen Sandiego

    It’s possible it was, but I’m not sure. I’d like to hear his response. He’s certainly used his humor in this way to reveal problematic things in the past, but it’s unclear if this is the case here.

  • jdhovland

    I’d appreciate a statement, or resolution, as well. As a person that has arguably been abysmal in his past, I hold out hope that people can change. Thank you for your input.

  • Carmen Sandiego

    I hope you’re right!

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Would a “penis-vagina thing” be like those weird sucky stalks in King Kong that ate that guy’s head in the spider cavern?

  • http://twitter.com/sara_smile Sara

    Seriously….what the hell is up with this guy. It saddens me that people still think and say such things in this day and age. All the more reason to get rid of this one and finally have a Deadpool on the big screen worth watching really.

  • Anonymous

    Successful satire kicks up, not down. Who was the target here?

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    He doesn’t speak for everyone. I will not be seeing another film by this bozo. I’m still surprised. There are other articles like this one on his blog…a very similar one that is about actresses. As in actual real human beings.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Then he should quit.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Hold on, there. I agree that the age of the post is concerning…why hasn’t this come up before? It only disappeared off of the Internet in the last 24 hours. I’m very curious to hear Joss Whedon’s position on his cohort.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    Do you have a link?

  • Anonymous

    What derailing ?

    I think there could be multitude of factors why BP hasn’t been green lit. And the biggest reason for Marvel’s hesitancy could be the fact the movie has to revolve around Wakanda and Africa.

    My point is that the absurdity of GOTG (and the scripting stage it was in) could be what led execs to fast track it.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    You guys are going to actually try and make a swashbuckling space adventure sound less interesting than a story about a Phantom rip-off bounding around in a unitard.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    The age of the post is concerning only in that it wasn’t kicked up and made a fuss about before. But that level of virulent, seeped hatred doesn’t disappear overnight. And if, by a miracle, it did, then we would need to hear it from his mouth and through his actions.

    It’s totally possible Whedon hadn’t heard of this! Most people, it seems, hadn’t. But if he catches wind and stays silent and doesn’t publicly condemn or call for an apology, then he’s failing at his self-proclaimed station as Best Feminist in the World.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    There are many other articles on his website of a similar questionable nature, especially this one: http://www.jamesgunn.com/2011/02/14/the-20-academy-award-winning-actresses-we-most-want-to-have-sex-with/ although it lacks context, just a series of pictures. Still, congratulations, uh, Anna Paquin, James Gunn wants to f*** you.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Sure: http://www.jamesgunn.com/2011/02/14/the-20-academy-award-winning-actresses-we-most-want-to-have-sex-with/ sadly it lacks the brilliant quotes of this other one. More too, I’m sure…

  • jdhovland

    Thank you for your response.

    I didn’t mean to derail the discussion, merely begin it, I’m sorry if that’s what I represented. I just want to learn as much as I can about the dynamics of the offensive and the offended, being too guilty of the former and not party enough to the latter.

    Thank you again for your insight and point of view.

  • http://twitter.com/digitaldraco Draco

    Don’t get me wrong, he says a LOT of things that rub me the wrong way (the majority of the post does). I guess I’m saying let’s hold off on the lynching and hope he offers a good response to the criticism. I’d rather see that than Marvel just fire him outright, as that would show some growth and insight on his part.

  • Watchtower

    I think the words “slut-shaming” have been thrown around a lot recently, and while they certainly have their place, they are not always used in accurate form. And that’s what this whole article looks like to me. Gunn’s comments are MOST certainly ignorant, ani-gay and sexist but the author of this article seems to have slapped it together out of anger, which is no way to accurately give information on a site like The Mary Sue. I really wish this article had been written by someone who had calmed down for five seconds and thought through what they were writing. As a woman, I want to agree with the points, but it is hard when they are so poorly constructed. :/

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    And this one. http://www.jamesgunn.com/2010/03/24/the-celebrities-youd-most-like-to-have-sex-with/ I guess it’s a regular poll he does. If you look through his articles, they’re mostly prepubescent boy humor.

  • Anonymous

    Because when I point out the euphemisms frequently used to justify not investing in POC-driven properties, you threw up a few more. And the fact that Marvel is “hesitant” to set a movie in Africa speaks to something a bit uglier than wanting the more “absurdist” — funny how that’s now a panacea — script. Bottom line, Marvel had every opportunity to make a Panther film happen. And, hell, if the character shows up in Avengers 2 I’ll still be okay. But spare me the usual corporate malarkey, please.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Agreed. …does he actually call himself that? He doesn’t, does he? That’s stupid.

  • Anonymous

    Was he also cheering on her making an anti-immigrant joke against Los Lobos? Just checking.

  • http://twitter.com/Heartbreak_News SocialMediaNerd

    I think the target was supposed to be the male gaze of comics. But yeah, I really don’t think it’s SUCCESSFUL satire by any means.

  • http://twitter.com/Heartbreak_News SocialMediaNerd

    I really don’t think anyone would say something like “teen moms are easy” in a public forum with their professional name attached in seriousness. That’s just too absurd.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    Well, no! He does consider himself a feminist (which I am dubious on because when you actually analyze his work… it can come up short, both on women’s issues and on intersecting issues of race, sexuality, class, etc), and he tends to talk a lot about how awesome he is at being feminist, which tends to shoot up red flags. Show, don’t say, basically.

  • Katie Marinelli

    I’m not very well informed about how movie making works, but this makes me question his ability to deal with female characters. His post about Batwoman sickens me but it makes me wonder. How much say did/does he have on which characters were going to be in the movie? Did he support getting rid of the lesbian couple because he didn’t want to have to deal with female characters he couldn’t use as sexual arm candy for the male characters? I’m not going to lynch him, I just don’t know if I can trust any movie he makes that has female characters.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Just because he writes specific types of characters doesn’t mean he respects them.

  • Anonymous

    I have only given justifications or reasons, as an outsider, of why I think GOTG got the nod. The talking racoon and a tree with limited vocabulary probably helped it get greenlit.

  • http://twitter.com/perrydotto Antonia

    Thank you for the links! I can’t exactly say that they are a pleasure to read, but it (sadly so) at least undermines what this article showed – This man puts his foot in his mouth and has less emotional maturity that most children I spend time with. Shame.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    I agree, though…hm. Have you ever seen Kevin Smith’s Q&A videos? Something similar comes up about Smith’s treatment of homosexuality in films. The jist is that while he doesn’t always hit a bullseye, he generally tries to do more good than harm, and has probably done more good than others that make similar films. I would say the same is true of Whedon. Not every single depiction of women is a bullseye and some are downright harmful, but I think he did more good than bad…with Buffy, I mean. Dollhouse, I’m on the fence with. Haven’t seen it all, don’t want to comment until I do.

  • Katie Marinelli

    I’m not sure what exactly you’re trying to say.I find that his commentary is most definitely slut shaming. He ‘calls out’ characters like Black Widow for ‘fuck[ing] half the men in the Marvel Universe’ and says that Stephanie Brown must be easy since she’s a teen mom. While I’ll readily admit I’m probably writing a bit from my emotions, Polo seems to offer more facts about what Gunn wrote than opinions. (I agree sometimes terms can get thrown around too much but in this particular case I think that all the ones that have been thrown out there have supporting evidence from Gunn’s article)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    …When you’re calling a teen mom an easy target for sex, that is, in fact, slut-shaming.

    And when your main argument is tonal, i.e. “i would’ve liked this more but it was too hastily put together. just calm down!” you’re actually hurting the cause. Maybe she put it together out of anger because she is angry. I know I am! But if the way that something is “put together”, or if a word or two is misspelled… if these things are more important to you than the point of the article, then that’s a problem, and you need to rethink what your priorities are.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Yeah. I wanted to familiarize myself with a broader range of his written material, so I’ve been rolling through the articles…I came across one involving hypnotism that was downright racist. I’m ready to call the game. This guy’s a d-bag.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Rachelle1980 Rachelle Ross-Edwards

    Completely tasteless, creepy in every sense. Quite surprised he is not quoting a nickname for his manhood! You could make a drinking game out of how many times he says penis.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    Yeah, so, thanks for trying to delegitimize/silence the people who are upset about this by talking about how tumblr is just ~judgmental or crazy~. Why is his voice (which is clearly illustrated in this article! Again, there is zero functional difference between misogynistic jokes and misogynistic behavior, especially when the intent ISN’T CLEAR) more important than the voices of the people who are hurt? Why is being called a homophobic misogynist WORSE than, you know, being told from day one you’re worthless, or that you can be “corrected” by a big strong man’s penis, or that because you don’t express invented gender roles you’re useless? Why is his final word more important than every single voice that’s discussing the issue?

    Is it ’cause he’s a straight white guy? ‘Cause it seems like that’s why.

  • Anonymous

    Hm, this noose is so pretty, I think I’ll stick my neck into it…

    I’m one of those folks who believes that absolutely everything is acceptable fodder for comedy, and while any one subject may not sit well with the proverbial “you”, well, “the right not to be offended” is not accorded by the Constitution.

    I read the whole piece. It’s a run of the mill irreverent post with course humor about broads and chicks and the like. And like in most cases, a person willing to read without blood in their eye can tell the context, intent, and tone of such a piece. It’s usually easy to tell when something is intended to be kidding, or a contrite manifesto on how one sees the world. This is the latter. It may be intended to be a satirical look at these types of columns (the old “Joke ‘em if the can’t take a f*ck” trick), or just a run of the mill “Pretend people I want to bang” piece. Either way, I don’t think it matters.

    One of the tentpoles of comedy is exaggeration. The more blatantly over the top sexist (and homophobic, if you insist) you make a joke, the more outrageous it is, the more safe it is to laugh it is, as it’s distanced from reality. Carroll O’Connor as not a racist, Tim Allen was not all thumbs with power tools and, I’ll guess, Mr. Gunn is not a cro-magnon with a middle-ages opinion of women and homosexuals.

    It’s interesting that the writer understands and accepts the context for the sexy talk about the folks in the piece, but her line is when it comes to the comments about homosexuality. For others, the whole article would be seen as offensive. And for some (raises hand), it’s all fair play, even if it may not be all that funny (as in “didn’t make me laugh” as opposed to “must never be spoken about without exacting respect”) to them. It’s hard to decide where that line is, as there will always be someone wanting to push it further than you want.

    I have never sided with any facet of “that shouldn’t be said”. And I’ve never held with the idea that someone can lose their job over something they’ve said, especially in a case like this where it’s a) clearly humor and b) years old. One is ever within one’s rights to not like a joke, or even to be offended by something. One can complain about it. But to expect or demand a person lost their livelihood because of something they said, especially in the context of a comedic piece, rankles and chafes.

    I am not anti-gay, I am not sexist, but I love a well-crafted joke on either, or any subject. I suspect I will not love all the responses to this comment.

  • http://twitter.com/Oni_Queen Joyce

    Is there a petition out yet to get this guy off the film yet? I originally wasn’t planning to see GotG, it really depended on what would attract me to it. But this guy does not attract me to it, it rather repels me from it.

  • Anonymous

    Well, as others have pointed out his past work with female characters has actually not been that bad at all. Looking at a character like Bolty from Super, arm candy is the exact last thing you’d ever think. A deeply, deeply flawed character that is almost completely unlike any other I can think of.

    Which at least to me makes it a little bit difficult to judge his abilty as a director/writer on these comments. It’s not like when Frank Miller says something stupid and look back on his previous work and go ‘Oh yeah, you’re the guy whose only female characters are prostitutes…right.’

  • Anonymous

    The difference between your All in the Family/Home Improvement comparison, is who is the butt of the joke.

    In the cases you bring up, the people with privilege are the ones who are the butt of the joke. In this case, it’s people who are already marginalized that are the butt of the joke.

    Not Cool!

  • Anonymous

    Seriously what culture do you live in? People say things like that all the time, with NO CONSEQUENCES!!

  • Anonymous

    IMO, Dollhouse is his most feminist work yet.

  • Katie Marinelli

    But finding a joke about degrading women or that’s anti gay funny IS sexism and homophobic, it might not be the worst sexism or homophobia but it is. Because the truth of those types of jokes are that they are making the issues women, POC, nonheterosexual, etc people look less important. Makes it seem like the topic doesn’t need to be discussed because ‘oh if we’re at the point we can joke about it, it must not a problem anymore.’
    Also about Gunn losing his job over this, I think that if it happens it’s perfectly okay. Why? Because you don’t go to a restaurant that makes your favorite dish in a way you don’t like. Gunn is paid to write/direct things that people want to see, and if he can’t do that then I don’t see why its bad that he gets fired. If too many people stop going to a restaurant because people don’t like their food, they’re either going to A. close down, B. try a new menu or C fire the chef and get a new one.Now I doubt Marvel is going to completely shut down GotG, maybe they’ll try to add more female characters in to say ‘HEY LOOK female superheroes stop being mad’ or maybe they’ll hire someone new. Worst comes to worse they do nothing and lose a lot of potential money.
    I don’t get this idea that it would be wrong for him to lose his job over what he said. If he said some of these things to a female or gay actor/ress I’m sure they could slap a harassment suit on him easily. In this day and age people want to say whatever they want without taking responsibility for it. I think he needs to take responsibility.

  • Anonymous

    Yeah I am clearly blanketing anyone who has an issue with his post or the entirety of tumblr as crazy.

    A person can dissect the post as misogynistic but to conclude that the post is the sum total of Gunn’s views on homosexuality or women is stupid.

  • http://twitter.com/asleeplessroad ampersand

    Don’t discount his work with the charity Equality Now.

  • Katie Marinelli
  • Katie Marinelli

    To anyone that is curious to whether there is any sort of petition on this, there apparently is

    http://www.change.org/petitions/marvel-studios-remove-james-gunn-from-guardians-of-the-galaxy-movie#

    Petition asking for James Gunn to be removed from GotG. This is for anyone that wants to sign.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    Well, aren’t you?

    And he’s not giving us much else to work with. It doesn’t have to be the sum total to be harmful. You don’t have to go around punching every person in the face for one person to be punched, and for that to hurt. To say BUT LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE HE DIDN’T PUNCH doesn’t take away that assault that occurred. Everyone makes mistakes, but this isn’t a mistake. It’s calculated, thought out, published… Based on this evidence? Yeah, I’m gonna call it as I see it. It’s his own responsibility to convince me otherwise, not my responsibility to give him any benefit of the doubt.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Glad to hear it. :) I picked up both seasons for a song this weekend, so I’ll be diving in sometime soon…as soon as I watch 700 episodes of Doctor Who.

  • Nimravid

    In a best case scenario, only some of his views are homophobic and misogynistic. We don’t need to know anything outside of what he put in print to know he has homophobic and misogynistic views. People are upset about what he already said, not about “the sum total of Gunn’s views.”

  • Nimravid

    Is this a joke? It’s not very well crafted.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    …actually, after years of seeing people win Hawaiian vacations or at least a pat on the back for quitting heroine, seeing counselling for alcoholism, and so on, I think you CAN get credit for not punching all those other people.

    You just shouldn’t.

  • Travis Fischer

    I don’t know. Ask any comedian ever.

  • Travis Fischer

    Well first I’d note that nobody, including Gunn, gets through that list without being degraded, but yeah, if there’s anything questionable it’s that the list just isn’t that funny.

    That said, I’m not going to base my entire opinion of the guy on a single piece of satire.

  • captaincanada

    I read the comment – what was the big deal? Tony could easily turn a lesbian.

  • captaincanada

    What’s wrong with jokes? Note everything is serious. I’ve seen a lesbian comedian make the same statements and it’s okay.

  • Anonymous

    I thought the root of all humor was in surprise and subverting your expectations?

    Relying on stereotypes and cliches, especially ones directed at minorities is exactly the opposite of a surprise, it’s just regurgitating the abuse that many people have dealt with for their whole lives. From personal experience, I know that if anyone makes a passing joke about bisexuality for example, guess what? Chances are I’ve already heard it from people who weren’t joking. Not gonna find it funny.

  • Anonymous

    I’d do it first, IMO. It goes so fast, you’ll be done before you know and those 700 episodes of Dr Who will still be there when you get done. 8^D

  • Nimravid

    Ah, we have a “pointing out misogyny is just like race-based murder.”

    You guys, it’s irrational and hurtful to respond to explicit misogyny/homophobia that are published for the world to see. Criticizing him and not wanting someone with those views to be in charge of an artistic project is murder. Plus, it’s pretty likely we’re wrong about how we’re interpreting his clear message. Stop killing James Gunn! What did he do to deserve criticism, other than print something misogynistic and homophobic? Nothing!

    Hey. Printing something misogynistic and homophobic should be enough to get him fired. We’re not killing him.

  • oohshiny77

    There are several issues with your defense of his statements.

    First, when writing for a production company such as in the case of “The Specials”, or shopping a script to a producer, if you want your story produced any personal opinions that may be offensive aren’t included in your stories; Not if you’re hoping they sell. Plus the openly gay single mother character? This movie (2000) was post-Ellen and in the midst of the Will & Grace (1998–2006) eras where gay characters in the media were finally being approached with the openness (honesty, sensitivity, realism?) they deserved and gay characters were finally being included in manistream productions.

    Second, his live action isn’t where Daphne becomes more then a damsel in distress, that was taken care of in the evolution of the related cartoons prior to his story. Plus, Sarah Michelle Gellar was in the midst of playing Buffy in BTVS, her core audience expected her character to kick butt.

    Third, his defence of Jenny Johnson vs. Chris Brown doesn’t negate him from being a homophobic sexist pig, only that he supported her stance verses Brown’s stance, possibly because he doesn’t agree with Brown’s history of violence, possibly because he doesn’t like Brown’s haircut, and just possibly because he’s trying to correct his image in the wake of being tied to one of the biggest production companies in the world. You decide.

  • Travis Fischer

    Dismissing somebody’s point of view because of their gender. How progressive of you.

    So what’s your response to the women in this thread saying the same thing?

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Ahhh…the calming two cents of Bob Chipman.

  • Anonymous

    No, I am not.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    You honestly could have fooled me. It might be worth looking over what you have to figure out why that might be. I’d start here:

    “EDIT: But this is the internet and tumblr of all places can never be quick to be judgmental or crazy.”

  • detectivewhoconsults

    I didn’t dismiss your point of view. I addressed your points in my first paragraph, quoting them directly and then responding with my own views.

    I have not called anyone else out in the discussion, even if their views are very different to mine, because they have every right to express them. I have called YOU out, however, because you declared that you just wanted to play ‘devil’s advocate’. Just so we’re clear, the definition of ‘devil’s advocate’ is “someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument.” My point by quoting Ms McEwan was that, although you might feel like playing devil’s advocate, I am all too fully aware of the real-life consequences sexism has in our society. To me this is not a game.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t see how I am casting a blanket over the whole internet or tumblr.

  • Anonymous

    You can characterize the post however you want. I would rather judge a person by his complete work history.

  • http://twitter.com/ChannelDiza Chanel Diaz

    And the geek boys will ask, “what’s the problem?” And say, “It’s not a big deal. Pussy/Bitch.”

    This seems to root the sexism that even makes it into the show, ‘The Avengers; Earth’s Mightiest Heroes.’

    In the Episode, “Some Assembly Required,” after Hulk is rude to Pepper Pots in his defensive-aggresive nature-like ways.

    Thor (The most gentlemeny of the males, I guess): Would be wise to treat the lady (Pepper Pots) with respect.

    Hulk (The Male Power Fantasy on Steroids): Which lady did you mean, blondie?

    I’m sure that scenario was used to normify using female-kind as an insult (because we’re just the symbol of ‘bad’-everything) , rather than Hulk just talking about the only OTHER female character in that group, Wasp.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-A-Quest/100000875744905 Jason A. Quest

    I’ve done parody, and more than a few people have mistaken it for sincere. IMHO if you don’t have people believing you mean it for at least a little bit, you’re doing it wrong. But the people who couldn’t tell either a) didn’t read very far, or b) weren’t very bright.

  • http://twitter.com/BrianBuckler Brian Buckler

    Just got done reading Twitter’s #1ReasonWhy, now this depressing shit?

  • Anonymous

    “But finding a joke about degrading women or that’s anti gay funny IS sexism and homophobic”

    I politely disagree. The writer of this piece saw no issue with the majority of the column, or at least accepted the idea that it could be funny. Is she sexist

    “Gunn is paid to write/direct things that people want to see, and if he can’t do that then I don’t see why its bad that he gets fired”

    How does an article about superheroes he’d like to boff reduce his ability to show Rocket Raccoon on screen?

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    First of all, I am not defending Gunn’s statements. I am merely suggesting that the argument some have made that the original article was meant to be satirical might bear consideration. If it is satire, it is poor satire but satire nonetheless.

    Re: The Specials. While positive gay characters were starting to slip into the mainstream at the time, they were still relatively unknown in superhero-based media. This was several years before Batwoman and Rene Montoya I don’t know if you’ve seen The Specials but the character in question, Power Chick, is easily the most positive and probably the most admirable of the movie’s protagonists. Incidentally, while the movie was released in 2000, it was actually shot in 1998 – just one year after Ellen outed herself. The release was delayed due to buzz over the higher-budget Mystery Men, which it would have competed against, which is unfortunate since most critics agree The Specials is the far better film.

    Re: Scooby Doo – I’ll admit to not having watched Scooby Doo religiously since childhood (the mid-1980s for me) so I’m willing to concede that Daphne’s portrayal may have improved in the comics and cartoons between then and now. I have seen some of the newer Scooby Doo cartoons and am glad to note that both Velma and Daphne are presented quite well. The live-action Scooby Doo movie may not have been the first place a more feminist-friendly Daphne appeared but it was the first place I saw one. Perhaps you’re right and Gunn was forced to put those notes into his script but we have no way of knowing for sure. Given his works that he wrote outside of the studio system, I prefer to be hopeful.

    Re: Jenny Johnson vs. Chris Brown – presuming that someone has ulterior motives does a disservice to a person and is purely speculative unless you give them a chance to explain themselves. Your suggestion that Gunn may be trying to correct his image now that he’s been tied to a big family-friendly production company might have some merit if Gunn hadn’t been tied to Warner Brothers and Fox at various times over the past decade and his image before today weren’t primarily that of a geek-done-good.

    Again, I am not defending Gunn’s piece. I am merely suggesting that a rush to condemn the man without allowing the man a chance to defend or disavow his previous comments makes hypocrites of us all.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    No, it isn’t and I agree that that the piece, if satire, crossed the line of good taste. Maybe I’m overly-sympathetic, having had some of my own satirical writing taken seriously when I thought there was no way anyone could not see the joke. I still think someone should contact Mr. Gunn and ask him for a comment.

  • Desi Monida

    I really do think he was trying to write in the character voice of neckbeards, but because there are so many neckbeards on the internet, well. Yeah, like, sorry dude, the joke got really, really lost because it’s the internet and the internet is full with dudes that sound just like that with absolutely no sense of awareness or irony.

    Neckbeards: so awful, they’re impossible to parody. Dems the breaks, guys.

  • Life Lessons

    Oh good grief. What an idiot.

  • Anonymous

    I said “One of the tentpoles”, not the only, or the root. I was discussing exaggeration, particularly in the delivery, yet you choose to discuss stereotype.

    I have no problem with you not liking any joke, comedian or whatever, and I am not trying to change your opinion. But you must realize that your opinion does not change mine, or that guy’s, or the fellow in the corner with the raincoat.

  • Anonymous

    It’s not a joke, but I tried to craft it well. Alas, when discussing a hot-button issue like this, emotions run so high it borders on impossible to have a dispassionate discussion about the topic. I fear that any further responses I receive will tread further down the road of personal commentary, and less about the points of the discussion.
    I am ever amazed that both wings of the socio political bird are willing and happy to constrain the freedom of speech, for wildly varying reasons.

  • Anonymous

    Welp, definitely pirating that movie.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    Okay, honest question, I swear: If you believe this is satire, what do you believe he is satirizing? If you believe it’s a joke/humor, what’s the punchline?

    Maybe you don’t think it’s funny, but if you believe it’s either of these things, you must have an idea of what he was going for, and I’m curious, because I’m having a difficult time conceptualizing cogent answers for either.

  • http://twitter.com/bethanyrdean Bethany Dean

    @JamieJeans “This may be one person, but James Gunn is part of what’s wrong with geek culture in general, which still often acts in a very hostile manner to ANYONE they see as not belonging, be it LGBT people, white women, and people of colour.”

    In my experience, geek culture has never been like that. The most geek culture I’ve come into contact with actually embraces anyone different as one of their own, and they’re a fiercely loyal and lovely bunch.

    This article from Gunn however, is a piece of shit. I will have moral quandaries boycotting the movie if he stays in it, but I will if it sends the message to Marvel.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    Yeah. Or The Specials, where half the members of the titular team are women and all of them are presented as capable heroes.

  • http://twitter.com/dogunderwater KO

    No.

  • http://twitter.com/ChannelDiza Chanel Diaz

    The Avenger’s Earth’s Mightiest Heroes:

    In the Episode, “Some Assembly Required,”after Hulk acts rude towards Pepper Pots because of his defensive-agressive attitude.

    Thor (The most gentlemanly of the males, I guess): Would be wise to treat the lady with respect.

    Hulk (The Ultimate Male Power Fantasy on Steroids): Which, lady, did you mean blondie?

    To think when the geek boys (Real Men Aren’t Sexist) try not to make a big deal of sexism, when it spreads like crazy everywhere and deny responsibility of the connection between casual sexism and sexism out in the open when real-live women get raped. And when said women and the men who get constantly insulted for being gay or “too womanly” hang themselves from the lack of community support.

    I was sure (more now than ever) the episode was normifying the idea that female-kind are insults to begin with because women are bad-everything, while fortifying what is “proper” male and female behavior (which is sexist both ways, but more towards women who are considered inferior by default, while men have to work it there.).

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    For what it’s worth, I wrote him a sex-fic in response to what he had to say about Gambit. You can read it here: http://www.facebook.com/jamesgunnfans?fref=ts
    Just look for my name.

  • Nimravid

    Maybe it is a joke though- Isn’t it funny that people going “freedom of speech! Freedom of speech!” think the first amendment goes:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. *EXCEPT in the case that private citizens are criticizing a misogynistic, racist, or homophobic statement; then Congress shall make a law that says no private citizens can criticize that person.

  • Anonymous

    this is hilarious. I don’t like it, so I will steal it.

  • Hannah Wilson

    He is probably under some contractual limits about how much criticism he can level against someone else working on the Marvel series of movies. Still, I do hope for a response, even if it can not be directed pointedly at Gunn.

  • http://twitter.com/JayKingOfGay Jay, King of Gay

    the follow up article by Heidi MacDonald was good. I have a feeling we might have a Poe’s Law example here. Where Parody of extremism can be hard to distinguish from actual extremism.

  • http://twitter.com/JayKingOfGay Jay, King of Gay

    the one about spider-woman is what makes me question whether this is satire or not. Spider-Woman, like many characters, is as “ugly” or “attractive” as whoever is drawing her. I could see someone making that kind of comment about The Thing, he’s got the texture of rocks. Or perhaps Deadpool, who is explicitly written as a man who’s entire body is covered in cancer-riddled cells. But a female character who hasn’t been given a character description that identifies any sort of unique facial characteristics just seems absurd.

  • vulcanarchy

    Just bumping in to point out that while Jenny’s remarks were unwarranted in that tweet, and I’ve seen several others she’s made that are questionable, that does NOT validate threats of physical violence from a man already well-known to commit acts of violence against women. You’re walking a very thin line of victim-blaming with the implications of your comment. Frankly, all three of them — CB, JJ, JG — are disgusting additions to humanity, in my opinion, but violence against women isn’t funny and it isn’t defensible.

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    I think it would be the monster from alien.

  • http://twitter.com/ChannelDiza Chanel Diaz

    I agree with everything except I’m sure the colored women are even worse off, except for the colored female gay, bisexual, or transgenders.

    It’s a Patriarchal White Supremacist world.

  • vulcanarchy

    Maverick, I don’t think you’re having the same conversation that everyone else is having…

  • Anonymous

    Tony could do it.

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    It is a very different thing, making jokes about a group of which you are a part, and making jokes about a group over which you have considerable social power.

  • oohshiny77

    All good points. I think the issue most of us (or at least I am having) is having lies in the attempt to make the post disappear instead of, as you said, defending or disavowing his statements.

  • Anonymous

    Is it really a slow news day when the staff here has to comb through things that are 2 years old just to get some kind of attention?
    The piece is obviously done tongue in cheek and meant to get a laugh. Not everyone has the same sense of humor.
    The fact that people here are rallying to get this guy to lose his job is really an act of bullying in my eyes.
    I happen to like this site because they have things that interest me, but lately it seems as if it is becoming more of a tabloid site that is just drumming up trouble.
    I just want the impossible dream of everyone on the internet getting along, but as long as people keep attacking, ganging up and bullying like this it will not happen.

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    Also the internet =/=. Freedom of speech as described in the first amendment is relative.

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    I think also given that he hasn’t said anything about this yet, it’s not really useful to discuss ‘what ifs’. One thing at a time an all that.

  • Varya

    I do think, and hope, that this isn’t representative of how James Gunn really is. When you look at statements he has done in the past, he comes out as very anti-sexism/racism/homophobia. And while I surely understand that one could say anything to seem ok and then have totally different opinions in real life, it seems like he wouldn’t be stupid enough to post them in a blog post. I think this was satire that fell to close to the reality of how many people actually talk today.
    But when you look at the game Lollipop Chainsaw, it kind of makes a bit more sense. The game seems blatantly sexist from the surface, with the oversexualisation of Juliet, but then the game flips the coin by having her kill men who objectify her (when the zombies treat her literally like a piece of meat, she chops them in half) Still the game got a lot of criticism for being sexist.
    This is why I really hope he gets to stay on to do GotG because I not only think he isn’t sexist, he is one of few male directors with a true anti-sexist agenda and it would be a shame if he got discredited for a failed attempt at satire

  • http://melancholywise.tumblr.com/ Sophie

    I’ve heard that too. I really need to watch that.

  • Anonymous

    Really ? Go ahead enlighten me regarding the ongoing conversation

  • vulcanarchy

    Christopher LaHaise said: “But a multitude of comments through an article would sum up his views quite nicely.” which is clearly in reference to Gunn’s comments within his article. Instead of responding to this, you, for some reason, are going on about Tumblr and the public response to the article as though that’s the same thing. Hence, you’re not having the same conversation everyone else is having. They’re discussing the nature of Gunn’s remarks and their negative impact, you’re trundling on about Tumblr and apparently attempting to marginalize the views of quite a lot of people merely because you believe they’ve originated from Tumblr — that in itself is just weird. Several of your responses have come off as being completely unrelated to what people are actually saying to you. So, it stands to reason that you’re having your own conversation that’s relatively separate from what everyone else has been discussing. I’m not criticizing you for it, I’m pointing it out because I don’t think you’re aware you’re doing it.

  • Elin Dalstål

    Superheros can’t be gay! (A music video singing about this issue in comics)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTKSgf4NX_4

  • Anonymous

    Yes, I realized what comments Christopher was talking about after rereading his initial comment. I thought he was talking about the responses in the link. The conversation with Ms. Seals was regarding how I feel that certain voices on the internet are quick to draw conclusions

  • vulcanarchy

    Just making sure, as an observer it’s frustrating to watch and wonder if someone knows they’ve veered off-topic. I will say, regarding the Tumblr/internet thing, you really are drawing blanket generalizations on people by implying that merely because they might have learned of this situation via Tumblr, or any other means via the internet, that their opinions are invalid because you assume they’re “crazy” (seriously, what are you trying to imply with that one? Because I don’t follow — in what way is expressing opinion grounds to determine someone’s mental well-being?) or that they must have only been jumping to conclusions. I don’t see that happening here or anywhere else, I see people having intelligent discourse over these events and revelations, and there’s no one here who deserves to have their voice quashed because they might have originated from a corner of the web that you frown upon. It’s just weird, man.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    What’s the punchline though? Why would it be funny?

  • tbok1992

    Goddammit. First Spoony and now James Gunn?! Why do so many of the creative types I respect turn out to be sexist dick-butts?

  • Anonymous

    I wasn’t drawing a blanket generalization over the entirety of tumblr. But tumblr does have the tendency to oversimplify issues and be quick to jump to conclusions while re blogging stuff.

    My initial reply in this discussion is pretty much clear on how I view the whole issue.

  • vulcanarchy

    See, there you’re doing it again. You’re casting a wide net of judgement over a group of people based on the website they might be posting to. That’s ridiculous and it doesn’t make any sense. I didn’t find out about this on Tumblr, but I have a Tumblr account that I frequently use and post my opinions on, so does that invalidate my opinion and qualify me as “crazy” too or do I get to be in the special group you’ve designated in your mind that doesn’t belong to, you know, the blanket generalization you’re applying to a group of otherwise unrelated people? I’m just saying it’s absurd and the edit to include it was absolutely unnecessary. I think maybe you don’t INTEND to do it, but I also don’t think you’re ignorant to the fact that you ARE doing it. The net doesn’t have to be wide enough to encompass all of Tumblr, you’re still casting aspersions on a group of people rather needlessly and calling out their opinions as somehow less important or valid than yours. So, you know, knock it off, man.

  • Anonymous

    Some people on tumblr have the tendency to oversimplify stuff and jump to conclusions. Clear now ? I feel this issue might be one.

    You pretend like I consider any sort of criticism from tumblr as invalid, when that is not the case.

  • http://www.facebook.com/terrell.rice Terrell Rice

    i knew this was men hating site. It was a fucking joke taken out of context for it be used to prove how much guys are jerks. Get a life.

  • DarthDave

    I believe he’s satirising the rage, bigotry and misogyny of hardline fanboyism, isn’t he? Seemed pretty clear to me that he was joking.

  • vulcanarchy

    It’s a commentary that still does not apply to this discussion in any way and has no place here. I’m not pretending anything, you made the broad statements yourself, they’re right there, and you did not offer specifics until you were called out on it by more than just me. You can backpedal all you want and try to validate it in some weird effort to force your statements to stand up to criticism, but that won’t change that you did it and continue to do it or that it’s completely ignorant and wrong. Apparently you don’t know how to acknowledge when you’ve said something wrong — you know, that is essentially nowhere near what you’re trying to now claim you intended to express. Oh well. I can see that you’re a brick wall in general. Have fun with that, I’m out.

  • captaincanada

    Who has social powers? The lesbians who wouldn’t get turned by Tony Stark?

  • captaincanada

    He is IRON MAN! How could he not?

  • http://twitter.com/mteague MATTHEW T MILLER

    You do realize this article is a joke, right? As in: it’s not actually serious. Meaning: he is trying to be funny. It’s a thing. I think they call it irony. Worth checking out!

  • http://twitter.com/mteague MATTHEW T MILLER

    Yeah, my read too. Wasn’t serious at all. If you read ANYTHING he has written it’s in that same dickish voice.

  • Anonymous

    My guess would be he’s satirizing the overgrown manchildren who talk/think like this.

    I don’t find it particularly funny, but it doesn’t read like it was meant to be taken seriously.

  • Anonymous

    That’s James Gunn’s schtick, saying over the top ridiculous things. I mean the guy comes from the Troma school of filmmaking…which is over the top ridiculous things for shock value.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    That is the most damning thing and the part that bothers me the most. If it was satire, he should defend it as such. It probably won’t change anyone’s mind but it would at least offer some explanation.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=39603889 Lauren Seals

    What’s the functional difference between saying you’re joking and being serious though? the people who DO believe that lesbians can be dicked out of being gay aren’t going to read this and seriously reconsider their positions on the matter. They’re going to see it as solidarity, and normalized opinion.

    Even if it’s satire (which I still seriously doubt), it needs to be treated seriously.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    That’s a fair point. Although given most of the characters in Super, I should hope he doesn’t respect all of them!

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    That’s a fair point and I completely forgot he was the mind behind Lollipop Chainsaw!

  • Anonymous

    You ladies really have too much time on your hands. This is a non-issue that you’re making a larger issue of. Just don’t see the movie. That simple.

  • Vallon

    For christ sake, it’s dark humor/satire. The guy’s actually quite liberal and progressive in real life. Marvel’s not gonna fire him or accept your stupid boycott.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    There’s a lot of men taking issue with the statements too. Don’t presume.

  • Katie Marinelli

    On the first point no Polo isn’t sexist/homophobic because she isn’t agreeing with Gunn. SHe is saying that there were plenty of ways he could have done this article/points at which he could have stopped and most people wouldn’t have thought more of it than any other article. Gunn went way, way, WAY over the line.

    Secondly, because people don’t see things just for well written stories. People go for certain actors, genres, or certain TYPES of characters. He could write Rocket Raccoon amazingly but have every female character horribly portrayed and some people wouldn’t go no matter how much they loved RR.

    Here’s another example: Mel Gibson. He used to be a much beloved star and acting talent, now everyone hates him and his career is in the trash because of how he treated his girlfriend and the Jewish community. People say he still acts well but no one wants to watch his movies anymore because of what he did/said in his private life. So yes what Gunn says publicly does effect if people want to see his movies.

  • http://twitter.com/Kartos Heather

    Ew, no. The entire write up is so disgusting I couldn’t even get more than 10 into it before I wanted to throw up and take an ice cold shower. That ceases to be humor. It’s actually making my skin crawl because it makes me remember the time I was sexually harassed at a job.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    The $64,000 question. If it was satire, then why did he pull it off his site the minute people started complaining about it?

  • Anonymous

    I think the two of them have been buddies for a long time. Whedon even name checked Gunn in that post after The Avengers made all the money.

  • http://twitter.com/Kartos Heather

    Women are objectified in all aspects of our culture, and it’s a serious problem. He is adding to it, and it’s plain disgusting the shit he said in there. That is a problem and the man has no professional credibility now.

  • oohshiny77

    Agreed!

  • Anonymous

    Those “men” who are taking issue with the comment, are those who are just trying to be on the side of the women in order to bed them.

    This is one of the many issues with Feminsim this year where logic and reason go right out of the fucking window. It’s not like Gunn was like “I’d hold down Batgirl and fuck here square in the pooper”. There was no indication of rape, or “rape culture” (another buzz word)…its just some guy being humorous But then again when do Feminists ever have a sense of humor?

  • http://twitter.com/Kartos Heather

    Nothing is wrong with jokes. These are not jokes. They are frighting, disgusting comments that should have never been uttered.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    I hope that’s the case. Granted, my opinion may be biased as I once wrote a satirical article about atheist parents protesting a trailer for the Chronicles of Narnia being shown before “The Golden Compass” (something that several Christian groups had done with a trailer for “The Golden Compass” was shown before the first Narnia movie the year before) that was picked up and reported as real news by several news sites. So I know how it is to write something as a joke and be taken seriously…

    Honestly, I thought someone would have looked up the Dallas Agnostic’s Metroplex Native Enlightenment Delegation and eventually figured out the acronym…

  • http://twitter.com/FilmCritHULK FILM CRIT HULK

    CAVEAT: WHAT IF HE’S NOT MAKING JOKES ABOUT THAT, BUT MAKING JOKES ABOUT PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE THAT?

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    To quote a great man, who is more man than you’ll ever be and he’s fictional…”And with that sentence, you just lost the right to even talk to me. Now back off!”

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Then watch it anyways and stop worrying about things written expressly for the sake of humor.

  • http://twitter.com/DearDonald Donald McKendrick

    http://www.jamesgunn.com/2012/06/26/the-beezel-letters/

    Its probably satire, everything with him is. Also this is from 2 years ago, he could have grown if it wasn’t.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Gunn is a friend of Whedon’s.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Welcome to satire.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You’ll miss out on some good films then.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    It’s satire, and the difference is one is being serious where the other is played for laughs.

    “the people who DO believe that lesbians can be dicked out of being gay aren’t going to read this and seriously reconsider their positions on the matter. They’re going to see it as solidarity, and normalized opinion.”

    Yeah, some people aren’t going to get that it’s a joke. This is a problem with this sort of humor, but calling for it to never happen, ever… That’s kinda like saying The Onion should cease operations because sometimes people think the stuff posted on there is true, even though it’s obviously satire.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    It’s more than obvious to any normal person that the list is just satire.

    People who want to be offended and go looking for ways to be offended at things are going to take from it what they want.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    I’m gonna go out on a limb and bet that Whedon doesn’t care about a satire post Gunn made a year ago.

  • Katie Marinelli

    MundaneMatt, have you ever been made physically uncomfortable by someone? Maybe, maybe not, I don’t know. But guess what numerous women have been made to feel super uncomfortable by James Gunn. This isn’t funny. Because it might not be violent language used but it is threatening towards women in the sense that we’re supposed to ‘be good girls’ and accept how men talk about us. So no, not funny and it’s not feminists that ‘don’t have a sense of humor’ it’s men who think talking about women like they’re objects for sex that have a broken sense of humor.
    And yes there is indication of rape. He wants Tony Stark to ‘fix’ Batwoman with his dick. Cause you know forcing a lesbian woman to have sex with a man to ‘fix her’ is rape, just in case you didn’t know.

  • Megan

    Wow, no.

  • Anonymous

    It’s the Modest Proposal kind of satire. Satire that’s extreme to the point where one thinks it’s true.

    Which makes a lot of sense coming from Gunn since he got his start working on Troma films which are films where the humor is based totally around shock value.

    I’m not saying the list is funny but if you read it in the Simpson’s Comic Book Guy voice you’ll get the point.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You want to see probably the one guy that could get the GOTG movie right removed from the project based on a work of satire they did over a year ago?

    Talk about an overreaction.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You.

    You are a good person.

    Keep up the good work.

  • http://twitter.com/TDS_Matt Matt Thompson

    This, this, a million times this.

  • Anonymous

    And I’d also like to point out that yes, Brown and his followers are well beyond the pale, but Johnson has built her brand on both mocking him and slut-shaming Kim Kardashian, and it’s not defending Brown to highlight Johnson’s casual racism in the name of “Humor,” either.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Because people were not understanding that it was satire and thinking it represented his actual views.

  • Anonymous

    To be fair; some women do need a good dicking. Knocks the crazy loose.

  • Megan

    Wow, you are the worst kind of person.

  • Anonymous

    I do alright as a person. I don’t put up with bullshit though. Given the amount of “man hating Feminism” that has leaked in to pop culture this year, its hard to take any of you seriously. Considering that no matter how much logic and reason goes in to a debate, most Feminists never actually pay attention to any of it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Least important thing first: the fact that even trying to understand how to perceive another man as attractive makes him “sick to his stomach” makes me doubt him utterly as a writer and as a director. If you’re writing, you need to understand HOW a character might be attracted to another, not just that they are. As a director…

    Well, heck, look at Whedon and what he did in Avengers. There was a lot there for the female gaze, and not just because the menfolk are pretty. Not anywhere near as excessively as movies usually do for the male gaze, but still it was nice.

    Onto more important things. That post is gross. Just seriously, gross, with all the professional acumen of a ten-year-old. Seriously. What.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You’re choosing to interpret the characters and comments that way.

    A little research on the hulk would prove any of your comments about him false, but as for the exchange between him and Thor, I would think that the implication of him being stupid (dumb blonde) was what he was offended at, not the implication of being mistaken for a woman. Thor has cross-dressed on a couple of occasions to hide his identity and thought nothing of it, both in mythology and in the comics, and he respects both Sif and Jane Foster a great deal.

    Also, these days, “dumb blonde” is directed towards men as well as women, especially good-looking men.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Or maybe we’d like for a good movie to be made? Superhero movies have a history of problematically portraying women. Having this guy as the writer/director doesn’t really seem like it’s going to do much to buck that trend.

    Then again, you have enough time to complain about us complaining. But good to know that it’s a non-issue. Folks, it’s apparently a non-issue. So. Yeah.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Or see the movie anyways because Guardians of the Galaxy is a fantastic series.

  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    Eh. There are plenty of great films by men and women who aren’t mindless jerkoffs. I’d rather give them my money instead.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    It’s a satire article.

    Do you get mad at The Onion too?

  • http://twitter.com/00Seve Seve Canales

    Tell that to the geeks who were up in arms when JJ Abrams’ Superman script featured a gay Jimmy Olsen. Or the ones that protested Michael Clarke Duncan’s casting in Daredevil because we all know that Kingpin is white. I could go on.

    It’s interesting how everyone is attacking Gunn for his comments (which to any intelligent person is obvious satire, by the way) and not speaking out against the disgusting depiction of females in comics that he is displaying and obviously commenting on.

  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    Speaking as a lesbian who was raped by a guy who intended to ‘turn’ me – he doesn’t have the clearance to make those kinds of jokes. If jokes on that subject are going to be made, leave it me to make them. I’m plenty funny and I write excellent satire.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Really? Knocks the crazy loose? Sounds like you’re a candidate for this new medical procedure.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    But in the case of A Modest Proposal, no one WAS saying that the poor of Ireland needed to have more babies and sell the to the rich for food. That scenario came from Swift following current social norms to an absurdist end.

    That’s not what happened here. “If you read it in Comic Book Guy voice” doesn’t really cut it–everything sounds like parody in that voice. This is just seriously creepy. “I was just joking” is a defense that gets shouted out a lot. Like how Tosh was “just joking” that it would “hilarious” if a heavily out-numbered woman in his audience got raped. Maybe he didn’t actually mean “hey, rape her,” but it’s still an awful thing to say, and indicative of a massive sort of problem in his mind.

    And the thing is…even if he was joking…it’s still pretty awful. It’s not funny, it’s just “shocking” and “shocking” hasn’t been funny since Family Guy’s billionth season. So basically, it’s a badly written joke.

  • http://twitter.com/TDS_Matt Matt Thompson

    Who has the clearance to make any sort of joke, then? I’m incredibly sorry for what happened to you, but Gunn is making fun of the sheer inanity of the thought process that goes into thinking something like that is even possible.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Fun fact, feminism has little to do with men. It’s about women’s rights and if feminism offends you so much you might want to question how you treat and think of the women in your life.

  • Megan

    No, I’m pretty sure that any man who suggests that all a woman needs is a “good dicking” is not a cool person. Your dicks are not magical saviours of all that is “wrong” with women. Get over yourself.

  • http://ianoneear.blogspot.com/ Ian Abbott

    And who, pray-tell, gives out that clearance? You?

    I’m sorry for what happened to you, but it does not make you the internet thought police.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    The commercial for Slither showed a woman blown up like a zit about to pop, and it starred Nathan Fillion. I think everyone know it was a horror-parody from the get-go.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Oh, well…it’s his schtick. That’s alright then.

  • vulcanarchy

    Considering the fact we’re talking about JG’s defence of JJ when CB issued public threats against her, in that context? Yes. You are implying that she deserves to be threatened by a man who has committed at least one known act of domestic violence against a woman (which is an indicator that it likely wasn’t his first time, but the first time he’d been caught out, making it a very serious threat to consider) merely because she’s made racist remarks. I’m not defending her racism, I’m defending her right as a woman and a human being to be able to feel safe and be defended by other people when she has been threatened with physical violence by a violent man. I don’t have to agree with her world view to agree that she doesn’t deserve to feel less safe for having that world view.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Because the GOOD comedians tell don’t tell homophobic/misogynist/racist jokes.

    The GOOD ones tell jokes about how stupid those things are. They don’t just verbatim a “women, am I right, buddy?”

  • Anonymous

    Hi! I’m Rachel Edidin. I wrote the post you linked above and attributed to Heidi McDonald. Could you please fix that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    “It’s interesting how everyone is attacking Gunn for his comments (which
    to any intelligent person is obvious satire, by the way) and not
    speaking out against the disgusting depiction of females in comics that
    he is displaying and obviously commenting on.”

    What the ever-loving crap.

    Really? You really said this? You’re really going to play THAT card?

    What, do you think that just because in this particular article, we haven’t gone back and re-written essays about brokeback Catwoman, sexed-up Harley Quinn, and suddenly-skinny-and-hot Amanda Waller, that we NEVER speak up about sexist depictions of women in comics?

    You cannot possibly be that stupid.

    This is a whole site dedicate to the female side of nerddom. Heck, I found out about this mess from Sue of DCWKA fame. Heidi McDonald has a piece on this. Oh dear, why are these women attacking poor Gunn? Why aren’t they attacking bad artists and writers?!

    I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t realize that we had to comment about EVERYTHING wrong with the portrayal of women in comics EVERY SINGLE TIME WE CALL OUT AN INSTANCE OF BAD BEHAVIOR!

    Seriously, what the crap. “It’s interesting.” No. It’s not. You’re just trying to sound like you’re more enlightened.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    So you have to experience something to make jokes about it?

    What happened to you is horrible, but I just can’t see people coming together and banning stuff like dead baby jokes except for people who have lost their own infants.

    It’s dark humor. Some people have a taste for it, and some don’t.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Okay, on further thought.

    “It’s OBVIOUSLY satire.”

    No, it’s not. It may be satire, but it’s not “obvious.” Maybe some guys may think that, not being subjected to the, as David Willis once put it, “background radiation” of precisely this kind of thought for their whole nerdy little lives.

    But here’s the thing. Even if it is…BALLS, now I REALLY don’t want to see this man do a Marvel movie. Because what this tells me is that instead of interesting female characters, I’ll get a joke about the worst portrayals of women in comics. She’ll be dressed up in practically nothing and arching her back in every shot, but see, dude, it’s a JOKE. Because comics are like that and it’s silly, so if /I/ do it knowing full well that it’s a joke, that makes it hilarious.

    I get it. Gunn’s being sexist “ironically.” Like a hipster. Funny thing though–when people do something crappy “ironically”….it’s still crappy.

  • ender65

    The Spider-Woman comment about her face was in reference to the Skrull Queen Spider-Woman. The skrulls are green aliens with a weird chin who can shape shift. During Secret Invasion the Skrull Queen was impersonating Spider-Woman so that is what Gunn was referring to.

  • Anonymous

    I’m implying nothing of the sort. What I am doing is pointing out that citing her doesn’t excuse Gunn’s own slut-shaming and homophobic remarks, because as you can see, she’s capable of questionable remarks of her own. To say “he can’t be sexist because Jenny Johnson” is appropriating her words in and of itself.

    Johnson doesn’t deserve to be threatened, in any way, in any space. But neither did Los Lobos — one of my own personal favorite bands and a group of people who have put in decades of work as creators — do anything to warrant being called day-laborers in a prejorative sense. And frankly, Kim Kardashian, though I’m not a fan of hers, either, didn’t warrant being mocked for years, to the point where Johnson herself boasted about it in interviews.

    In recognizing my own male privilege on the issue, I did present it to my readers as a guide, and this comment stuck with me. I’ll post an excerpt here:

    The violent outbursts against JJH5 on Twitter are inexcusable, but when you practice and contribute to the cognitive dissonance around violence, race, and media portrayal in this country, the outcome is going to be predictably not pretty. Brown, unfortunately has become a focal point for young, mostly black people who are tired of this type of slanted coverage, JJH5 herself has contributed to that. Instead of having useful conversations about dealing with violence against women across races and classes, we talk about a Twitter fight. It’s extra frustrating to be because I feel like once again it’s young black women who loose [sic] in this battle.

    I’d also like to highlight Cord Jefferson’s piece on the issue on Gawker:

    . Pushing back against and complaining about Team Breezy via the #teambreezy Twitter hashtag is second nature for people like Johnson, who has also made a pet project out of belittling Kim Kardashian. Team Breezy, of course, is only happy to respond in kind. But there is no Team Connery or Team Sheen or Team Josh Brolin or Team Michael Fassbender or Team Any of the Other Many White Male Celebrities Accused of Domestic Violence. As pathetic as it sounds, snarking on Chris Brown and defending Chris Brown have become things people do at their school and work desks before being allowed to go home and watch television.

    So let me say this again: I do not support, condone or wish any harm upon Jenny Johnson. But for James Gunn supporters to hold her up as some sort of shield strikes me as disingenuous when the conversations with Brown are fraught with their own minefields, to which Brown himself has contributed mightily.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Y’ever notice how certain people can say certain words and it’s less awful than if other people say those exact same words because of things like past history and cultural mores?
    Can’t tell if troll…

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    As Heidi said in the article linked up there…. satire doesn’t work when it sounds EXACTLY LIKE THE REALITY.

  • captaincanada

    Not a troll! Just a guy who thought the comments were acceptable!

  • captaincanada

    He is a billionaire, genius celerity! He would easily get with batwoman!!! And it’s batwoman we are talking about – her comic barely sells and a crossover with Iron Man would help sales.

  • captaincanada

    So if Iron Man couldn’t turn Batwoman heterosexual, who could? Dr. Doom? Beyonder? Luke Cage?

  • DarthDave

    Whether we find his jokes funny or not is a separate issue. The personal taste of the reader does not change the intentions of the author.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Hey remember the fact that Batwoman is a lesbian? You must of forgotten. Or forgot what a lesbian is. It’s a woman who is EXCLUSIVELY attracted to women.

  • http://twitter.com/dandyxands E. Young

    Wow, the comments on this article are exhausting. I forgot that edgy “satire” + man = get out of jail free card in geekdom.

  • Katie Marinelli

    NO ONE. That’s the point of her homosexuality. She’s exclusively attracted to women in a way where she’d want to pursue a relationship.

  • http://twitter.com/dandyxands E. Young

    Because angry women = bad for the cause, lulz

  • http://twitter.com/thegaf The Gaf

    GODDAMMIT. I want this movie to be good so badly. I wish they had picked a director who wasn’t a terrible human being.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    See? This is the problem.

    People can’t take a joke.

    CaptainCanada’s post willfully ignores the obvious and makes a statement that is unexpected.

    Humor.

    Lighten up.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not saying Gunn’s list is particularly funny or great satire, but it definitely reads as a parody of misogynistic fanboys, but knowing his other work, that’s pretty true.

    I think the problem here is coming at the list as if it’s meant to be serious…when that’s just not the case.

  • Anonymous

    The Onion is actually funny! This? Not so much. Did you read the above article about satire relating to his “jokes”? It says what I want to say but much more eloquently than I can: http://postcardsfromspace.tumblr.com/post/36751576265/parsing-the-james-gunn-mess

  • captaincanada

    Maybe she’s bisexual? Can’t she start out homosexual in the comicbook world and discover new things? Just because she is homosexual today doesn’t mean she would be tomorrow.

    Also the Beyonder could – he controls reality! Thanos with infiniti gems too – but he has a thing for Death (who happens to be a woman as well!)

  • Anonymous

    Nope. Satire actually brings a twist to the table. This is just parroting what actual homophobes and sexist assholes say. Where is the satire in that?

  • Anonymous

    I think the author of this piece – and those adding their support in the comments – need to familiarize themselves with the real James Gunn in order to appreciate that that list was written ‘in character’. His tweets reveal a different person altogether. For instance, he slams Chris Brown and his treatment of women and was praising the female comic who forced Brown off Twitter. These are not the actions/attitudes of a misogynist. He was parodying the awful behaviour of macho, homophobic comic-book nerds. The fact that his language was close to the reality of what these people actually think and say means it was accurate satire. It isn’t his fault if some readers are too dim to comprehend his aims.

  • captaincanada

    Also for example in the comicbook world catriona from runaways was with a guy then went for girls! So people change! And if there is one catalyst for change it is Tony Stark.

  • Anonymous

    But if he was a super misogynist I don’t think he would have written a character like Elizabeth Banks’ character in “Slither.” If he didn’t respect women I don’t think he’d write very good women characters.

  • Anonymous

    But The Onion takes it to a level that shows, actually illustrates, that they are joking. If you just say the exact same thing as the people who believe this stuff, but roll your eyes while doing it? It doesn’t make it satire. It makes it saying the exact same stuff.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Funny is subjective, and obviously this form of satire isn’t for everyone.

    I disagree with that tumblr post, as well. In a nutshell, people need to grow up and understand that sometimes, a joke is a joke, and not something to get all uppity about. It’s poking fun at anyone and everyone involved, including the author, or do you really think James Gunn thinks that Wonder Woman fans want her to lasso their penises?

    Sometimes, life shouldn’t be taken quite so seriously, and just sometimes, you can have fun with these sorts of things.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1064437317 Thalia Sutton

    Susana, thank you for writing the most high-brow and educated post I have seen so far on this site, and on this issue. Finally, a breath of relief about women’s issues being taken seriously from a genderless and agendaless standpoint. (As well as being properly informative as an article.)

  • vulcanarchy

    I’m sorry, but your original remark expresses none of that. Instead, it seems to equate what JG did with what occurred between JJ and CB, and suggest that JJ deserves threats of violence along that “she brought it upon herself” trope that so many people like to use in the context of discussions about domestic violence or rape. The thing is, no one is citing JJ herself as any kind of excuse and therefore it’s not necessary to explore her character in this matter as though it has any bearing because it doesn’t. It really, really doesn’t. All you’ve honestly done is distract from the discussion that needs to happen with another that’s only very obscurely related by virtue of JJ being mentioned at all.

  • Anonymous

    And when I pointed out the context for that original remark in greater detail and in good faith, including independent viewpoints, you double-down on your original interpretation without any acknowledgment. Thank you, but I’d like to close this chapter of the thread.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Well if Beyonder changes reality it’s still a form of rape. Congrats, you’ve come up with a new way comics could portray rape! But what about you? Are you straight or gay? Then how about we get someone of the gender you’re not attracted to and make you have sex with. MAYBE YOU’LL TURN OUT BISEXUAL!

  • captaincanada

    So what is everyone’s thoughts on Gambit? Having sex with the dirty cajun wouldn’t make you sick? His accent annoys me when I read comics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kyle.taylor.5203577 Kyle Taylor

    Wha, I don’t even…are you people being serious here? This is the most overblown and ridiculous display of outrage I have ever seen.

    Misogynistic? Of course his commentary was misogynistic, he was commenting on a poll he posted called, of all things, “The 50 Superheroes You Most Want to Have Sex With: 2nd Annual Poll Results!”, going in what were you expecting? Jesus Christ.

    Homophobia? The only halfway valid claim there, and even that, while most could consider it in bad taste, was the off the cuff remark about “turn”ing batwoman and likely spoke to no deeper insight on his feelings of or toward lesbian women. His comments concerning Gambit, really who gives a shit? Most men abhor the idea of their balls slapping against another mans balls, and if you’re calling him out on the use of the word “fruit” get the fuck out of dodge, at that point you’re reading what you want into his words more so than was his actual intent. As far as flash goes I happen to agree with his sentiments, if its got to happen I would prefer it done quickly. Concerning Nightwing, I can find no valid grounds upon which anyone can defend this character, had he had cross words for Red Robin then perhaps would could speak.

    And for anyone to claim that his post actually reflect his views on women, fictional or otherwise, has either never been around of group of men talking shit, seen an episode of family guy, or have any concept of what humor is, regardless of whether or not you found it humorous. To attempt to indict him for comments he made for laughs is absurd. You cast yourselves his arbiter and attempt to impose on him attributes that his actual character does not portend. If you’ve ever seen anything he’s ever done then you know that he is, as an artist, eclectic, nuanced, at times obscene, charming and genuinely funny. I think if we are to judge, without actually knowing him personally, then it is far more rational to judge an artist by what he shares with us through his art and not what he posted on the internet in jest, lest we all be judge as harshly and placed under the same scrutiny.

  • http://www.mygeekygeekyways.com Starman

    Then why not leave the page there and just put a note on it? Pulling it just makes it look like he’s trying to hide it.

  • captaincanada

    Wow that is deep! I never thought about Beyond rape – that did happen in secret wars 2 when he falls in love with Dazzler!

    I’m straight. I never been with a guy but it is possible someone like Luke Cage could make me change! Never know to you try it, right?

  • Megan

    I am going to reiterate something that I said to someone else in the comments – penises are not magical, and can not “cure” or “fix” what you perceive to be wrong with a woman. Lesbian? There’s a penis for that! Crazy? There’s a penis for that too! Yeah, no … it doesn’t work like that.

  • vulcanarchy

    Um, I acknowledged it by saying that your original remark SEEMED to carry a different message than you apparently intended as well as going on to respond to everything you just said regarding the context you’re providing to say that a character analysis of JJ doesn’t actually have any bearing on what JG has done, nor is it a reliable argument to make to anyone supporting him because her character has nothing to do with his choice to defend her when she was threatened. Your context sucks and doesn’t hold water, sorry, and I’m actually not really surprised that you’d try to shut me up for calling you out on what reads like thinly-veiled misogyny.

    I don’t even support JG and I’m not defending him, in case that wasn’t clear.

  • Nick Gaston

    I know this is completely sidestepping the point, but…who are the “lesbian superhero couple” of the Marvel universe mentioned in the article? I honestly couldn’t remember *any* lesbian superhero couples that Marvel had in action at present.

  • TKS

    Though, jokes that rely on tired and hurtful stereotypes don’t necessarily earn defending. The “lesbians are women who haven’t been properly sexed by a man” stereotype is tired, unfunny, and encourages sexual assault.

    There’s nothing in the joke that pokes fun at the stereotype. It relies on the stereotype. Those are not the same thing.

  • TKS

    Your point?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    That was one out of fifty, and each poked fun at each character and the character’s fans and Gunn himself. I’ll admit, that particular joke was a dud, but for the most part, people need to lighten up, and a lot of the jokes actually are pretty darn funny.

    This whole ordeal is not worth the man’s job, and people are horribly overreacting.

  • Billy Kaplan

    You probably never tried pufferfish poison either. You should try it because hey, you never know if you’re immune and won’t die if you don’t try it. Right?

    And just so you know, since it seems to be a point that keeps being missed, you may be the exception to a very large majority. Congratulations! You are willing to try something new even though you’re straight. But you need to realize that most people who are straight or gay aren’t interested in “testing” their boundaries just to “try it.” No one knows for sure, except for the original creator, whether Kate is the exception like yourself or the majority.

    But rape is rape. It’s forcing another person to do something that they do not want. Rape isn’t funny and will never be funny except to those who are ignorant and insensitive. Even if you are simply “trolling”, I hope you realize deep inside that it’s pretty sick to laugh it off.

    And being “dicked” isn’t cool especially if someone else thinks that’s all you want, on the contrary to what you really think. If you think it’s still funny, consider the idea of having a dildo shoved into you whether or not you liked it or said no.

    Because ultimately, it’s rape. It’s being penetrated and laughed at and victim blamed.

  • Anonymous

    Moondragon and Phyla-Vell, I think.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You are disagreeing that the post is satire and intended to be humorous?

    Did you just not read it?

    I mean, how can anyone get past the very first post on the article and not understand that the whole thing is tongue in cheek?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1407800363 Kae Oz

    And some people need to understand that just because it’s “just a joke” to you doesn’t mean it is to others. Not caring that your “just a joke” reflects a threatening environment others live and not even trying to understand why they feel this way makes one a bit self centered.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    My point is that Gunn’s actual views are very progressive and shares many of the same views as Whedon.

    Go look up the guy before you open your mouth.

  • Katie Marinelli

    The problem is that calling something a joke doesn’t make it okay to say. If I say that I ‘hope you’re gangraped’ it doesn’t matter if I meant it as a joke, it’s not okay.Humor isn’t a get out of jail free card

  • captaincanada

    Why would you want to poison someone for a message board comment? That is excessive!! You need help.

    So if no one knows if batwoman could be turned other than “the original creator” isn’t his comment valid then?

    And the rape thing with Beyonder – are you seriously talking about that? Do you know who the Beyonder is?? I never even brought up rape – Katie did. So I don’t recall making a joke of it.

    When did I say “dicked” or rape by dildo??? I’m now more confused than batwoman having a drink at Iron Man’s place on the water!

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    But that’s not true. The Onion posts a lot of things that people actually believe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1407800363 Kae Oz

    What do you mean “What if”?
    What about this is supposed to lead us to that vague assumption? Other than your desire for it to be true?

  • Anonymous

    You’re disagreeing that people actually believe and say these things in a non satirical manner? Do you not live in this world?

    I mean, how can anyone hear these things said by genuine homophobes and sexists and actually think that saying the EXACT same things as them is funny?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Moondragon and Phyla-Vell.

    It’s a LONG story. But they’re awesome, and part of why Guardians of the Galaxy (2008 by Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning) is so universally praised.

  • TKS

    Progressive people can still have homophobic beliefs and make homophobic jokes. Being progressive does not excuse a joke that reinforces a damaging stereotype.

    I’m not saying the guy should be fired. But, until I read “I apologize. In retrospect, perhaps objectifying female characters and encouraging conversion rape were not my best ideas. And because apologies on the internet mean about as much as farts in space, I’ve donated this amount of money to the following charities,” I will be disappointed that he is representing one of my favorite companies.

  • TKS

    It could be the couple from the Runaways? I am not super familiar with them, but there is a Skrull and another hero that are in a lesbian relationship.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    What environment? The Environment of the internet? This isn’t a closed environment, it’s an open one. Nobody is stuck with this like they would be at a workplace or other place they had to be.

    This though? It’s a post on his blog, an open environment, and it starts with insinuating that wonder woman fans want to feel her lasso around their dicks.

    If from the outset it doesn’t present itself as completely ridiculous, I’m not sure what can.

  • Billy Kaplan

    /I/ need help. But dude, it’s a JOKE. GET IT. A JOKE. That’s why it’s okay and why it’s funny.

    Please tell me you understand sarcasm because that was 100% sarcastic and meant to prove a point. I see you got it but I don’t think you understand why I made that point yet.

    And yeah, his comment is valid but that doesn’t necessarily mean that in order for her to be a good character with proper development and runs, she needs to be having sex with a man. Sex isn’t always so important in an actual comic run. If you’re just looking for porn, there are porn sites. Comics are suppose to be interesting because of character development outside of the gritty bedroom details. It’s about how they grow and I don’t mean through sex.

    The rape commentary is not meant to be directed completely at you but rather at readers who think that rape is a subject to be joked about. It’s /never/ a subject to be joked about just like abuse and murders. Do I need to know who the Beyonder is in order to know that rape isn’t something to joke about? And so what if it happened already?

    That doesn’t make it right.

    As a human being that actually understands what is right to be used for humor, I’d say even if it happened in the past, it still doesn’t make it right. Because hey, just because it’s fictional or fantasy doesn’t mean that it’s a subject that should be made into a joke and therefore, lowered in actual importance.

    And /I/ said “dicked” because that’s my example of someone being raped. Doesn’t have to be your own bits penetrating, just the act of being forced to have sex in general or any kind.

    And if Batwoman is written so that she /has/ to have sex, to me, that’s pretty close to rape. She’s written to be happy as she is /right now/ and she is written to be very close to Renee. If she’s just being written off as someone who needs to have sex with a man to be a “proper character”, that’s pretty much saying that she has no worth except as blow up doll.

    If it’s clear to readers that she is not someone who /wants/ to have sex with a male just to “test waters”, honestly, that’s just forcing a character to be /out of character/ in order to prove a point on how characters can be turned to a different sexuality.

  • http://twitter.com/lysana Brenda/Lysana/either

    Whedon may write strong female characters, but he is not immune to sexism. He was planning to have Inara raped to give Mal a reaction plotline. He killed off Willow’s first same-sex lover in a ridiculous moment of bullet trajectories to add yet another dead lesbian who converted a nice straight girl to the list in Hollywood. And he also treated it as “turning,” denying Willow was ever truly in love with Oz through her own lips. And I could go on. Whedon should not be considered a feminist or an ally.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    But that post wasn’t made representing marvel, it was a stupid, funny little thing on his blog, and it’s not like Marvel hasn’t joked about which character they’d like to hook up with before.

    http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6161/dateacharacter.jpg

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    No, I’m not saying that people don’t say these things in a non-satirical way, however, those people are not James Gunn.

    You can choose to think that there is not a difference all you like.

  • Dane

    Holy shit, these are fictional characters he’s talking about. FICTIONAL. And the comments are written by someone who makes movies with a good degree of humor in them. I’m not saying I agree with what he says, but he can say that Iron Man could turn Batwoman straight all day and it wouldn’t goddamn matter because they don’t exist. In fact, something like that would be likely to happen in a badly-written comic. There are people in the world who molest children, and a series of joke-comments about Superhero sexuality is what concerns you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/razmane Charlie Tanner

    “Slut-slamming” directed at female characters and not men. Lets go on this first cause I find it funny and love this argument so much. “Men can be sluts too!” No we cant, we can be good at getting with women but if we whip out our cocks to a woman we get hit with indecent exposure. Example, Marti gras, how many beads do you think we get for doing a pink helicopter? None.

    Second, men invented sexual harassment, because they were failing at picking up women. You see, that is all sexual harassment is, a really badly delivered line. If I came to work in a pair of pants that made my package look like an over stuffed christmas stocking I would get fired. You come to work with cleavage that your boss could park his beamer in and you get a raise. See the difference?

    Slut is a term for women because through out history females pick the mate, when you pick forty you’re just being selfish, i.e. a slut.

    There is no reason for you people to get offended about this. Learn to take a joke and get your panties out of the knot they’re in. Learn to laugh at things, I have threatened to blindfold asians with toothfloss and they retorted by telling me to go burn a wagon, drink some whiskey and open a casino. We both laughed and moved on.

    Honestly I would have to make a recommendation to the person who posted this, perhaps you should make posts while aunt flow is in town. You seem a bit over emotional.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Uh, okay.

    Whedon has a couple of issues with the way that he kills off beloved characters, but to say that he doesn’t believe in equality for women because a fictional lesbian died in one of his stories is one hell of a conclusion to make.

  • Anonymous

    So if I go around saying something offensive, and then say “I can say those offensive things because I am ME, and not someone who thinks those things!” that’s… satire?

    Huh. I always thought there was more to it than that.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Sure, why not.

  • Anonymous

    How is a comment like that “unexpected”? It’s status quo, sweetie. Try being a lady walking down the street holding hands with another lady. Innuendo from total strangers about “turning” and a “good dicking” is a dime a dozen. Is that “humor” too?

    To paraphrase Melissa McEwan (and detectivewhoconsults, below): it’s not a joke. It’s the stuff of my real life. Some of us hear that shit all the time, and we’re sick of it.

  • TKS

    As a director of one if its franchises he represents the company. The same way Nolan represented DC as the director of the Batman trillogy.

    Your image isn’t a great match. Date =/= have sex with. (though some of the answers aren’t fantastic.) Also, notice how none of them suggest that homosexuality is something that can be banged out of a woman.

    Marvel’s not perfect (J Scott Campbell is an eschergirl MACHINE) but on the whole I feel Marvel is getting better, and anything that goes against that trend is disappointing.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Then just relax and wait for the movie.

  • http://twitter.com/TDS_Matt Matt Thompson

    Everything else Gunn has said or done in his life?

  • Dane

    Whoa, wait, has anyone actually read the list? The person who wrote the article above is talking out her ass. When she says he’s sick to his stomach about having sex with Gambit, he’s talking about having a threesome with his girlfriend and the idea of his balls slapping against Gambit’s balls makes him sick. He then goes on to talk about the probably gay sexual experiences with several male superheroes without, as the article-writer probably assumes, being physically ill at the thought of a man’s touch.

  • Dane

    I’d say Luke Cage because that hunk of man could turn me gay, but probably the Beyonder since I’m pretty sure he can warp reality.

  • Dane

    Because we all know the movie will just be Rocket Raccoon with a microphone talking about how homosexuality is a choice and then he’ll endorse rape as a romantic alternative to rejection.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Thank you for actually reading the darn thing like so many others have been too lazy to do, just looking for something to be offended by rather than actually taking a look and having a laugh themselves.

  • TKS

    Have to agree with BeakieHelmet on this one. You’re taking things out of context a good bit. Taking his entire body of work into account I think a very strong argument could be made that he is a feminist and ally.

    But you don’t have to take my word for it: http://www.alysa316.com/Whedonology/

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Nope, I would sex the man until the bedsprings snapped. And then pull him down on the floor and start all over again….

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    How about no one, since ‘turning’ a lesbian straight is not actually a real thing that happens ever?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Until he states that it was ‘expressly’ humor then we can’t take for granted that it is. If nothing else he could issue a simple apology explaining he didn’t meanto hurt anyone and is sorry for any harm caused; people could accept it or not as they chose, and everyone could move on. Until then, though, there’s no way to be sure he’s not completeut this, as so many in his industry are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Until he states that it was ‘expressly’ humor then we can’t take for granted that it is. If nothing else he could issue a simple apology explaining he didn’t meanto hurt anyone and is sorry for any harm caused; people could accept it or not as they chose, and everyone could move on. Until then, though, there’s no way to be sure he’s not completeut this, as so many in his industry are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Annnnd the above is not repulsive to any decent human being because……..? Help me out here; I’m drawing a blank!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Annnnd the above is not repulsive to any decent human being because……..? Help me out here; I’m drawing a blank!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    True, but he’s serving to reinforce attitudes that really hurt people in the real world. Let’s flip this for a second—-suppose it *were* actually possible to alter someone’s sexuality by raping them (it’s not and never will be). If he thought it would make you ‘normal’ (in this case, gay), would a gay man be within his right to pin you down and forcibly sodomize you?
    No, you cry, of course not! Yet on the issue of whether it’s okay to do the same to a lesbian, you fall silent and stare at your feet.

  • Anonymous

    “Gunn went way, way, WAY over the line”

    You support the point I was trying to make- the definition of that “line” is entirely subjective, from person to person. Susana said there was no problem with doing a “who I want to bang” column. But there are absolutely people who would maintain that it is NOT acceptable. So to those people, yes, Susana would be sexist, or whatever name they’d choose to use.

    “Here’s another example: Mel Gibson”

    Poor comparison; Mel Gibson was a walking example of the axiom “In Vino Veritas” – he was blind drunk in one case, unaware he was being recorded (and very possibly tipsy) in the other, and was absolutely speaking the contents of his heart. Mr. Gunn was writing a funny blog post (or attempted to).
    If Mr. Gunn said in an interview, seriously and explicitly, that the things he said here were what he believed, he held these opinions in real life, and the piece was intended as a manifesto, then yes, he would be guilty of having a terrible mindset about women and gays.

    I’m betting that’s not the case.

  • Penny Sautereau-Fife

    Well there goes my hopes that Carol Danvers/Ms Marvel will be a strong female lead.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    She’s not in Guardians of the Galaxy.

  • http://profiles.google.com/kitfoxtrot Christopher LaHaise

    That’s because some people are complete morons, About on par with the people who think Stephen Colbert’s an actual Republican. See, the thing is, Stephen Colbert does satire – but he does it *right*. I really don’t think we should cater to the lowest common denominator, though.

  • Dane

    I’m sorry, but I’m not understanding how it’s repulsive. He’s saying that the thought of his balls slapping against another man’s balls, as a heterosexual male, is unappealing. I would also not want to be in a sexual situation with another guy and it has nothing to do with hating gays. I’m just not attracted to the idea of balls slapping against balls. Gay or not.

  • Anonymous

    No one said he didn’t believe in those things. It was only stated that he is NOT immune to the fact he lives in a sexist culture.

    Plenty of men, who could be considered pro-feminist for their depiction of strong capable women, like Tarantino, Whedon, James Cameron, and Gunn, use storylines in ways that are sexist or perpetuate sexist sterotypes, and the fact that they may not to INTEND to be hurtful, does not exempt them from criticism.

    Case in point, the very article under discussion.

  • Dane

    Who the hell said rape was okay in any scenario? He mentioned a fictional sexual encounter between two fictional characters. There was literally no mention of rape. If you’re mind immediately jumps to rape when someone says that ‘turning’ a lesbian (which, I agree is not a thing that exists) leads to rape, then someone making jokes on the internet should not be your top priority.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Which totally makes the homophobia and sexism cool, in your book. Gotcha. So in other words you are not a good person.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Um. Do you know what a lesbian is? Do you agree that a lesbian, given that she is a lesbian, is not likely to be sexually attracted to men? Do you further agree that given her lack of atraction to males she would probably not be willing to have sex with males? Do you also remember what it’s called when someone causes you to have sex you don’t want to have? (A hint: it starts with an R and rhymes with ‘grape’!)

    Do you now understand how men can use this to hurt women, and do, epidemicly? (particularly in Africa; ‘corrective’ rape meant to make a lesbian prefer men is rampant in Uganda.)

  • Dane

    Okay, let me see if I understand your definitions. Homophobia is when you say that you’re not gay and would not like to have sex with someone of the same sex and sexism is when you talk about being attracted to people. Got it. Does that mean People Magazine is sexist because they put a picture of Channing Tatum without a shirt on their magazine and people want to find him attractive?

  • Dane

    And I agree that the idea of thinking homosexuality is a choice is stupid and that nobody should be forced to have sex with anyone that they don’t want to have sex with. But again, we’re talking about fictional characters. If DC and Marvel wanted to put out a crossover story where Batwoman meets Iron Man, and the writer is foolish enough to think in such an archaic way that she has sex with him, that’s their right as publishing companies who own the characters. It’s a terrible choice and would probably be reviled, but if they wanted to do it, they could.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    It doesn’t matter that they’re fictional characters; ever time he, a respected name in the industry, promotes such beliefs they become more normalized and more deeply-rooted in those who do hold them. What you refuse to see is that this does have real-world impact, and hurts real people in real, terrible ways.

  • Anonymous

    I really do think it’s satire. It more obvious if you know a bit about Gunn. It’s also much more apparent when the list is read in its entirety, and not read as small pieces that have been pulled out of context.

    I feel that it’s worth noting that this line, “like when he says he’d have sex with Spider-Woman but he wouldn’t want to look at her face while doing it” was about a skrull.

    This other line, “My girlfriend voted for this Cajun fruit.” He goes on to say that the idea of having sex with Gambit himself makes him sick to his stomach. Because, again, imagining a man as attractive to a woman necessarily requires you to imagine him as gay.” was about having a threesome with his wife and Gambit (a character that he doesn’t like.)

    I think it’s interesting how no one has mentioned the part in which Gunn says that, if he were gay, he’d want to have sex with Tony Stark. In fact, the sexual commentary on Tony’s entry was longer than many of the others. The more ya know…

  • Dane

    You’re totally right. After King Kong came out, giant ape attacks rose at least 40%.

    And, in case it isn’t obvious, that was a joke. Oh, sorry, joke is when you say something that is not meant in a serious manner. And holy shit, yes it does matter that they’re fictional. He can say literally anything about them and it doesn’t matter. Now, if he was saying the same thing but about Ellen Degeneres and Gary Oldman, then it would be a problem because they’re real people who can be affected by real-world problems.

    And once again, if a person thinks that rape is an okay thing to do if they honestly believe that a lesbian just needs a man, then it has nothing to do with jokes that James Gunn made. It has to do with them being a rapist dickhead and they should rot in prison.
    If I announce through a loudspeaker that all people listening should cut off their thumbs and they do it, that should not be on me. That should be on them being stupid or disturbed enough to actually do it.

  • imaginarysorrow

    omg trying to read all these comments is exhausting…. I am a 30 year old bisexual female that found the blog quite funny… its a blog about wanting to have sex with a superhero not what superhero you want to marry…… plus its about FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK characters which have always sexualized females i mean come on most have huge boobs and have slept with most of the men in their own comic book worlds i mean come on…. if you can’t sit back and read it for what it is a then i feel sorry for you

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    It might be more of a joke if it wasn’t exactly what a good portion of comics fandom actually thinks of women. Go read what he has to say about Stephanie Brown. That’s what he thinks of you, as a woman. What he says about Batwoman—-he thinks you, as bisexual woman, ought to be forced into sex with a man to turn you ‘all the way straight’.
    Just remember that.

  • Anonymous

    If you cant tell the difference between an actual rant by an actual misogynist and someone making fun of them then I am pretty sure your satire has failed, also what is the fucking point? The internet is already full of hate why add to it in a way that most people are going to see you as serious?

    I don’t want Gunn removed as director and I’ll see the film is I hear it’s okay but he should acknowledge that his post was unnecessarily offensive, after all it was taken down, so he must realise there was something wrong with it.

  • Dane

    Keep that in mind, imaginarysorrow. The next time you read something that’s funny, it was actually written in all seriousness and assumes that not only did you give up your baby that you had as a teenager for adoption, but that you are easy and that you should have sex with a man against your will! That is exactly what James Gunn means when he makes ‘jokes’.
    Ammie, if you can’t understand simple jokes, how did you even figure out which side of the computer to look at to read this article?

  • imaginarysorrow

    i read the whole thing, ITS FUNNY.. just because some people want to make it to be more then what it was meant for is sad… i know women that are more crude and graphic about how they talk about and sexualize men so just because he’s a male some make it out to be more threatening then it is when it is likely made as a joke .. Women want to be equal to men but when it comes to things like this most of us as a gender get offended and go to extremes but we can be as equally vulgar if not more so but its ok because we are women and non-threatening

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    It’s still confirmation of those beliefs from someone they respect and trust. Still harmful.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    So….what makes you so sure he meant it as such? Did he tell you this? Or are you simply desperate for it to BE a joke so you don’t feel bad about thinking those things yourself?

  • Dane

    What makes you so sure it isn’t meant as a joke? Why are YOU so desperate for it not to be a joke? It’s a list about having sex with comic book characters. What part of it makes you think it was written seriously?

  • Dane

    And I’m sure plenty of people respected and trusted Mel Gibson, but I seriously doubt that a majority of his fans hate Jewish people or think that the holocaust was a lie. And the ones that do are goddamn nutbars.

  • Anonymous

    The thing is, a good portion of the comics fandom doesn’t think that at all. And for every guy that makes a snide comment or an unfounded assumption about a woman, there’s a woman making the same comments and assumptions about a man. It happens all the time on this site and others, with comments that instantly attack the opinion of a male commenter as being sexist or misogynistic simply for not agreeing with the authors opinion. If I had a quarter for every time I saw something to the effect of “you’re a guy, you couldn’t possibly feel pain while living in this male oriented world,” or “you’re in denial of your obvious sexist and misogynistic nature,” I’d be rich. A tasteless attempt at satire is not indicative of some kind of malicious agenda towards women and gay people. Before you start putting words into his mouth, why don’t you just wait and see what Gunn has to say about it?

  • Marathon

    His other blog posts also seem to indicate a similar level of inanity, so there is a consistency there. Whether or not it is a “persona”, the act is tired, very, very tired, and definitely uncalled for. His brand of comedy is not progressive, inventive, or funny. I smell an overrated hack flogging the dead horse of “shock value”. I don’t mind hacks if they’re either humble/nice and/or have camp value in their modus operandi, but this James Gunn person lacks both and seems pretty arrogant in even thinking his type of crap is funny in its tired misogyny and homophobia.

    Changing directors would be a good thing in sending out a strong message. And creatively speaking, if his output to date is anything to go by, changing directors would not hurt one bit. A hack arrogantly flogging dead horses of comedy and hurting others (especially already wronged minorities) in the process is something to preferably get rid of. Good riddance, I say.

  • imaginarysorrow

    if he comes out and says thats how he feels then i will be the first one to say i was wrong… but its not gonna make me change my mind about going to see that movie because i like his work… just because he’s a complete and total ass doesn’t mean he’s a bad director, if i chose things on how i felt about the people personally
    (which all i know about this is what i read or hear about) then i would hate 90% of what i like at this moment in time….

  • http://adornyourhearts.tumblr.com Xomyx

    I’m calling it, “its just a joke” is the new “I’m not racist/sexist/homophobic but…[incredibly racist/sexist/homophobic statement]” Because cis dudes think raping queer women is funny doesn’t mean I don’t get to take offense.

  • Anonymous

    Men hear it too, but it’s generally considered okay for a woman to make those types of comments. Remember when New Moon came out and adult women had no qualms about voicing their love of 17 year old Taylor Lautner? Some people called out the double standard, and that’s it. If the situation were reversed, the men that so much as suggested the girl was pretty would be on “Catch a Predator” in seconds. Or for a more geeky example, just look at yaoi fangirls. They do, say and get away with a ton of crap every day. Status quo is both genders doing exactly the same thing, but society saying it’s bad for only one of them to do it.

  • Knots

    Meaning: if he’s trying to be funny it’s actually called hyperbole

    If you’re going to defend it as humor at least get your literary conventions right.

  • imaginarysorrow

    IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT RAPE….. is it so hard to think oh maybe one night batwoman and iron man get totally shit faced drunk and one thing leads to another and they have sex……… i have a cousin that is a lesbian was married to a man for 3 years….. i have another one that got drunk and had sex with a guy.. its not unheard of but in the end they didn’t turn straight still not rape

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, it doesn’t matter who’s voice you read it in. It still isn’t satire, It still isn’t funny.

  • Anonymous

    It’s odd – I’ve heard some of these defences about satire and about someone being just over the top before. Not too long ago in fact …

    Rick Santoram:”an entertainer can be absurd.”

    Ron Paul: “the comments were over the top”

    They, of course, were referring to the slut-shaming of Sandra Fluke by Limbaugh. Then in Limbaugh’s apology he tried to pass it off as just that, him trying to be absurd:
    “For over 20 years, I have illustrated the absurd with absurdity, three hours a day, five days a week. In this instance, I chose the wrong words in my analogy of the situation.”

    To see these types of statements come up again in the defence of something that was, at the very least, in pretty poor taste, is a bit concerning.

  • Anonymous

    People need to grow up and understand that they cannot order everyone to laugh on command– especially when the joke isn’t funny.
    Sometimes, you shouldn’t expect the whole world to share your joking nature, Sometimes, you can have compassion for people who have experienced these “jokes” ad nauseum.

  • Anonymous

    oh, noes.

    His Job! his precious precious JOB! The job that no one else can do! The job he’s going to lose because those mean people can’t take a joke!

    Dude, I want someone else to have his job. Someone else who also is a great director, a geek of wit, talent and possibly– a better sense of humor.

    Maybe a woman.

  • Anonymous

    oops. You spoke up. Now the boys are gonna get all defensive on your ass.

  • Anonymous

    You guys keep saying “Gunn made a joke!” as if saying it a whole lot will make it true. But Gunn needs to speak for himself.

  • Anonymous

    It does mean that if she speaks her mind about it women will listen to her with respect.

  • http://www.facebook.com/chelsea.miller Chelsea Miller

    What good films? I was pissed this guy was brought on as director before this mess because he makes terrible films, now I’m just MORE pissed!

  • Anonymous

    There is an enormous difference between the absurd humor of a dead baby joke, which will never affect you or me personally– we both hope–, and the entirely common threat of rape which will probably also never affect YOU personally but has affected me personally, along with far too many women of my acquaintance.

    If you ever have a baby die, you will have every right to decide if those jokes are funny or not.

    It’s obvious that for whatever reason, you’ve personally invested yourself in Gunn’s defense. You’re wasting your time. Gunn can defend himself. He already has more power than any of the women who object to him.

  • Anonymous

    I think Gunn is right now trying to figure out what he’s going to tell the public. He knows that he’s got a problem– he made the post disappear.

  • Anonymous

    I think Gunn is right now trying to figure out what he’s going to tell the public. He knows that he’s got a problem– he made the post disappear.

  • Anonymous

    Tis’ better to speak plainly and clearly and unmistakeably. Jokes that mimic horrible behavior… are horrible behavior.

  • Anonymous

    Alrighty then.

  • Anonymous

    Is this more hilarious satire? Go back to reddit or 4chan or whatever cesspool tolerates your navel-gazing, masturbatory trolling.

  • Anonymous

    i think you should try this theory out. Let us know what hospital you eventually end up in, so we can all send you flowers.

  • Anonymous

    Phyla-Vell and Moondragon are the lesbian couple associated with GotG. They are apparently not on the roster of the upcoming film. Given Gunn’s attitude, that’s probably a good thing.

  • uptightcrank

    Thank God someone has finally spoken out. What this world needs is to be a soulless warm,fuzzy nanny state and heaven forbid that someone write something that can be taken out of context. People joking around makes it really hard to take everything on the internet seriously. What was he thinking?!

  • Anonymous

    “But here’s the thing. Even if it is…BALLS, now I REALLY don’t want to see this man do a Marvel movie. Because what this tells me is that instead of interesting female characters, I’ll get a joke about the worst portrayals of women in comics. She’ll be dressed up in practically nothing and arching her back in every shot, but see, dude, it’s a JOKE.”

    You just described Gamora.

  • Anonymous

    Well, as long as he keeps all this crap out of his films, I’ll see ‘em.

  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    It perpetuates a common idea that lesbians can be “turned.” That women don’t own their own sexuality, and that it can be manipulated or controlled by men. There are people who believe that in real life – I was raped by one of them. It *is* wrong to reinforce that idea over and over, even with fictional characters. I actually identify with Batwoman; she’s a superhero that is actually a reflection of me. The idea that someone would or could try to “turn” her is disturbing because it reminds me that there are really people out there in the world who don’t think I get to have ownership of my own sexuality.

  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    It perpetuates a common idea that lesbians can be “turned.” That women don’t own their own sexuality, and that it can be manipulated or controlled by men. There are people who believe that in real life – I was raped by one of them. It *is* wrong to reinforce that idea over and over, even with fictional characters. I actually identify with Batwoman; she’s a superhero that is actually a reflection of me. The idea that someone would or could try to “turn” her is disturbing because it reminds me that there are really people out there in the world who don’t think I get to have ownership of my own sexuality.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    “There’s nothing in the joke that pokes fun at the stereotype. It relies on the stereotype.”

    Yes, this. The stereotypes and the attitudes that he’s displaying in the post aren’t funny, they’re abusive, and they don’t magically become funny just because you read his comments in Comic Book Guy’s voice or whatever it was somebody further up the comments suggested.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Are you five? You do not get to decide whether or not someone else finds your language abusive.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Yeah, I really believe that he’s making fun of that sort of thinking by… writing a whole bunch of examples of it in a blog post.

    If it’s really satire, why did he delete the post? Why try to hide the evidence?

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Yeah, and by deleting the post to try to hide the evidence, he’s clearly RUSHING to explain himself.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Thank you so much for explaining what irony is for the benefit of our poor little lady brains! Now that you’ve shown me the light, I can definitely see that jokes about how teenage mothers are sluts and lesbians being turned straight are actually hilarious!

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    “though I would mention to all Marvel writers that it’s a creative writing no-no to phonetically write out every single bit of dialogue by a person with an accent”

    This bit here made me question the dude’s intelligence.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    I disagree. The intentions of the author do not change the effect of his words. If you’re satirising this sort of attitude by writing a post full of this sort of attitude – to the extent that it’s indistinguishable from non-satirical sexism and homophobia – what difference does it make what you intended?

    And if it was a satire, why did he delete the post rather than just add a note explaining it?

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Ah, so ‘normal’ means not caring if other people are offended. Right. Got it.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    I’m not out to constrain his freedom of speech. But I *also* have the freedom of speech to say when I find something creepy and offensive. And I do, in fact, find his post creepy and offensive.

    He has the freedom to make those remarks; I have the freedom to decide not to spend my money on a film made by someone who makes those remarks. It’s almost like freedom doesn’t just exist for entitled jerks like Gunn.

  • Anonymous

    There is a thin line between humor, satire and just being a dick. I think implying that lesbians can be “turned” is one example of the line.

  • Anonymous

    Raquel – because a joke is usually funny?

  • Anonymous

    I think by deleting it he has commented.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    Yeah, because it’s not like popular fictional stories have any effect on the wider culture of the real world or anything. Comic books exist in a complete vacuum!

    Come on. Even in a comment thread filled with really poor attempts at explaining away the sexism and homophobia of the original post, your argument stands out as weak.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    But what do his opinions on having sex with men have to do with the tastes of the people who voted for the character?

  • http://twitter.com/ChannelDiza Chanel Diaz

    “The Official Website of Filmmaker James Gunn; For Shit Outside the Norm.”

    His whole website is nonsensical. His Shit’s Inside the NORM.

  • http://twitter.com/bibliolicious Dr Nic

    If you honestly think that the people who find this offensive and creepy haven’t read the post, and if only they read it they would find sexism funny… what world are you living in?

    I’ve read the post. I found it vile. Even if this is satire – which I find hard to believe given that he deleted the post rather than explaining it – it’s trading on tired old abusive streotypes to make its points. He’s entitled to his views; I’m entitled to mine.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You didn’t like Slither and Super? Sorry, but this guy is a perfect match for gotg.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You can choose to take offense at anything under the sun if you so desire.

    You’ll be better off getting mad at people who do it seriously rather than satire posts.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    I’m going to go ahead and say ‘no.’

    No comedian should ever be censored because someone happened to find a joke offensive.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Have you read Guardians of the Galaxy?

    There is literally no other director capable of getting this movie right.

    “Maybe a woman” – so you really don’t understand this whole equality thing, huh? The best person gets the job, man or woman

  • SlamAdams

    I don’t like the trend that when someone tries to be funny but fails at getting laughs is considered to be the same as speaking sincerely. Seems like it is happening a lot lately. It might not be funny, but they have to be allowed to go their. Its how the creative process works. And I understand that your feelings might get hurt, but you have the same responsibility to gauge your response that you think Gunn should have had before writing the particular blog (or whatever). Let’s not lump Gunn in with truly (and most times proudly) ignorant people because he tried making fun of fanboys who over-sexualize cartoons. Please, speak your mind, but this doesn’t seem like the right case to pick up the pitchforks and torches and chase him out of town.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You are wishing violence and harm on an actual human being due to words said on the internet.

    You need to think about what you say before you come off as a massive hypocrite.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Anyone can find anyone offensive. So long as it’s words on the internet you should not care, especially satire posts.

  • SlamAdams

    “Because ultimately, it’s rape. It’s being penetrated and laughed at and victim blamed.” No, the victim is not being laughed. The person who thinks lesbians are just one good dick away from being straight is being laughed at.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    True, I didn’t appreciate that one either, but people are still horribly overreacting to a stupid thing on the internet.

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    Satire is supposed to be funny and intelligent.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Did you look at the article at all?

    How is it not expressly written as humor?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    That’s politics though, where if they don’t apologize for any given slight the news media will run rampant with it. This is the entertainment industry.

  • SlamAdams

    Reading this comment section, I don’t think an explanation would do much. He’s already been judged.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Because people started overreacting

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Gunn already did, by presenting them as ridiculous jokes on par with his troma films and pg porn skits.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    You are hilarious.

  • SlamAdams

    The punchline is that there are people who actually think this way and an entire media industry that plays into their conceits.

  • SlamAdams

    That’s because you are reading to much into it

  • Anonymous

    Um, if I’m not wrong, in the piece in question, he identified Spider-Woman as Jessica JONES.

    He’s obviously a Fake Geek Boy to not know she’s Jessica DREW.

    Yet another reason this movie ain’t seeing a dime of my money.

  • Galena Ostipow

    Super was a fucking disturbing movie, and not evidence that he knows how to treat female characters with nuance and maturity.

  • SlamAdams

    Satire does not have a traditional punchline. It is not a knock-knock joke. It is about using irony, sarcasm, and exaggeration to hold society’s faults up and force them to face them in all of their ridiculousness. It’s true intention was to shame people into social change. The fault here is that there is an entire audience online of sexually inexperienced and romantically challenged fans who have had their expectations distorted by fantasy stories.

  • Anonymous

    Correct on all counts. If you find the post creepy, your opinion is absolutely right, for you, and I would be wrong to try to change your mind. And YOU would be wrong to try to change MY mind that I DON’T find it offensive. And you’re not, so your standpoint is perfectly acceptable.

    But that’s not what people are doing. People aren’t saying they don’t want to spend their money on his film; they’re saying he should be pulled OFF the film. THAT is the facet of this I don’t hold with.

    If enough people say they won’t see it if he makes the film…well, first off, a good number of them will change their mind. Comics fans are good at making statements they won’t follow through on. But if enough people make the statement, the movie company might choose to take him off.

    And the guy that TWO DAYS AGO everyone was all hot and twisty to do the film will be off it, for nothing more than because he wrote an attemptedly (if it wasn’t before, it’s a word now) funny blog post two years ago.

    If we start using the rule that every single thing ever said online must be analyzed and parsed before one is allowed to do a job…well, not a lot’s gonna get done. I can kiss my Senate campaign RIGHT off, for one.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    When was the last time you heard a woman suggest that a gay man ought to be raped so as to make him straight? Almost every single woman I know would be horrified and disgusted by the very idea.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Um, the fact that he has not come forth to say it was a joke, is what makes me sure it’s not a joke. How stupid are you that you can’t understand this?

  • Anonymous

    Nonsense. There is a world of difference between expressing desire for FICTIONAL CHARACTERS and yelling lewd and threatening comments at strangers on the street. You know this.

    There’s also a big difference between women swooning over Taylor Lautner and James Gun saying a good fuck would turn Batwoman straight. (Unless there are a buncha women out there making “Rape Jacob!” jokes and I somehow missed it.)

    But I thought the consensus Gunn defense was that his comments were just “satire”. Which is it, satire or double standard?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    …..Have you sen Mel Gibson get any kind of work or notoriety or…anything at all since he went on his nasty true-self-revealing outburst? No? That’s because the public has dropped him like a goddamn hot potato, realizing what he is.

  • SlamAdams

    Do people consider what Limbaugh does to be satire? I don’t really listen to Limbaugh and only hear what he says when he makes a big enough stink to make it to the headlines, which make him seem sincere. Comparably, I see Stephen Colbert as the satirical one.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    No one should be looked down on for their gender, male or female, or for who they love. Mr. Gunn is an equal-opportunity offender here, so everybody loses!

  • Dane

    Do you get pissed off at every tv show that doesn’t specifically say that it’s a work of fiction? People like you are the reason we need to have warnings on hot cups of coffee. And just so we’re clear, these strange symbols that you’re reading are called letters. They go together to make words that you may understand in what’s known as the English language. Just wanted to make that clear so you didn’t think I was just typing an image of a dog on a unicycle, you fucking mongoloid.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    ….sex with a woman who is, in your words, shitfaced drunk, is still rape. If you’re inebriated to the point of temporarily forgetting your sexual preference, you are legally too intoxicated to consent. Either way, he’s raped her. (And she may also have raped him, if he too was too drunk to know or rememember what he was doing.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Oh, I get it, you’re pissed that no one is laughing at all the sexism you find hilarious. Thing is, it’s not a joke and it’s not funny.

  • http://www.facebook.com/stseanoftheknife Sean McGrath

    “Won’t somebody think of the Guardians?!?”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Okay, so show us how he’s exxagerated anything here. People literally believe exactly what he wrote, that it takes a good raping to turn lesbian women straight and that gay men might as well be women (the horror!)
    If you’re just stating by-line what people really think and believe, all you’re doing is confirming those beliefs, you’re not challenging them in any way shape or form.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    No, Limbaugh really believes what he says and so do his cult of followers.

  • SlamAdams

    The funny thing is that this is a good post but hate is not supposed to be directed at Gunn but the people who actually think this way that Gunn is exaggerating. That is what this entire comment section doesn’t understand, and form what I have read, REFUSES to understand

  • Guest
  • SlamAdams

    I have never seen those feelings taken to such a crude and blunt degree. Its usually more passive aggressive.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Oh, okay, I’ll go tell my cousin she’s ‘overreacting’ to what the man two apartments over did to her. Why should she be upset? It’s not like this man in a position of respect to whom hundreds if not thousands of other men admire and aspire to emulate, is actually promoting the mindset towards women that resulted in the attack that left her infertile and mentally traumatized, right?
    Oh wait, he’s promoting that very thing.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    So if a known comedian, let’s say Lewis Black, makes a joke about the Holocaust never happening, which people actually believe, you feel he should be censored and possibly fired for it?

  • SlamAdams

    Thats what I thought. And it also means he is not being satirical

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    Lewis Black is a Jewish comedian. He could very well make a joke about the Holocaust never happening, but I can’t imagine him making it in a way that would leave any doubt that it was satire. Now, if a Gentile comedian made such a joke, and made it in such a way that it was indistinguishable from actual Holocaust-denial rhetoric, yeah I would expect some outrage.

  • http://twitter.com/TDS_Matt Matt Thompson

    So, just to be clear — you really think the guy who wrote a number of Troma films, and who directed Slither and Super, who’s a good friend of awfully progressive-minded Joss Whedon, believes that Tony Stark should actually rape a lesbian straight?

    I mean, really guys?

  • SlamAdams

    This is something I will never understand. So nothing bad should EVER happen to women in fiction? Something bad has to happen to get the plot going. Women shouldn’t be invincible in fiction. It is not sexist to have something bad happen to a female character, it is sexist if the character development is not handled like she is a real person.

  • Marathon

    Agreed. It’s not like he’s showing any sort of staggering intelligence, creativity, or charm anywhere else in his blog. Simply put, the guy is a lowest common denominator hack and a scumbag to boot.

  • SlamAdams

    Funny is subjective. A bad joke is still a joke.

  • SlamAdams

    You are overreacting, because you are acting like this blogpost is the same as the real-life abuse your cousin experienced. Its not even close to being the same thing.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Hoo boy.

    A written action, a joke about two fictional characters done by not only an author, but someone known for dark humor does not equate to someone taking horrible actions towards another person. Works of fiction are works of fiction, and should not be censored. The entire list is completely ridiculous, someone would have to be very hard pressed to think that any of it is sincere.

    Believe it or not, but Stephen Colbert doesn’t actually promote the banning of contraceptives, Christwire doesn’t actually believe that shaving your vulva leads to starring in internet pornography, and the Onion… do I need to go on?

    Look, I understand that that sort of thing isn’t funny to you, because it strikes close to home for you. For a lot of people however, including women, it is pretty funny, especially for people who know all the characters involved and understand some of the in-jokes. Wanting to see the best guy for the project taken off the project because you personally do not find a joke told over a year ago funny, a joke that you had to not only actively seek out to see but has been since taken down is overreacting to a large degree.

  • SlamAdams

    So if a lesbian wrote the list it would be ok?

  • SlamAdams

    I don’t see why he should jump through hoops for you because you misunderstood the post.

  • SlamAdams

    I’m not commanding people to laugh. I don’t think this joke is funny, but that doesn’t magically make it a sincere statement. Understanding goes both ways, and maybe you shouldn’t blacklist a guy as a bigot because he worded a joke poorly.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    I think that if Lewis Black wrote the joke down on his blog and that if someone was not familiar with his work they could easily mistake it for sincere, just as people are doing with Gunn now.

    Imagine reading the joke taken out of context and not knowing it’s by Lewis Black. It’d be pretty indistinguishable then.

    The way this article is written… it’s written in an emotional manner and the most offensive statement is taken out of context (one of a large list of ridiculous statements) and put at the top of the page, highlighting that first before anyone gets a single look at anything else on the list or is even familiar with who the person is. The article then presents the entire post as statements of fact, rather than poking fun at everyone involved, including the author, and the article above further makes misleading statements such as Gunn’s position on Gambit.

    (In a nutshell, the original post talks about how Gunn’s wife has said that she would want a threesome with him and Gambit, and he would have trouble performing this action. That’s the PC version anyways.)

    (“Cajun Fruit” is also used to refer to any beautiful cajun person, “fruit” is not slang for homosexual in this instance.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Her attack came out of the same kind of attitudes towards women that Gunn espouses in the article.

  • SlamAdams

    I thought he did a pretty impressive job of showing a young girl who’s views on sex and romance were completely distorted by the fantasy stories she immersed herself in.

  • SlamAdams

    You can take offense, but don’t pretend that the guy who said it is magically sincere because he failed at being funny.

  • Anonymous

    My God…you’re like the stoning women wearing fake beards in “Life of Brian”.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    No, no it did not.

  • http://twitter.com/mteague MATTHEW T MILLER

    Happy to be of service. Maybe you could direct your anger toward actual, real sexism now. I did not say I thought it was funny, nor did I condescend to women or men, but thanks for going ahead and assuming the worst about me, thereby proving my point.

  • http://twitter.com/mteague MATTHEW T MILLER

    Thanks. I am correct, however.

    Irony: Def: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
    Hyperbole: Def: exaggeration

    He didn’t exaggerate. He wrote a dickish piece expressing feelings he didn’t actually have. Therefore: he used irony.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    It’s a two-edged sword on this one.

    The idea is that in a lot of stories, something bad happens to the male hero’s woman, and then that makes the male hero take action in some way. They die, they get kidnapped, etc. This almost never happens in the reverse.

    I don’t think that this happening in a single story should be regarded as sexist in all cases, as the idea of something happening to a loved one is a very common motivation for protagonists and you really have to take it on a character by character basis, but because this happens to women far, far more frequently than the reverse there is an argument of sexism in the entertainment industry and it does have some merit.

    It’s changing though. There are more female leads in stories, there are a ton of movies now where the people in relationships regard each other as equals, and the reverse actually does happen in some cases. The Underworld films come to mind, where Kate Beckinsale is basically fighting to save her mutant hybrid boyfriend throughout all the films, and Kate does a lot more fighting than he does.

    People mistake every instance of it as being sexist though, rather than certain cases or the fact that it happens across so many stories. The best answer is to simply not worry about it, and write the characters as people rather than sexes, because if you think too hard on it you’ll wind up skewing something in the opposite direction in an attempt to overcompensate for what is going on in other stories or society, not what is happening in your particular story. That’s pretty much all there is to it.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    He also does it with spoken word and where you can see his face. It’d be a lot harder to understand him as satire if he wrote it all down and didn’t say it himself.

  • DarthDave

    If that’s the case we’re all going to have to spend the rest of our lives apologising every time some stranger misinterprets something we’ve said. It’s going to be rather exhausting.

  • Polly Ripley

    Interesting that anyone who posts a calm, rational response to all this silliness gets at least five down votes. Put away your pitchforks and flaming torches and take a breath before you start ranting, please.

  • MarkP

    I think that this is an over-reaction, and the online petition (how typical, and how useless) is even more so.

    I mean, seriously, what Mr. Gunn wrote is pretty hilarious, if you take the
    entirety of his career into perspective. I find most of the comments here are
    reading this one post, and extrapolating from that, without taking into
    account that Gunn’s entire career has been about unsettling humor.
    That’s his gig, be it the Troma films, SLITHER, or SUPER.

    Granted, he trades in a VERY difficult form of humor, wherein you attempt to
    push things so far as to go past discomfort to laughter at the pure
    audacity of it all. You can turn off a HUGE swath of your audience, and
    I’m sure he accepts that, he probably also accepts that a large part of
    the audience will not understand his intentions at all. Will think that he’s serious about it.

    He’s not. I can assure you, based on his past work, but he also knows he may offend people. That’s the line he’s chosen to walk.

    Take Don Rickles. His gig, as a comedian, is to, flat-out, insult his audience. I can see being taken aback if you weren’t expecting that, but…it’s not like he hides that’s what he does. Neither does Gunn.

    If you’re offended, fair play, and you’ve learned something about this particular creative person. You can avoid his work in the future, and that’s absolutely your prerogative. But getting angry about it? That’s just kind of ridiculous. It’s like going to a Don Rickles show and getting upset that he insults people. That’s what he does, and why his audience enjoys him.

  • MarkP

    I think that this is an over-reaction, and the online petition (how typical, and how useless) is even more so.

    I mean, seriously, what Mr. Gunn wrote is pretty hilarious, if you take the
    entirety of his career into perspective. I find most of the comments here are
    reading this one post, and extrapolating from that, without taking into
    account that Gunn’s entire career has been about unsettling humor.
    That’s his gig, be it the Troma films, SLITHER, or SUPER.

    Granted, he trades in a VERY difficult form of humor, wherein you attempt to
    push things so far as to go past discomfort to laughter at the pure
    audacity of it all. You can turn off a HUGE swath of your audience, and
    I’m sure he accepts that, he probably also accepts that a large part of
    the audience will not understand his intentions at all. Will think that he’s serious about it.

    He’s not. I can assure you, based on his past work, but he also knows he may offend people. That’s the line he’s chosen to walk.

    Take Don Rickles. His gig, as a comedian, is to, flat-out, insult his audience. I can see being taken aback if you weren’t expecting that, but…it’s not like he hides that’s what he does. Neither does Gunn.

    If you’re offended, fair play, and you’ve learned something about this particular creative person. You can avoid his work in the future, and that’s absolutely your prerogative. But getting angry about it? That’s just kind of ridiculous. It’s like going to a Don Rickles show and getting upset that he insults people. That’s what he does, and why his audience enjoys him.

  • http://adornyourhearts.tumblr.com Xomyx

    And what great evidence do you have that it is satire? He removed it and tried to hide it, even he didn’t bother defending it. And even if it is, its a failure and you acknowledge that. Sorry, but I don’t think saying corrective rape is funny, is well, funny or morally defensible.

  • Knots

    Writing a piece that doesn’t share the views of the author is not irony. If that were the case then all stories that have conflicting POV would be ironic. Alanis Morrisette’s song would be ironic. For it to be ironic there must be an equally compelling counteracting force undermining it. The feelings he “didn’t actually have” must be present in the piece, not implicitly brought in through your assumptions. Simply slapping on Comic Book Guy’s voice after the fact is not, actually, part of his writing or indicative of satire.

    He could have tried situational irony. Ha ha you know those gross misogynistic viewers and their objectification of superheroes! …except it fails because a lot of the comic book reading audience would be taking it as sincere since they share those views.

    It could be verbal irony. Except his article did absolutely nothing to demonstrate the opposite of the literal fanboy discussion. He was parroting it. Disgustingly. Sarcasm HTML tags alone wouldn’t change the meaning.

    Guess the only thing left is dramatic irony when the audience knows what’s going on but the players themselves are completely in the dark! However, that actual use of satirical comeuppance would imply Swift is looking at us from beyond the grave, using this as an excuse to throw dirt on the GotG movie for using a talking raccoon instead of a far superior Houyhnhnm.

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    A lesbian simply would not write “I’m hoping…Tony Stark can turn her”. A lesbian would almost certainly mock the men who voted for her.

  • http://twitter.com/LadiesMaknComix Ladies Making Comics

    You’re missing my point. Lewis Black, as an actual target of Antisemitism, would write a much better and self-evidently satirical joke. Not only does he have the life experience and history to best turn Holocaust-denial inside out and on its head, he also has a responsibility to his fellow Jews, and he would put the thought and effort to make sure it was clear it was a joke.

  • MarkP

    I’m not the biggest fan, either (I should’ve pointed that out in my last post), but…humor is subjective. No two people will always find the same things funny, and if you try to be funny to everyone, you end up as milquetoast and pointless as Yakov Smirnoff.

    Some people dig Louis Black (who’s pretty damn abrasive and insulting), some people think Ted Nugent’s anti-Leftist spiel is hi-larious, and some people just can’t follow Eddie Izzard. There’s no accounting for taste, and your ability to control it begins, and ends, at yourself.

    The idea that the internet and/or world should, or will, conform to your
    personal morals of humor or taste is naive at one extreme, and a bit draconian at another.

    You have a simple, and effective response if you don’t like Gunn’s stuff. (I doubt even he would call it “progressive” or “inventive,” but most humor isn’t, otherwise why would The Three Stooges and I Love Lucy enjoy unending life in re-runs? There always has been, and will always be, an audience for lowest-common-denominator humor.) Don’t patronize his endeavors. If you’re that upset about it, don’t go see The Guardians of the Galaxy. Trust me, that will make more of an impression on Disney…I’m sorry, Marvel…than anything else. Thousands of “signatures” on a on-line petition are only going to say one thing in a boardroom…”there’s no such thing as bad press.”

  • Anonymous

    Nope, it wouldn’t be okay if a lesbian wrote the list.

    Whether or not a lesbian actually WOULD write that list– well, we haven’t seen one yet. Got any other straw men?

  • SlamAdams

    I am familiar with his work and sense of humor which is often extreme, crude, and satirical. This oversexualization of comic books specifically these distorted sexual fantasies resulted from comics books is an idea he has criticized previously. I am comfortable understanding him as an artist to look at the whole and come to that conclusion.

    As far as acknowledging that it is a failure, I am saying that this JOKE is NOT FUNNY in my subjective opinion. I am not saying this JOKE is NOT A JOKE. A bad joke is still a joke. If someone tells a knock knock joke and doesn’t get anyone to laugh its still a joke. If someone tells an offensive joke and doesn’t get a laugh, I don’t feel that they should become the poster boy for whatever you took offense too, especially when I find the joke to be completely misunderstood and misrepresented by this website and comment section getting the complete opposite reaction it was intended to have. That might very well be because he wrote it so poorly, but then the solution is to criticize him for writing poorly, not blacklisting him as a bigot and rapist-enabler when there is evidence that that is not the case. And its true that the ball is in his court as far as apologizing or explaining himself. Unfortunately, this comment section has already convicted him, and I don’t think anything he says could change most minds.

    I don’t believe in censorship especially when it comes to comedy. There is a butt to every joke, and we all get a turn.It is what clears us from laughing when someone else is made a butt of a joke. I am sure that every single commenter has laughed at a joke that was at someone’s expense. Even I have been offended by a joke before multiple times. It may not always be funny, but comedians should always be allowed to go there.

    But whatever I guess. Next week there will be another windmill for everyone here to chase.

  • Anonymous

    “I think that if” is not really a good argument.

  • Anonymous

    I’m still maintaining it’s satire, knowing Gunn’s other work this is right in line with his sense of humor. I’m with you on it not being funny.

  • Anonymous

    Gunns’ post is fan-fiction, in a way.

  • Anonymous

    You claim that someone can say offensive things and get a pass for it by claiming its satire. I’m saying that won’t work very well.

  • SlamAdams

    Its not a straw man argument. I’m not arguin anything. Its a legitmate question. Ladies Making Comics said it was ok for Jewish comedian to make fun of the Holocaust, so I was just wondering in her eyes if this would be different if a lesbian wrote it. Would it be more obvious a satire.

  • Anonymous

    “should not” care, huh? Who are you to tell people what they should and should not do?

  • SlamAdams

    Seems like a stretch. His is more commentary than actual narrative.

  • captaincanada

    I agree Dane. Luke Cage would be the one. No wearing a tiara while doing it though! Or maybe that would make sense.

  • SlamAdams

    That doesn’t answer my question. You said Lewis Black could make fun of the Holocaust because he is Jewish. If a lesbian wrote the same article, would you simply go “Oh, must be satire?”

  • Anonymous

    Wow. You are stepping past cluelessnss into outright abusive shithead-ism.

  • Anonymous

    That’s not what she said. She didn’t say “it would be okay”she said that he would approach the subject in a different manner.

  • SlamAdams

    How is he abusive? He is disagreeing

  • captaincanada

    I just had a new thought on this. How does someone sign a petition to remove a person from a well paying job and potentially hurting his career without talking to the person and hearing their side? Isn’t that like being a judge in Iran that doesn’t hear the defense’s side? What if he has a good response that makes you change your mind. People are too quick to sign petitions without thinking of the consequences that could happen to the person. Also what if he just made a mistake and admits it – does he still deserve to lose a job?

    On a related note – in the ultimate universe Peter’s clone is a female. If she liked females would she be straight or gay?

  • SlamAdams

    Thats what I’m asking “Would she approach the subject in a different manner if a lesbian wrote it?” Sorry if i wasn’t clear.

  • http://twitter.com/tartakacomic Ian Lambie

    I dunno, I’ve got to agree with him. There seems something kind of offensive about writing someone with a different accent to yours phonetically. Like you’re pronouncing everything the right way (so it’s all spelled correctly), while the person with the ‘accent’ is pronouncing it wrong.

  • Anonymous

    “not funny” is pretty much a fatal flaw in a humor attempt.

  • SlamAdams

    I highly doubt whatever Gunn has to say would change a single mind here. This section already has a verdict. He has used the evil buzzwords and now must suffer the consequences. Way to cause every rape ever, James Gunn

  • SlamAdams

    But a failed attempt at humor is not the same as being sincere

  • Anonymous

    A joke that isn’t funny is still intended to be a joke.

  • Anonymous

    If he has a good response, that would be a good thing for him. if he can’t come up with a good response then I question his intellectual acuity, and thus his fitness for the job.

    It’s interesting that you think a petition signed almost exclusively by women is important– but that the opinions of those women, that led them to sign it in the first place, aren’t important.

  • MarkP

    Because James Gunn is semi-famous, with a high-profile job coming up. Get the pitchforks, because if people went after “Ilikebooobs345643,” who posts this sort of thing in utter seriousness, on a weekly basis (y’know; the kind of guy he’s attempting to lampoon), nobody would care.

  • captaincanada

    I think the opinions of women are important – why would you think otherwise?

  • Marathon

    The movie is probably going to be micromanaged to high heavens anyway (regardless of any chosen director, that is), but whatever percentage of the auteur remains, I’d like it be someone with some genuine creativity, and not a hack of worn out antics. Comedy, almost any comedy, in general tends to be not funny (because life fucking isn’t funny lol), and Gunn’s (and his ilk) is the laziest, most arrogant form of it, requiring no effort or thinking whatsoever. It’s hack work. Not a good sign for a movie that requires clever surreal comedy instead of offensive ranting at the expense of already-suffering minorities.

    And let’s not forget the guy is over 40 and still makes these bizarre public lists/polls. Pretty sad and pathetic for a grown-up. He should check his mental health ASAP, me thinks.

  • Anonymous

    It’s not that the opinion isn’t valid or the fact that the petition was signed by women that’s the problem. The problem is the fact that it’s an internet petition that will do absolutely nothing and feels very passive aggressive.

  • Anonymous

    If Gunn chooses to offend people as you claim, then he can live with the consequences of offending them. You think he probably accepts that? Then you should, too.

    I have always avoided Don Rickles. I boycott the asshole. But Rickles isn’t slated to direct a film that I want to see. And if I do see it– i don’t want to be offended by the director’s sense of humor. I just want to watch a film about superheros.

  • SlamAdams

    Bingo

  • Anonymous

    Because you say that people (women actually) are too quick to sign petitions, and they don’t care about the consequences.

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    In a whole book maybe. But with dialogue there’s nothing wrong with throwing in a bit of phonetics – it adds character to … the character. It’s like getting offended over Wolverine saying something like, “Ya ain’t got nuthin’ on me.” It’s just the way he talks.

  • Anonymous

    Are you asking “What kind of joke would a lesbian make about rape?”

    Or are you asking “Would other women read a lesbian’s joke about rape and not castigate her for sounding like a clueless asshole?”

    The answer to both questions is; “it depends.” I have never read a lesbian joke about rape. I do know a few lesbians who are clueless assholes, because being a lesbian is orthogonal to any other human trait.

  • captaincanada

    I said people because I meant both men and women. And the more I think about it, the post was made on November 28th by Susana. How could people sign the petition the same day or even the next day to remove a director from his job/career without doing what I would say is due diligence. That is not a critique of women, more so of people (men and women) on the internet who don’t realize that what they do without full information may impact someone’s life in a negative way.

  • Anonymous

    live by the joke, die by the joke. Sorry. It’s happened plenty times before.. Comedians have failed careers. Sometimes after a successful one.

  • http://twitter.com/tartakacomic Ian Lambie

    “Offensive” was probably the wrong word to use. It’s more of a niggling thing than anything I can imagine anyone having an outcry about.

    I guess maybe if it’s specifically about the way one character speaks, rather than characterising the entire accent of a place as ‘spelled wrong’, it’s better?

  • MarkP

    I do accept it.

    Absolutely.

    I what don’t accept is that anyone has a veto on what anyone else can find funny, or not. What’s problematic for me is the idea that, just because you feel you want to see The Guardians of the Galaxy, you feel you have the right to dictate how it’s made. If you don’t like Gunn’s work, then don’t see the movie, period. End of story.

    Plus, Christ…have any of you people seen Shane Black’s movies? Half of that blog could’ve been dialogue from KISS KISS BANG BANG. Better opt out of IRON MAN 3, too.

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    As straight woman, I somehow am not repulsed by the thought of getting freaky with another woman. Lady bits don’t arouse me but they don’t repulse me either. That’s how not to be homophobic as a straight person =P

  • MarkP

    OK, hold on….

    A) Gunn didn’t rape anyone (which is what I assume you’re alluding to with “the man two apartments over”). He made jokes. Jokes that are intentionally in bad taste, I’ll grant you, and maybe ineffective, but that is not the same as rape. Not by a long shot.

    B) The vast majority of his fanbase is probably aware that he’s joking. Maybe some of them aren’t, I’ll grant, and maybe some of them are unstable enough to be dangerous, but that is not Gunn’s fault. Shall we put Jodie Foster on trial for attempted murder because John Hinkley shot Regan after watching TAXI DRIVER?

    I feel nothing but sorrow and compassion for your cousin, but, frankly, you’re exploiting her situation to “win” and online argument, and that’s pretty gross.

  • Anonymous

    he’s denying. As in, to take an example from up above, a holocaust denier would deny. he’s denying somehting that is common knowledge, and is experienced by thousands of women– to a woman. As a holocaust denier might deny to a Jew.

    Tell me, are you actually interested in the social issues inherent in this conversation? Wonder why women object to this shit and men try to defend it? Like, enough to want to educate yourself about them?

  • SlamAdams

    Yea, i think its shitty which is why I am arguing against.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    No, I’m pretty sure if you knew homasapiens, you’d know that they’d never actually hope for another human being to be hurt. See, it’s funny.

  • SlamAdams

    He is not denying that rape happens, he was denying that Gunn’s intention was to enable rape.

    I absolutely care! I care very deeply about equality and stopping sexual violence! I’m not defending sexual violence. I am defending James Gunn who I don’t think is the person that everyone here is describing him as.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    That doesn’t really excuse much.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Y’know, let’s just take those last three sentences and put ‘em in bold above the comment section.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    This is assuming an awful lot, especially given his previous work.

    I doubt he would put that much care into the joke, and I doubt he would care what people who are unfamiliar with his work think of him because of the joke… Which we can assume the same from Gunn up there.

    Still, that’s all hypothetical. The meat of the matter is, it shouldn’t matter who the person is telling the joke. If it’s alright for one person to say a joke but not alright for another based on race or sex, that’s racism and sexism in and of itself.

    People might not be fond of the joke, but as it is a joke, it shouldn’t be seen as reflective of the author’s views in any way, especially his penchant for dark and shock humor.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    What “environment?” Are you NEW?! The world, for one. Geek culture, for a definite other. Most every form of media out there. You do understand that this kind of attitude is something that women literally grow up with, in a background awareness?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Hypothetical situations are used in arguments all the time.

  • Anonymous

    number one, I cannot veto your sense of humor. You can continue to laugh at whatever strikes your funnybone, unhindered. Nor can I veto Gunn’s jokes. He didn’t have to pull his post off the internet, no power on earth could have forced him to if he really didn’t want to.

    Number two, it’s entirely possible that Gunn will make the movie no matter what women say– after all, *hundreds of thousands* of voices didn’t change the way the “the Last Airbender ” got cast. And I might see it or I might not. I didn’t see Airbender.

    Number three, pointing out that someone else’s films include shitty dialogue doesn’t excuse Gunn’s failed jokes–which are not dialogue in a film but his own voice.

  • SlamAdams

    I am asking “If a lesbian said it word for word would you take it differently?” because it was implied that a Holocaust joke from Lewis Black is different than the same joke from a non-Jewish comedian. If that is true, than that is too bad because funny is funny. But now the conversation as completely evolved into “what kind of joke would a lesbian make” (and of course all the responses are “a lesbian wouldn’t make that kind of joke so haha”) which was never what I was asking.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    Then why wasn’t he making fun of them? Why was he just saying exactly what they say?

    I’m not saying that it wasn’t “supposed to be satire.” I think we’re all saying that “But it’s SATIRE” isn’t a magic wand you can wave to make something not awful. Blazing Saddles was satire–it was mocking the attitudes of racism. It didn’t do that by exaggerating racist stereotypes; it did it by showing the people who held those attitudes to be morons. All Gunn did was exaggerate the stereotype (and throw in a lot of homophobic, somewhat rapey comments).

    If he were just some jerk on the internet, no one would care. But he’s a freaking WRITER. If this is his idea of “satire” then…he’s a BAD writer.

  • SlamAdams

    I think it excuses him from being sincere. Everyone is acting like he wrote this from the heart. I think he just fucked up a poorly conceived joke.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    That’s not true in the least.

    Saying “A Lesbian wouldn’t” is making an extremely broad assumption about every single lesbian in the world. Being a lesbian has no effect on one’s taste in humor, and Gunn mocked most of the people that voted for anyone already, including himself there.

    Saying that “No lesbian would ever make a rape joke” is just… bad. Hell, I personally know lesbians that make rape jokes, even ones that talk about “Turning” people.

    Now, you could say “It’s less likely that a lesbian would make a joke like that” but even that is assuming that someone’s sexuality would vastly change how one views humor, and jokes about fictional characters.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    I think the term for that is “But I’m a Vegan.” (As in, “I can’t be doing this social justice thing wrong, I’m part of THIS social justice thing!”)

  • Anonymous

    Well, some of us have lived a lifetime of due diligence. We’ve had “jokes” like these inflicted on us–physically and you have no idea how negatively. Women have lost jobs after being raped.

    Perhaps you need to read the comments at the petition site.

  • SlamAdams

    “Blazing Saddles was satire–it was mocking the attitudes of racism. It didn’t do that by exaggerating racist stereotypes; it did it by showing the people who held those attitudes to be morons. ”

    Don’t you see. That is what he was doing. He was playing the moron that thinks this way. You wouldn’t call the actors in Blazing Saddles racist because thats the part they were playing.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Someone writing their opinions on the internet, just like everyone else.

    If you (a hypothetical you, not you personally) get worked up about absolutely everything anyone says anywhere, ever, you’re just going to be mad and frustrated all the time. Talk Radio alone could fill your days with endless grief.

    This poll list was made a year and a half ago and likely has zero bearing on what the movie will be like, and it seems like a lot of the people here are pulling at strings trying to find something to get mad about.

    Getting angry about a few off-color jokes from a year ago when real and bigger problems exist in the industry is kind of a waste of time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/laura.truxillo Laura Truxillo

    How do you keep asking this question? Do you really not understand that that we hear that crap nearly VERBATIM from the first time we step into a comic shop or look into an internet forum?

    You keep asking the wrong question. If it’s satire, then Gunn, I suppose, is a successful troll, because his “lol, it’s funny” statements are far too close to ACTUAL things that we hear often.

  • Anonymous

    It’s called “facing up to the consequences.” It happens to all of us. If you live in the public eye, it will happen in public, which is what we are seeing here.

  • Anonymous

    wanna bet? The internet brought down the GOP this year.

  • Anonymous

    Watch and learn, grasshopper. Gunn isn’t a dummy. And as has been noted– he has a certain amount of feminist cred.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    See my reply to SlamAdams below.

  • Anonymous

    haha– entirely fictive commentary!

  • SlamAdams

    Facing up to the consequences of what? Writing a bad joke? Which is what happened. Or being the scum of Earth? Which is how this website is treating it.

  • captaincanada

    “Women have lost jobs after being raped” Huh? What does this have to do with batwoman and GotG movie?????

    So something terrible happens to a woman (losing a job and rape) and therefore it becomes okay to cause a director to lose his job? That sounds like logic the Green Goblin would use!!!!

  • Anonymous

    I am not sure you will appreciate this link, but it does describe a school of thought– which my lifetime of experience tends to corroborate;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

  • SlamAdams

    I know Gunn isn’t a dummy. I’m sure an apology will eventually come out.

  • Anonymous

    An internet petition didn’t.

  • http://twitter.com/theHezerkenezer Prince Ali

    It’s locker room humor…can you just leave it alone? Is he trying to impose something upon you. It’s between him and his audience. Get over it.

  • SlamAdams

    You’re right, it was literally fiction from a fan, but I was implying the actual storytelling ones than his personal musings.

  • MarkP

    I would posit that the petition, even the empty gesture of an online petition, is an attempt to veto. It’s an attempt to put someone into a position to lose work, because you (assuming you signed it) don’t like their sense of humor. That a blog that was written as a joke (failed or not) is grounds to impede a person’s livelihood.

  • Anonymous

    nobody is talking about who he is as a person, not really. What women here are talking about is the way his words mimic the words that lead to actual sexual violence. Joking or not. If you think women should be more calm about these jokes, then I suggest that you think about how personally you are identifying with the man. What we say about him, somehow, reflects on you, right? That’s what rape jokes feel like to anyone who has been raped or known someone who has been– or who has ever worried that they might be raped. Which is pretty much every. Single Woman. in the world. Ask your mother. Ask your sisters. Ask your friends.

    SOME LINKS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
    http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html
    http://bit.ly/aaCvLj
    http://lat.ms/NuulE0

  • Anonymous

    Okay. If a lesbian wrote that post word for word, i would be very angry.

  • Anonymous

    LOL! yes, some people are blaming him in personal and specifc ways.

  • Anonymous

    Too bad, well, okay. You can posit that. it’s your opinion.

  • Anonymous

    I know this stuff sounds awful and doesn’t make sense and you want to pretend it isn’t the way things happen. But really. Do a little bit of learning. below, you claimed that you want to learn more about feminism, why women are so serious about this. You are getting honest answers from me, without too much snark. In return, I expect you to stop reacting via your butthole.

  • Anonymous

    internet petitions were a vital tool in the effort.

  • Anonymous

    then stop worrying about him.

  • Anonymous

    Look at it this way; if someone steps on your foot, real real hard, and you yell OUCH!
    What do you expect from them?

  • Megan

    “There is literally no other director capable of getting this movie right.” I sincerely doubt that.

  • SlamAdams

    We must be reading different comments than because that is what I am seeing. Nothing that he has said reflects on me in the least. I would never say these things. I have time and time again said I don’t find them funny.

  • SlamAdams

    I’m sure you would. But I was never asking you, I was asking in context to someone else’s comment.

  • SlamAdams

    Was never worried. I was just discussing with everyone else

  • Anonymous

    Well, she actually answered your question– you didn’t like the answer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    ‘Quit yeling it’s just a joke! It didn’t actually break your foot! Nevermind that your toes now bend the wrong way..’

  • Anonymous

    You didn’t use a hypothetical situation. You pretended you could read his mind. At least before you edited your post into a completely different statement.

  • SlamAdams

    An apology. Which is not out of the question to ask from Gunn. But that has never been my problem. My problem is that people are acting as if he is stomping on their feet on purpose and running saying its ok to stomp on people’s feet.

  • SlamAdams

    She said a lesbian wouldn’t write that joke. My question was not “Would a lesbian write that joke?” so she didn’t answer the question.

  • Anonymous

    Now I’ll comment on your new improved argument; irrelevant in its entirety.

  • Anonymous

    You are seeing an attack on him personally because women are angry about rape jokes– and also, about seeing their superhero favorites described in chauvinist terms.

    Women are seeing a denial of the truths that they know intimately, and live with all the time, because men are telling them to get over it its only a joke.

  • Anonymous

    I think you need to reread the words she wrote, very attentively.

  • Anonymous

    What are you doing, trying to rewrite history? you’ve edited every stupid argument youve made– replacing them with equally stupid arguments only written with more weasel words.

  • MarkP

    Not to be rude, but you don’t know jack about what I can appreciate. I’ll just put it this way….men can be raped, too.

    I – IN NO WAY – tolerate violence, sexual or otherwise, and I have no sympathy for those who commit those acts. I also don’t blame society for the horrific acts of individuals.

    I’m firmly convinced, by my lifetime of experience, that when people have a lack of human feeling about hurting others, anything will provide an excuse to do so. Watching the news, or American Idol is just as likely to set that type of person off as reading this blog.

    To go back to my Jodie Foster analogy…it’s conclusive that John Hinkley watched TAXI DRIVER, and got lost in the violent fantasy. That’s one guy out of millions and millions of people who’ve seen that movie. I’ll even overestimate, and say that hundreds of unstable people (men and women) may have been inspired to less public acts of violence by that film (it’s depiction of loneliness and paranoia hits deep, and can be twisted), but that doesn’t change the fact that’s a powerful and positive work of art to the vast majority of it’s audience.

    Now, Gunn’s blog is a stupid joke, certainly (It’s no TAXI DRIVER). One that a fair amount of people can identify as such (failed or not). Should he be required to write, always, to the idea that somebody may take it wrong? Somebody may be cut off from reality enough to take it seriously? I say no. That way lies the whitewashing of culture.

    Even if we do say that this blog (or similar) is a primary factor, how many more people have read it in the last few days than in the 20 months prior? How many rapists have been created by all the attention drawn by the shaming of Gunn?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    What is this “We”?

    If you experienced that sort of thing then I’m sorry that happened to you, and if you think the posts strike a little too close to home to be considered funny, then that’s just the way the ball bounces. I still don’t think it’s worth getting this upset over.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Now you’ve got it!

    That’s the real problem here after all, people just don’t know Gunn and his works.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Who would you put in as director, who is capable of getting the over the top, bizzare, complex, and most of all funny story of GotG up on the big screen?

    James Gunn suits the book perfectly. I’d fear that putting another director on right now would bring us an extremely lackluster movie, all over a few bad jokes from over a year and a half ago. The last time a director was changed at the last minute, we got X-3, and we all know how bad that turned out to be.

    I suppose people who don’t know the characters and story involved wouldn’t understand or care as much as those who do. It’s gross at times, it’s bitter, it’s sad, it’s hilarious, it’s down to earth yet all in a strange, cosmic backdrop with strange characters put up against overwhelming odds. The guy who did Slither and Super? He’s made for this story.

  • Anonymous

    yes indeed, men can be raped. That’s so funny, it’s ALWAYS the very first thing men say after they’ve tried to shut down women talking about the prevalence of rape in women’s lives.

    And I know you didn’t actually read the link. I don’t blame you, who would want to?

    Should Gunn try to take into account the diversity of his audience when he writes? That would depend on what his aims are. If he would like to carry along a large female audience, then– just maybe– he might do well to think about how that audience might react. if he doesn’t care then he doesn’t care. Shrug.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, the tony stark comments have been noted. It falls into the homophobia part of the discussion, and mostly this has all been trying to explain to boys what rape culture might entail.

  • Anonymous

    Anger is a thing that is informational in itself, though, don’t you think?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Err, no, I’ve always used the terms “If Lewis Black did _____” and “I think that if ____”

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Just like everything else on this page.

  • Knots

    Blazing Saddles worked because it gave us characters we could sympathize with who became the viewers’ access for experiencing the bigotry in the film. You root for Bart and Jim against the institutionalized racism.

    When you write something espousing the villain/”moron who thinks this way” view and with no counteracting character or voice, no conflict except the readers’ own conception of the world, you have to be a lot more careful and a lot more savvy in executing it. Gunn wasn’t. The joke failed because he only showed an extreme and distasteful version of it. Not outrageous enough for “A Modest Proposal” and not self-aware enough for irony. And even if he intended it to be satire it’s not, it’s a failed joke that perpetuates a cyclical understanding of the thing he would (I hope) be mocking.

    Do I think he’s sincerely a bigot? No, probably not. Don’t know the guy. But he’s definitely no Mel Brooks. And people who want to call him out on his joke while holding up examples of superior humor are making good points on why the satire fails so terribly.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Nnnnnno, I think I’ve edited maybe two posts on here, and both of those were last night if I remember right, not today.

    I mean, I’ve argued quite a few different points on here. You might just be confusing one comment-thread in here for another.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Sorry, just saw this.

    That comment hasn’t been changed. At least, not on my screen. It still says “Sure, why not.” Maybe the browser is acting up?

  • Anonymous

    I think you need to find out what “censorship” actually means.

  • captaincanada

    I don’t pretend rape doesn’t happen. Why do you think you know how I think and what my thoughts are? Do you have professor X (or maybe more Emma Frost) type powers?!?

    I’m learning a great deal from someone who’s reply is “reacting via your butthole” …

  • Anonymous

    wanna bet?

  • Anonymous

    OMG that’s so sweet!

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    lol, WHAT?

    Yeah, the internet played a role, but “the internet” didn’t do that much. People using the internet did a thing, the same people that voted across the nation.

    The Vote was determined by a lot of things. Communication through the internet was one of them, but it was not the only thing.

    Honestly, the real reason Obama won was because of how the two were running their campaigns. Obama ran a much smarter campaign, to make a long, long story short.

  • Anonymous

    that kind of denial is ignorant, belittling, abusive.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Feminism is seeking equality for men and women. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    “AUGH YOU TOOK MY NOSE HOW COULD YOU!?”

    “Relax, see? It’s just my thumb, I didn’t actually take your nose.”

    “IT WAS INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MY REAL NOSE!!”

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    But that’s not true.

    He says that of an individual character in both cases, not all women, and nowhere did he insinuate the Tony Stark x Batwoman thing would be rape.

    Not to mention the entire thing was made in jest.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    So you don’t think anyone might find the comment about wonder woman fans wanting her to tie her lasso around their dicks and make them tell her the truth isn’t just a tiny bit ridiculous, and possibly poking fun at the fans of such?

    It’s dirty jokes, but they’re jokes.

  • captaincanada

    Okay my other question seemed to have gotten overlooked. I’ll repost it:

    In the ultimate universe Peter’s clone is a female version of him (spider-woman). If she liked females would she be straight or gay?

  • Anonymous

    yep. Sorry about the harsh words there. We already know that you know that rape happens. We are talking a little bit deeper here– or at least I think that’s what you want to do.

    You don’t understand why people can be SO ANGRY that they would sign a petition like this one? Women all up and down this comment thread have been trying to explain that to you.

    You worry that Gun will lose a job because he made a joke about rape. I am telling you that women have lost jobs BECAUSE they were raped. Because a woman was a victim of a specific, man-on-woman crime. because her workplace didn’t want to deal with the actual facts of that crime, the PTSD, and– sometimes– because the rapist also worked in the same job. And the company valued him and didn’t value her.

    Please, think more carefully about the actual words that I write, because I think pretty carefully about writing them. talking about this stuff? it isn’t really so much fun.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    It depends on how much of Peter is in the clone.

    If it’s straight up peter’s mind in the body, it could be considered straight, but if she considers herself a different person than peter and has a female identity towards herself she would most likely be considered gay (if she fell in love with another woman.)

    (Disregarding the idea of bisexuality for the purposes of the argument, of course.)

    I don’t read Ultimate, so I can’t say for sure.

  • Anonymous

    yes, if she identified as female, and she preferred women, she would be gay.

    Would you like to learn more about gender expression and sexuality?

  • Anonymous

    we cannot censor Gunn. We can only express our reaction to what he said. There have been plenty of threads here about whether or not he was joking, or being satirical, and about whether or not the joke was succesfull.

    And there has been a lot of discussion about something we call rape culture, and how that ties in with his post, and why women react so strongly to jokes of that nature– and why men don’t.
    Gunn himself– he can say what he wants. Warner Brothers however, has a financial goal and wants to make the biig buckks. They maybe can’t afford a clumsy comedian.

  • captaincanada

    You thought carefully about “reacting via your butthole”? I’d hate to see what you write if you weren’t careful!!!

    Anyways, I’ve re-read Gunn’s post – I never even thought that was about rape! That’s why I was so confused by you keep bringing up rape. I guess in your mind (see I am like prof X and can assume how you feel too) that shows how insensitive I am. Though in reality I just thought he meant Tony would seduce batwoman! Tony Stark is not rapist.

    Also it goes back to the old saying – two wrongs don’t make a right! Don’t hate on Gun (or overreact!) to make fair for something terrible that happened to another woman.

  • MarkP

    Personally, I think an artist should express themselves, and let their audience find them. To do otherwise is pandering.

    Also “diversity” is a loaded term. We’ve seen in this very string men AND women who think of this blog as satire and find it funny. The issue isn’t “diversity,” it’s taste.

    As to your comment about male rape…It’s interesting how quickly you dismiss someone with a rape experience if isn’t of your gender. I never said anything about the prevalence of rape for women, only that I have my own experiences. A statement that you, flat-out dismissed, one might even say mocked. Now, imagine if our sexes were reversed.

  • captaincanada

    No I was mostly curious if anyone would seriously answer a question regarding a clone.

  • Anonymous

    i didn’t mock male rape.
    I mocked a man who dismissed the conversation about women’s experiences in rape culture, and THEN brought up male rape.

    I did not read a flat statement that you have experienced rape. That’s horrible. I hope your attacker was brought to justice.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t really disagree with anyone who is offended by the blog post in question, but someone either on this site or another one made a pretty good point re: Shane Black, the director of Iron Man 3, and the content of his previous films.

  • Anonymous

    Google iron man 3 misogyny and you’ll see plenty of talk about it.

  • Anonymous

    I apologise, i see it now too!

  • Anonymous

    You’ll have to point something in particular out to me because i’m on the third page of that google search and nothing pertinent has come up.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Err, men and women alike react to various things differently. To blatantly state that all men feel X way about something while women feel Y way about something is sexist. Besides, he’s working for Marvel and Disney, not the WB.

  • MarkP

    No worries…I inferred, rather than stated definitively. It not something I like to openly discuss on the web. If you want to mock me for taking issue with comparing actually raping someone a writing a dirty joke, I suppose you can, but I, as an artist myself, think that comparison is offensive.

    Look, my intention is not to be a dick. This issue means a lot to me, but so does freedom of expression. I, personally, think comedy is at it’s best when it goes beyond a comfort zone. Be it George Bernard Shaw writing about social class in early 20th century London, Richard Pryor grappling with language, racial and outright sexist commentary, or Steve Martin letting his ego run wild. If it’s to your taste is a completely different question, up to each individual in the audience.

    Now, as I’ve stated I’m not a huge Gunn fan, but I do think that his intentions were not, at all, what has been heaped upon him in this thread. He may have failed in those intentions, depending on your taste, and you can be critical of that, but they still exist. I feel that some people here wish to deny that.

  • Anonymous

    huh, you’re right!
    Do you have a bog? Perhaps you’d like to start the conversation…};-)

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    That’s what I got from there too. Gunn never wrote that Tony would rape her, just that Tony might be able to seduce her.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Just like everything else on this page.

  • Anonymous

    Haha, I guess you were lying in your previous comment.

  • Anonymous

    No one can censor Gunn’s humor.

    (Although he evidently censored himself, but no one forced him to do that, either) No one can tell me I have to approve of it either– or prevent me from saying explicitly why I don’t like it, and if my reasons stem from a few other issues besides the art– those are my reasons.
    If, by some chance I am eloquent enough to make someone pause for a moment and feel a sense of creeping creepiness about his world view– that’s still not censorship. That’s communication, Censorship removes words from the world, that’s not what I am doing. I’m adding words– thousands of them evidently…

  • Anonymous

    I was assumptive. Which is a form of lying to myself, i guess.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Wow, now the page is acting up for me too…

    Must be too many comments.

    Anyways, yeah, I’d bet. I’m hopeful that this page’ll be ignored and we’ll have a great movie come 2014, one that puts everyone’s fears to rest and is judged on it’s own merits, not just a few jokes done in questionable taste from years previous.

    I’m hopeful that the movie will do well, because I love the Guardians of the Galaxy. Maybe we won’t see Moondragon and Phyla-Vell in the movie, which’ll be a damn shame, but we’ll still get Mantis and Gamora most likely, and given that Gunn is a huge fan of the 2008 run… Honestly, I imagine that the women that do show up in GOTG will be written well.

    If Gunn is taken off the project, we might wind up with something closer to Bendis’s upcoming version, where most of the cast is killed offscreen in the first issue if not before the first issue, and then we’ll never see Moondragon or Phyla-Vell in the movie.

    Seriously though… If you really want to see diversity in comic book films, Gunn is probably the only director that has a chance of including the most famous and best written gay couple in Marvel Comics. Anyone else… It’s much less likely.

    That’s part of what’s so painful about this. People are angry and want him off the project without even realizing that since he loves the project, and he loves the 2008 comic, he’d be the best chance there is for the project, for diversity, for everything. By taking him off the project they’ll just be doing the opposite of what they want; the GOTG movie will probably suck without him, if the movie sucks people won’t pick up the comics, if they don’t pick up the comics they won’t read about Moondragon and Phyla-Vell.

    If they don’t read about Moondragon and Phyla-Vell they’re likely to not be included in further versions of the team in newer comics (the 2013 team lacks them, notably) and… Damn.

    It’s better for fans of Gunn that he’s on the project, it’s better for people who support this website’s ideals that Gunn is on the project, it’s better for… everyone involved. There is absolutely nobody Marvel can hire right now that can do as good a job as him to translate the story of the 2008 GOTG and the thanos imperative to the big screen… and if Gunn was really misogynistic and anti-gay, I doubt he’d be this excited to work on GOTG.

  • MarkP

    Of course not. You have the right to any reaction that is inspired, and to discuss and comment on that.

    However, I think some of the statements made here have gone beyond that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    A woman who liked women would be gay no matter whose genetic material created her.

  • captaincanada

    That makes sense to me. Thank you!

    Related to the above, does a clone have a soul?

  • Katie Marinelli

    Haha I saw that but was in the mist of being to horrified at everything else to remember to point that out.

  • Anonymous

    Hmm. I sure hope he fine-tunes his satire from now on. Because that people are angry thing… it’s a real thing.

    I’m not ignoring your reasoning. But there is a climate of deep and sincere , non-ironic anger amongst certain groups of people. Quotes like these;
    http://brainwrap.com/various/gop_rape_advisory_single_column.gif
    have only strengthened and deepened the anger– and added more people to the list. When it gets triggered — it’s got to be addressed. if you want to have a full commercial success, at least.

    Don’t ignore the anger. The anger is it’s own message.

  • Anonymous

    “Sometimes, women are qualitatively less attractive because they have sex with people!”

    I read the Black Canary bit as clearly a comment on her (in his view) poor choice of partners, not the fact that she has sex.

    Actually, most of these entries seem rather enthusiastically in favor of women being sexy and having sex, even it’s expressed in a frat-boyish sort of way. Lots of messed up stuff in here, but I just am not seeing the slut-shaming – and I worry that label’s getting slapped on everything these days and losing meaning.

  • freshtendril

    Oh give me a goddamn break. THEY’RE MAKE BELIEVE CHARACTERS. What do you expect? He isn’t crucifying the first lady, President, or Dalai Lama. Have you seen the Saturday Night Live sketch the Ambiguously Gay Duo? God, you people have no sens of humor. Comic book nerds. Jeeze. Make fun of something dear to them its as if you had defiled the cross. The previous statement is contradictory in itself thanks to Nazi villains like the Red Skull worshipped well in you’re circles.

  • Melissa Morse

    I’m not offended by his list….and it seems pretty obvious to me…if you go actually read it all that it is jokes. Also the image of him as this big woman hater is pretty dumb since some of his descriptions are clearly poking fun at the limited way women are shown in comics. ex:

    13. Zatanna

    I love how, over at Marvel, they try
    to make their Sorcerer Supreme as realistic as possible, by having him
    recite hundreds of complex spells from dozens of fictional arcane texts
    but, over at DC, with their sorceress-in-residence, they’re just like:
    She says shit backwards! Oh, and she wears a top hat. Whatever the
    case, guess what, Zatanna? Won uoy od mir sboj.

  • Anonymous

    that’s because you are discounting those other reasons people have for not liking something.
    For context;
    http://brainwrap.com/various/gop_rape_advisory_single_column.gif
    This illustrates pretty much the final nail in the GOP Coffin. These are real quotes, from real men who really think these are reasonable things to say. Republican women left to party in droves. And it’s really fresh in our minds that WE WON.
    Call it PTSD. There’s a huge amount of that going around.

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    have you really?

  • Anonymous

    Come off it you wankers.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Right, and everyone has every reason to be mad at shit like that, even mad at bad jokes, it’s just… I don’t think a lot of people here understand the consequences of taking him off the project. It could kill the movie and killing the movie would hurt the supporting cast of GOTG which would shove two of the most well-known lesbian heroines way back into the background once more. Gunn MIGHT just include them in the movie, but regardless, if the movie is super popular? The team might get their own cartoon, and that for sure would have Moondragon and Phyla-Vell in it.

    It’s just… if people really throw a huge stink over this, and actually manage to take him off the project, it’ll hurt everyone involved more than it’ll help. I’m sure someone here that’s never heard of the characters before will say it’s worth it to get some “slut-shaming asshole” off a comic book project but… just… damn. I think I’m pretty much done here. I don’t know how much more I can take.

    This… movie would do a huge, huge amount of good for everything, EVERYTHING comic book if it does well. Not just the GLBT community, not just fans of the series, just… The movie would prove that riskier comic book projects can work, the movie would prove that even new characters, not just legacy characters, can get super popular, the movie would prove that any story can be adapted to the big screen, not just the more grounded and serious ones, the movie… So much good could come from this movie it’s scary.

    And to see so many people worked up over a few bad jokes from more than a year and a half ago… the idea that a few bad jokes from a year and a half ago could kill all of that before it even starts? The idea of that is heartbreaking.

    So yeah. Hopefully it’s all under the rug. It will be better for absolutely everyone if it is.

  • Anonymous

    You are still not listening. You need to link the quotes I just gave you together with the reaction towards Gunn’s blog.

    I appreciate your reasons. You sound more logical now than you did last night. But you severely misjudge how angry people are, and how hard it will be to calm people down. And you really have no idea of how easy it will be to replace Gunn with another. equally GLBT/minority/feminist-friendly geek movie director.

    A dime a dozen, dude.

    Women, some of them. who would give one thousand percent effort if they get the chance to.

  • Katie Marinelli

    Have you ‘decoded’ his spell?

  • http://twitter.com/George_________ George Caltsoudas

    But there’s nothing offensive about that highlighted Batgirl post. He’s simply criticising things that other comic book writers have done in bad taste, like — for example — when Tony Stark “cured” a female superhero (Spiderwman? Can’t remember) of her lesbianism.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Uh, no, it’s still gross.

  • http://twitter.com/George_________ George Caltsoudas

    So far I’ve read from no.1 down to 22. Spider-Man. I haven’t detected anything sick, offensive, or wrong in his posts. What’s all the uproar about?

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    I disagree with you there. It’ll be really hard to replace Gunn, especially for this particular movie. I’m hoping it’ll all go smoothly. There’s not enough directors out there with the chops in superhero films and a love of both the genre and the story, male or female. If it were that easy, I wouldn’t be worried. Gunn is absolutely the best person for the job.

    I also don’t think enough people are mad. Even if they are, hopefully an apology arrives and smoothes that over.

    We’ll see what happens.

  • Anonymous

    Haha okay! It’s been a treat to watch your emotional and logical contortions between last night and now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-Sanders/690069501 Greg Sanders

    Reading comments here, this is clearly a witch hunt now. So, let’s get this straight, this kind of thing is something only a straight man would post, and he must absolutely be sincere, there is no room for consideration that this was a poor attempt at humor. No, I did not find it funny, but I honestly, truthfully, thought it was a parody of those ridiculous ratings that IGN holds. And, I’m sorry, but women have found it entertaining, even my homosexual associates. Comic book fans have been grouping together all day for this, as GOTG is our movie at my local shop. But we can swap, “I know people who did/didn’t find it funny” all day, it still wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans. Listen, if you can prove this was done with hateful intent, go for it. But, please, have a reality check. All of you are acting like ignorant fools. Only jews can make jewish jokes, seriously? All of you are morons, then, and incredibly isolated and sexist in your own rights.

  • Anonymous

    This is not the first time I’ve seen this kind of derisive, deliberate misinterpretations on this site to paint someone as a misogynist or homophobe. He was clearly making a joke about her choice of partner, not making a serious statement about not wanting to have sex with a woman who isn’t a virgin. Should I believe that the author is too stupid to have understood the joke or is deliberately misrepresenting it dishonestly? I’d like the author to let me know.

  • Anonymous

    Nope. Neither do you. That was easy.

  • Anonymous

    “I just want to watch a film about superheros [sic]”

    Well, you’re in luck: there are plenty of those! Maybe you should avoid any by Gunn until you can afford to purchase a sense of humor.

  • http://twitter.com/MomJokes Mother Joker

    Feminists, and the author of this post, are officially absurd. Please calm down, this is why no one takes you seriously. James Gunn is just weird and funny. The thought of trying to get him fired is so laughably dumb, well… I have no RESPECT for crying emo whiny babies. GOOD DAY! Oh, and your mom looks like a wookiee.

  • Anonymous

    yep, that’s what the discussion is all about.

  • Anonymous

    It’s big of you to admit that you’re a lying troll.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think this discussion is about your tragic humorlessness. Unless you wrote the article, of course.

  • Anonymous

    What an odd thing to say.

  • Anonymous

    This article, by Meredith Borders, is a perfectly reasoned response to this one. I encourage anyone, whether they agree with this author or not, to read it. Honestly, you’ll be glad you did.

    http://badassdigest.com/2012/11/29/borders-line-on-james-gunn-satire-and-sexism/

  • http://www.facebook.com/winter.crawley Dara Crawley

    I don’t think he should be fired, but his comments are juvenile misogynistic, homophobic, and out right stupid.

    I think we should all question how he plans to present female or gay characters. I don’t think Moondragon is supposed to be part of the lineup but I would have serious concerns over his ability to present female and non-hetero characters as fully realized people.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think there’s any reason to wonder how he presents gay or female characters. Try watching his movies, which you obviously have not done.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Kirstin.Heibel.Steitz Kirstikins Steitzipants

    Get it, girl.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Likewise.

  • http://www.facebook.com/matthewrose10 Matthew Radway

    For what it’s worth, and I acknowledge that it’s somewhere between little and nothing, my opinion is that it was an incredibly tasteless, stupid thing to write. However, knowing James Gunn’s style I do genuinely believe that it was a terrible, useless piece of satire that massively backfired. Should he apologise? Yes, and he has. Should he lose his job directing a movie? No. Everyone makes stupid mistakes and unfortunately he has made one in a big public way but the way for him to atone for them isn’t by not directing a movie. It’s by facing up to them, apologising and learning how to improve his behaviour for the future. Anyway, that’s my two cents. Feel free to disagree :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-Sanders/690069501 Greg Sanders

    http://www.newsarama.com/film/james-gunn-guardians-of-the-galaxy-apology.html -James Gunn has issued an apology for his remarks.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    And I’d love to be proven wrong; nothing would please me more than to see he’s issued a heartfelt apology and retraction of the article, and to be able to say in return that he is a good person and not a sexist dipshit.

    However… as yet, still waiting.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ammie-Hisaka/100001798512605 Ammie Hisaka

    Who the flying fuck is Shane Black and why should we care?

  • Penny Sautereau-Fife

    In the comics? No. All available evidence says she will likely be in the MOVIE though, and move on to Avengers 2.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=68601884 Stephen Hale

    I just read Gunn’s post, and he doesn’t say he’s sick to his stomach at the idea of having gay sex with the guy, but at the idea of being in a 3-way with him and Gunn’s girlfriend. Kind of undermines your point, there.

    I was pretty sympathetic to this author’s point, until I noticed things like this…if you have to ignore Gunn’s point to be angry with him…

  • Sam

    I don’t see anyone else who’s posted this yet, and it seems pretty relevant.
    https://www.facebook.com/jgunn/posts/10151266978619570?notif_t=like

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=68601884 Stephen Hale

    I’m with you. I read the post here (at Mary Sue) first, and was horrified at Gunn. Then I read Gunn’s post. It quickly became clear to me that the post here twisted most of what he said a great deal.

    Like, “I’m surprised these folks didn’t participate in our last presidential election” twisted.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=68601884 Stephen Hale

    I don’t see how this is a response to Freshtendril’s comment…

  • Anonymous

    Just a movie dude, fighting bigotry is just a little bit more important I think

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1219711563 Desi Woods

    Exactly! I just read over some of James Gunn’s Facebook and Twitter page for the first time today and he’s a pretty stand up guy. He’s also gone out of his was to speak up for Gay Marriage consistently and this was way before this topic came up. So people do some research before banding a random witch hunt. He has made a formal apology for those too butthurt to walk never the less. And if that isn’t good enough then screw it. Have him hire “Eminem” to play a part in the film then and watch their petitions turn to crap.

  • Anonymous

    He’s made an apology. ://www.newsarama.com/film/james-gunn-guardians-of-the-galaxy-apology.html

  • Anonymous

    Um. because despite freshtendril’s assertion that these comments only refer to comic book characters, they have been –discovered, as it were– at the end of an ugly and vicious election session that featured comments made by men in places of political power towards women– in many cases women who had voted for them.

    Although this set of quotes focus on rape, and admittedly Gunn made only one rape joke in his post, I can give you sets of comments about the worth of women being solely contingent on their fuckability, I can give you lists of comments about how single mothers are responsible for the downfall of the nation, about how some women will never have to worry about being raped because they are just too ugly– and then we can start the lists about gay men and women.

    Every single thing Gunn said about comic characters has been said about flesh and blood women. Often. Repeatedly. By men who DO try to impose those words on women and GLBT.

    I’m not going to debate about his possible motive, maybe he was trying to be funny and simply misjudged how bad it was going to get. But if anyone wonders why people are angry about “comic book characters” — that is one of the reasons why.
    As to whether or not we are justified in our anger? That would be the wrong question. That anger, and I know many men who are oblivious to this, That anger lost the GOP a full third of its voting block, namely more than half the women who for some insane reason were still loyal. A blatant and arrogant display of sexism lost the popular vote for the GOP.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1219711563 Desi Woods

    Well what’s even more interesting is that none of these complainers were willing to do a little more research on the guy before declaring him the new Mel Gibson. It’s random witch hunts like these the turn off the public when it really matters. So I suggest learning how to pick your battles. #buildabridgeandgetoverit!

  • Anonymous

    That’s been amply covered all ready. Some people agree with you, some people say they don’t care how speshul a snowflake the guy is, he needs to address the issue.

    …first time I’ve seen hash tags in a forum post. #hussiewillbesoproud!

  • Anonymous

    I’m sorry that I wasn’t more clear the first time. Yes, I do know that. What I was trying to communicate is that men hear those types of comments on the street from women, but women aren’t as likely to be looked down on for saying them. About Taylor Lautner, I was pointing out the double standard of women in real life not being as harshly judged as men typically are in similar situations (the situation being that Taylor wasn’t an adult yet and older women weren’t exactly quiet about having swooned). And this wasn’t specifically about Gunn, just our society in general. And I’d like to think that those defenses you mentioned aren’t necessarily non-compatible. Comments can be satire and subjected to a double standard at the same time.

  • http://twitter.com/PeterJohnson83 Peter Johnson

    Just because you don’t have any sense of humor, don’t assume that no one else does. There was nothing in that blog post that I found remotely offensive. You are just trying to push your agenda and get hits on your own site…that is unless you are really that dumb??

  • Anonymous

    can we update this with James Gunn’s statement on Facebook? or have another separate article?

  • Anonymous

    Welcome to “badly executed satire which only personal acquaintances of the author could possibly understand therefore coming off as the real thing” satire. You know, that whole “I’m not Racist, but let me tell you something…”

  • Anonymous

    If one has to apologize a joke or satire, one is not funny or talented.

  • Anonymous

    What I gathered from your post. 1-The LGBT should move on so you can have a good movie. 2-Gunn is the only director that has a chance of including the most famous and best written gay couple in Marvel Comics…there are no other better qualified Directors in Hollywood? I’m sorry, that’s a dilution. 3-It will suck without him? We don’t know that for sure do we? 4-You assume he took the job for love, not money? People will do anything for a paycheck, including retract on their views…like this guy.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_PR4RC3AFFRK5UU7CYXJ3DYEZ24 JayG

    Freedom isn’t always comfortable. Especially when the 1st amendment is
    involved. Get a friggin’ helmet or move to the Middle East, where
    everything you say can be held against you.

  • Anonymous

    I completely agree with you.

    What troubles me even further is that he’s basically being James Gunn, and not becoming an overt satire character, it’s almost like he got drunk and all his inhibition went out the window. How about some jokes, any, like “In Space no one hear me die a happy person from having making out with a great super hero” which could be tied to a character who can exist in outer space. There was none of those inside jokes that ware funny. There were hardly any jokes, so all we got was hatred…which is why people are angry.

  • Anonymous

    “I also don’t think enough people are mad”, so you’re saying that makes it okay? If a minority is angry it’s no big deal? Dude, that is just horrible.

  • Anonymous

    A) The fact he didn’t rape anyone gives him a free card to joke about it? That’s like saying he didn’t kill any Jews and it’s okay for him to be an anti-semite. There are several male Politicians who commented on Rape, and they were reprehended for it. Making horrible jokes, even if they are “intentionally in bad taste”…and saying people shouldn’t be offended is arrogant and even more offensive given they failed the main objective: be an joke.

    B) I’m sorry, but it is his fault. He was the writer and failed to convey a sense of context in which he didn’t come off like a jerk. Yeah, it’s his fault.

  • Anonymous

    However, the audience he was addressing were both DC and Marvel Fans, companies which he has not created. If you said this was addressed to his fans, he should have used his own characters, but the fact he used language only his fanbase would presumably understand as ‘satirical’ is pandering.

    If you have a diverse taste, you have the ability to empathize with other’s feelings. If you’re into the “White male man-child fanboy middle of the road bro code America for ‘mericans” way…diversity can be such a burden loaded word.

  • Homor

    After reading the comment section here, i decided i no longer want to live on the same planet as you people.

    See you in space, fuckos! WOOOOSH!

  • Anonymous

    Dude, if you have to apologize for a joke, you have failed as a comedian. That’s what James Gunn apologists don’t get, that he is not funny because the majority of people did not find this funny. And if you have to explain a joke, albeit it “his fans would know it is a joke”, then it is not a joke.

    Also, there is hardly any material to defend. He could have joked about “if I kiss Miss Marvel in space I hope no Gamma rays deform me when I just me the woman of my dreams” or “kissing Aquaman underwater might be a problem since I can’t breathe H20″ or something like that. Heck, even pushing the envelope might be welcomed if it is funny “Making out with Wolverine would suit best prior to Weapon X, given that Adamantium skeleton would hurt in the bedroom”. See, those are jokes that people can tolerate, because they have context.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=513877109 Samantha Wilson

    I haven’t read much of the commentary, but when it first came up I read the post. I think it was very obviously satire/sarcasm. It seems to me to be an exaggeration or spoof of what the comics books do to their characters and a dig at some of the misogynists that read them.

    That Batwoman post is clearly a dig at Marvel and DC who I think would actually do that sort of plot – I genuinely don’t get why anyone thought it was serious. And I don’t know anything about the author, so I wouldn’t know about his style or views outside of this list.

    Maybe I’m just used to reading sarcastic media that agrees with feminism and other minority rights.

  • Anonymous

    “for a lot of people, however, including women, it is pretty funny” The evidence points to more women being against this, and simply because you can find women who find it funny doesn’t mean you can say to those who don’t “move on, see THESE women like it therefore it’s not sexist”.

    I didn’t have to ‘actively seek out’ this blog, it was brought up to me. And this is a disgusting piece of vile diatribe hidden behind a sheer thin veil of “humor” of which I find no trace because there are no jokes. Just a bunch juvenile, hateful, misogynistic, homophone hate speech. If he’s such a great Writer and Director, why did he fail so shitty to convey this as satire? Because talent was not present, if you have to explain a joke…it ain’t funny.

  • Anonymous

    I could start a sentence with “I’m not racist but…” and then proceed to a 2 hour monologue ripping apart a certain minority without good context given I already mentioned I was not a racist. However, actions speak for themselves. If he’s so talented, if he’s pro LGBT he would have used inside jokes derived from that community not dry attacks against it. I lived in San Francisco, and the Castro district is home of this community, had he been a clever writer he could have made a joke “Put that Cuban Cigar out, this hero is too hot, even for Castro” (Double pun). See, that’s an inside joke, not a joke at the expense of hate speech upon this culture.

  • #wow #whoa

    Wow. Harassing a dude for some stupid shit he wrote on a blog a year ago that was pretty damn tame. You guys are fuckin fascists.

  • Anonymous

    Just because he says some very stupid things and seems like a huge jerk doesn’t mean he’s going to make a bad film or should be pulled from making this film. If the entertainment industry kicked out every jerk there would be very few people left.
    I’m sure everyone has said or done something stupid that they may or may not regret. No one is innocent in that and I don’t think it’s right to demand someone’s job over poor taste.

    As for a boycott, good luck with that.

    Most of the viewing public could care less who’s making the film or what he’s said on a web site that is easily manipulated to serve an agenda. (Not in this particular case but check out the immature Lobdell nonsense going on). You have a large group of readers that either won’t care or just chalk it up to internet drama. This will be the same the majority of the viewing public that will see the movie never read comics.

    That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be mad or have your say, you completely should and maybe even get some sort of apology or explanation. But I think if you are hoping for him to be fired or that a boycott will be successful then your in for some further disappointment.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jesse.bailey.773 Jesse Bailey

    FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO DISCUSS PRINCIPLES: These jokes are incredibly sleazy and tasteless. They make him sound like a juvenile idiot. Do we want to live in a world in which *everyone* who makes juvenile, tasteless jokes gets boycotted? I hope not (if so, fine, stop reading). If not, then can we try and figure out a *principle* on which to decide which juvenile, tasteless jokes should warrant a boycott and which warrant a roll of the eyes? I have been in several situations in which “all that lesbian needs is a good hard dick” is *hilarious*. 100% of the time it has been said in satire either *by* a lesbian or *to* one by a clear, unambiguous ally in “private” speech. Maybe that is a place to start. That joke is dangerous in some contexts, with some intents behind it, and it is hilariously transgressive as satire in others. (Perhaps we should distinguish “intent” and “context”?) Edidin makes the following claim: “In other words: I don’t know if that post was intended seriously or not,
    but I’m also not sure it matters all that much. When you’re speaking
    from a public platform, intentions only go so far” So, the *intent* which seems to trump other factors in private speech is trumped by *context* (the series of tubes in which we currently are) – and thus, on this new medium for which we have yet to develop a tolerable standard of decorum, intent does not save a tasteless, satirical joke, as it does, without question (seriously, without question) in private speech. I am not sure I want to live in that internet world. . . there are just too many people to offend, and not every instance of a person being offended is valid (I am NOT saying this one isn’t, so, yeah). On to gay jokes: This one is hard as well, and perhaps more difficult than the previous, because of the ubiquity of gay jokes. So, setting aside the seeming impossibility of boycotting anyone who ever made a gay joke or called something gay (The Simpsons still have the satire crown on the ridiculousness of the thigns that get so denigrated) – do we *want* to get rid of all gay jokes? At least until gay teen suicide rates go down, I would say “Yes.” Maybe that is another basis for a principle: Jokes cross the line not when people’s feeligns are hurt (Stephen Fry *might* be right about that), but when they play on situations/attitudes in which people get ‘killed with sticks.’ (No offense, but I am not interested in responding to personal attacks, so don’t bother – please only reply if you think this is a valid line of questioning. If not, radio silence will suffice.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jesse.bailey.773 Jesse Bailey

    What if seeing those films gave you a sense of context that proved these were satirical comments? It is still a stupid, juvenile joke, but now with a context provided by his earlier work, twitter feeds, and blog entries that erased any question of intent, and proved him an ally? (I am not saying that it does, but *what if*?) Perhaps we as commenters don’t have this obligation, but I feel that Polo should have tried a bit harder to provide (and then, if valid, dismiss) the context provided by his work. This is from one strong, intelligent feminist’s defense of Gunn: “Having followed Gunn on Twitter, his blog
    and through his cinematic career for years, I never doubted his intent.
    His farcical, outrage-inducing humor has been prevalent in his work
    since his Troma days, and particularly in the gem Tromeo and Juliet.
    But Gunn’s also written some of my favorite female genre characters.
    I’ve long said it’s no easy task being a feminist who loves horror
    movies, but Gunn’s Slither, one of my favorite films and a passion project of his, made it easy. Ana in Dawn of the Dead, Starla and Kylie in Slither, Libby in Super, hell, even his versions of Daphne and Velma in Scooby-Doo:
    these are complex, strong, intelligent characters, the kind of female
    characters that should be the standard in genre films but still aren’t.”

  • http://twitter.com/GeekFurious GeekFurious

    I haven’t taken anything James Gunn says seriously since 1996. The guy just likes to say outrageous things to get the biggest shock response from anyone listening/reading.

    I don’t know if he believes what he says, but I have strong doubts. Is it offensive? Hell yes. Is it enough for me to boycott his movie? Hell no. I wasn’t going to see it anyway.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jesse.bailey.773 Jesse Bailey

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/guardians-galaxy-director-james-gunn-395796

    Is anyone on here still calling for a boycott after this apology?

  • http://twitter.com/VeryNotReally Shelly H

    Joss Whedon does not have a FaceBook account.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    So why isn’t this article being updated with the apology he posted?

  • Guest

    No, the petition was taken down.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    The petition to have him removed was taken down.

  • http://twitter.com/VeryNotReally Shelly H

    *slaps forehead*

    I’m not saying any of this was funny, but those of you who keep saying, “it can’t be satire because it’s too real!” need to take a step back. Many of you have decided to read it as if because he wrote these words, he actually believes them. He was obviously (to me and many others) playing a character in the post, the character of the stupid sexist fanboy. It’s become Poe’s Law. But the above example makes it clear he’s making the joke on fanboys. The character he’s writing as is homophobic, yet strongly fixates sexually on a male character.

    The humor, whether one finds his post funny or not, was supposed to be laughing at the stupid sexist fanboy, cringing at how some people talk about gays and women.

    And I’m not saying, “it’s a joke get over it!” But I am saying take a breath and a step back and consider that this *was* meant as a joke and that he was targeting the very behaviors and attitudes in fanboy culture that are horrific.

  • http://twitter.com/VeryNotReally Shelly H

    This site is such an echo chamber. It’s hard to read posts and replies here — the hyperbole alone gives me a rash. So many got caught up “burn the witch!” that they didn’t take time to look for the context or learn more about the person they want to burn. In a world with politicians who think pregnancy can’t result from “legitimate” rape, there are much more important targets than a guy who posted ill-advised and unfunny satire.

    I’m a fan of Gunn’s. Not a huge fan, but still, I like his work and follow him on various social networks. The guy can be impulsive and say stupid things in attempts to be funny, and his humor (which is dark and often inappropriate) doesn’t always hit. He can be very lowbrow and juvenile, but he’s also extremely honest and forthcoming about himself and his personal struggles (for instance he’s talked about his depression). And he’s self-aware enough to know he puts his foot in it sometimes. If he’s truly out of line and called out on it, he apologizes. In all his genuine posts where he seems more “James Gunn” rather than “STUPID GUY SAYING STUPID THINGS HAHAHA!”, he’s kind and thoughtful and respectful. I’ve followed him on social networks for a couple of years now, and it seems like he’s learning he doesn’t need to put up that persona to either make people laugh or push them away. Or at least I guess he’s learning that because the vast majority of his posts now seem more sincere and he reaches for the bottom-barrel humor far less.

    Call him out if you must, but don’t burn an potential ally at the stake. He made a mistake. He took the post down. He apologized and said he regretted it. Allow him to learn from this. You have to allow people their mistakes. Speaking thoughtlessly and making unfunny jokes doesn’t make someone a homophobe or misogynist; actually hating gays and women does. Know the difference between someone who can learn from his mistakes and the actual enemy, don’t just hit at some soft target because it’s the latest online rageparty.

  • Galena Ostipow

    That’s actually a good point…might have me reconsider how I viewed the movie. (I’ll still think it’s disturbing though.)

  • http://twitter.com/Super_Widget Joanna

    See, I think Rogue’s dialogue is just written the way she speaks and the reader puts in the accent themselves. I often read many of Terry Pratchett’s characters with a cockney accent even though the phonetics are not literally written that way. It’s just the way the characters speak. The readers fill in the rest.

  • http://www.commonplacebook.com electrasteph

    Therein lies the danger of poorly written satire; if part of understanding it requires your audience to know you well and be familiar with your whole body of work to get it, then you’d best stay away from controversial topics, or make sure your only audience is people who have that much context about you, not a larger web presence. Or just provide better clues that what you’re writing is satire and not intended to be taken seriously.

    You’re asking me to educate myself on his entire body of work before deciding. I don’t have the time to do that, nor do I have the responsibility. I’m allowed to come to a conclusion about people based on this much information and decide whether to see his work or not. There’s a lot of brilliant work out there for me to enjoy; I’m not going to be sad if I miss his work in favor of someone who doesn’t make tone-deaf jokes.

  • Adam R. Charpentier
  • MarkP

    Diversity…Hmm….Let’s see what Merriam-Webster has to say:

    “the condition of having or being composed of differing elements : variety; especially : the inclusion of different types of people (as people of different races or cultures) in a group or organization”

    I love how “diversity” gets thrown around like it’s a one-way street. Diversity means many ideas, many feelings, many experiences. It does NOT mean “nothing will, or should, ever offend me.” In fact, it could be said that it’s exactly the opposite.

    What you’re saying is pretty close to a Tea Party-esque “I don’t agree with you, therefore you are evil and the enemy, and should not speak” thought process. Also reflected in your comment about the “majority” being offended by his joke…and you arrived at that how? This message board? A fairly skewed group to base that on. It’s a falsity; based on your feeling, not fact (another Tea Party tactic). On top of that, it’s absolutely irrelevant if a “majority” are offended by it.

    I am not apologizing for him. I’m saying he has every right to offend you, and you have every right to not read his stuff, or not patronize his work. That’s different from this virtual lynch mob that’s now out gunning for him.

  • Anonymous

    An apology that acknowledges and validates the criticisms most of the commenters on this blog have made, imagine that!

    It’s almost like fanboi horde that descended upon us with cries of “Satire!!!” were talking out their ass all along.

  • Adam R. Charpentier

    Mmmaybe. This whole time, I’ve acknowledged that it’s PROBABLY meant to be humorous, but was made poorly, in bad taste, and isn’t funny to anyone that isn’t an asshole, and whether it was meant to be funny doesn’t invalidate the complaints that have been made…

    And he seems to acknowledge that fact. He says that time has passed, he has changed, he is always learning, he no longer finds it funny, he finds it upsetting, and that in the future he will try to be funnier, perhaps, acknowledging that he has a shitty sense of humor.

  • Arbite

    Uhhhh. He seems to have been making fun of THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED IN THE POLL “Ok wow, a lot of the straight guys in this poll voted they wanted to fuck the lesbian, allow me to try and ‘roleplay’ (For lack of a better term)as one of them and point out how creepy that shit is”. And making an extra joke that fucking Nightwing doesn’t count against your sexual identity because it’s assumed he’s fucked everyone in the DC universe and therefore is just a given.

  • Arbite

    And even if he did mean that as his own personal view? I don’t give a fuck. He’s got the guts to put Rocket Raccoon and possibly Cosmo in a movie despite how badly the marketing Executives of the world would balk at it. We need that kinda person to put Marvel Cosmic to its best use.

  • Arbite

    And why does being “equally GLBT/minority/feminist-friendly geek movie director.” become more important than the fact that Gunn actually is both a good director and willing to use the source material to its fullest? At some point the fact that they churn out something good becomes more important than their personal BS.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Except it confirms that it was satire and meant to be humorous, while also saying he feels it was done in bad taste and doesn’t think it is funny now.

    Everyone is a winner here.

  • Anonymous

    Intent is not magical, dude. Just because it was intended to be humorous does not excuse its offensive nature.

    So regardless if it was intended as satire, Gunn has now confirmed that “satire” is not a defense.

    Lean to logic.

  • http://twitter.com/BeakieHelmet BeakieHelmet

    Hey, if that’s the conclusion you want to draw from it, be my guest.

    All that matters is we got a great director doing a movie based on a great comic, and said director suits the film perfectly.

  • Anonymous

    We’ve reached that point, actually. or haven’t you noticed?

    Although, Gunn’s posted apology– on his facebook page, and already drowned by fanboys out to embarrass him by pooping all over his statement– seems to show that he really does understand exactly what he did, why its important and why he would never do it again. And that’s pretty damn good, because I don’t know about you but people hardly every communicate that clearly.

  • Octochan

    The problem is that things he said are indistinguishable from the things that hardline fanboys have said in total sincerity. If he had to explain the joke, if he had to tell people that he was joking, then he was doing it wrong.

  • Anonymous

    yes, we have discussed all of that. The consensus has been that it was meant to be humor. That the humor didn’t work. That the reason the humor didn’t work is because it was nothing more than exactly the same things men say when they are not joking. That the humor STILL contributes to rape culture, for the reasons we have ALSO been talking about.

    You will find these points reiterated over and over and over again.

  • al

    Shut up, you fucking women.

  • Ravens200052

    http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2012/11/guardians-of-the-galaxy-director-james-gunn-apologizes-to-glaad-for-homophobic-blog-post

    This is the best take on it, think you people are nuts or have waaaaay too much time on your hands.

  • Arbite

    Honestly I am a tad confused. He was reviewing a poll and stuff right? He seemed to be posting in character as a sort of “Fratboy stereotype” moreso mocking the people who voted by pretending to be one of them. I mean “I go after girls with daddy issues” and Teen moms and such are kinda like things that seem to be giant jokes. Too self-deprecating to in any way be serious.

  • Arbite

    I’m with the Spess mehreen on this. Gunn has the integrity and more importantly CLOUT to stick to Cosmic Marvel as it should be while the comics *themselves* are watering themselves down and trying to look as generic as possible.

  • Arbite

    That’s absurd to say. He was mocking the fratboy attitude by acting like an idiot and VERY clearly emphasizing how infantile it is to vote a lesbian as fuckable by taking it to the logical extreme and making them look disgusting by posting for lack of a better term “In character”

  • Anonymous

    The intention means everything. If a joke is taken wrong, assumed to mean something that it wasn’t intended to, then it’s the assumer that is in the wrong. Before people get offended they should consider what they are getting offended about instead of crying homophobe as a knee-jerk response.

  • Anonymous

    Well said. Gunn was the writer and co-director of one of the most queer-friendly films of the 90s, Tromeo & Juliet. At the same time he has a self-admitted sick and horny sense of humour, consistent with the gross-out and horror elements of Geek Culture. This has put him on the fringe of entertainment but being a horny gross geek doesn’t make you a bad person, and a past in that brand of entertainment shouldn’t preclude a person from moving on to make more mature works. If directors had to pass an offensiveness test then there would be no Kevin Smith or Peter Jackson or Quentin Tarantino.

  • captaincanada

    Are you still pissed off after his apology?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001216375009 Jason Tucker

    Are you people fucking kidding? Are nerds not allowed to lust over fictional women that are created pretty much for that explicit purpose? Get off your fucking high horses, holy shit. Mel Gibson still has a career, this barely qualifies as offensive by comparison.

  • Anonymous

    Well, he’s an insensitive douche to be sure.

    Not sure if this is boycott worthy though.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003037095323 Jerilyn Nighy

    Don’t worry about downvotes on the web. Sockpuppets abound.

  • Anonymous

    yeah. I’m thinking that you’re not so much confused, as you are too lazy to read what is already available.

  • Anonymous

    My critical review is very favorable. It demonstrates an in depth understanding of how to formulate an apology. His words speak right to me, YMMV.

    The comments from the fans kinda demonstrate, to me, at least, exactly why he needed to apologise. What a bunch of entitled brats! Not only do they ignore serious discussion, they ignore their beloved idol’s actual words.

  • Anonymous

    If you agree with me entirely, how is it I get three down-votes and you get one up-vote? That can’t be right!

  • Anonymous

    I’m curious; What element of diversity do you bring to the table?

  • Guest

    I think the phrase “homophobic” needs to go away. No ones afraid of gay people they’re just sick of them expecting us to accept their choices in sex partners and speech impediments as forced upon them by genetics and therefore must be followed through with. As if we should let everyone act out every want, desire, urge or inclination even if it “doesnt hurt anyone” from murderers, to liars to pedophiles. We all have things inside us which we fight against because morality tells us its wrong. Letting go of that morality results in society lowering itself to accept lesser and lesser from its people. So in short, I’m not homophobic, I’m homopposed

  • PCbuttonwasbroken

    I think the phrase “homophobic” needs to go away. No ones afraid of gay people they’re just sick of them expecting us to accept their choices in sex partners and speech impediments as forced upon them by genetics and therefore must be followed through with. As if we should let everyone act out every want, desire, urge or inclination even if it “doesnt hurt anyone” from murderers, to liars to pedophiles. We all have things inside us which we fight against because morality tells us its wrong. Letting go of that morality results in society lowering itself to accept lesser and lesser from its people. So in short, I’m not homophobic, I’m homopposed

  • MarkP

    Why does it matter?

    I mean, if we’re all equal, and everyone should be able to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they don’t cause intentional harm to others? If we’re free to share their well-considered and well-communicated opinions with other respectfully? Which I have endeavored to do…if you feel otherwise, I apologize.

    That is most assuredly what I believe. In that case, you know everything about me you need to know.

    Now, the cynical part of myself (which is quite powerful) is sitting here thinking that you simply want me to say I’m a straight white male. Because IF that were to be the case, you could deem my opinions irrelevant.

  • Anonymous

    It matters because you brought it up. *shrug*

    Here’s the problem with unintentional harm; it’s still harmful. Here’s why we talk about it; most unintentional harm comes from ignorance.

    Here’s the problem with being a straight white male; you are, still, privileged to believe that what YOU want matters the most, and that those mean other people are denying you your rightful fun.

    it’s not that your opinions and needs don’t matter, they do. But ALL women, ALL blacks and minority folk– we already know your opinions about being white, and about being male. We live in a world consumed by and governed by white male opinions, needs, and preferences. Geek culture is no different than the rest of the world in that respect.

    Back in a bit. I do hope that reads as at least somewhat respectful, because I do not intend any disrespect.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Howe/207300327 Joseph Howe

    It must be so exhausting to be offended all of the time. Why is it anytime someone says something Un-PC in something completely unrelated to their job the first answer is they must lose their job?

  • Brett Massey

    What dim, masturbatory rambling is this? What frail ego finds offense here?

  • http://twitter.com/Tonks07 Mandy

    This comment sums up this post for me. So A+ for you. Jokes about raping lesbians are not funny and are not satire to me. You can have/make jokes without resorting to mentioning a real life, tramatizing event and bigoted belief that too many people still hold that lesbians can somehow be turned by the right dude.

  • http://twitter.com/Tonks07 Mandy

    “a joke is a joke” you say? Rape should NEVER be the punchline of a joke. Never.

  • frostay
  • http://www.facebook.com/jesse.bailey.773 Jesse Bailey

    Truly, truly tone-deaf, juvenile and stupid jokes, and you right on the money to say this is the problem with the *context* of the joke – to his friends, it would have been fine, since they know he’s not serious. However, It is too bad that the post has spoiled you to his other work – personally, I wouldn’t care if the guy who designed the Notre Dame told sexist jokes every five seconds of his life, I’m still going to stand there in awe of that creation – almost as many people are involved in crafting a film as crafting a cathedral, and it is a shame to miss it all because one guy – even if he is the director’s chair – said somethign really stupid, homophobic, and misogynistic (as an attempt to satire such views, but whatever) online. He seemed genuinely shamed in his apology, so the outcry at least had that good effect!

  • http://twitter.com/Devilmatic Devilmatic

    You people are fucking idiots. (WHAT DO YOU MEAN, “YOU PEOPLE”?!?!?!) -_-;

  • http://profiles.google.com/kitfoxtrot Christopher LaHaise

    Are you sure? It certainly looks and sounds like him.

  • Tiffany

    gays aint natural. get over it.

  • Darren

    I’m a gay man, and I just laughed at this post…a lot of women have said to me, 1 night with me would turn you…Ha…I don’t think its homophobic its just wishful thinking…

  • Anonymous

    side bar this isnt a reflection of what he thinks of women, but of THESE women. he is talking about specific people so….get a brain :)

  • anonymous

    Yes, the things he said were in bad taste, but he shouldn’t be fired over it. And if you think he should, then you’re a hypocrite. Everyone has said something in their lifetime that would be offensive to other people. So by your logic, since you’ve said something in your past that would offend people, I should take your paycheck and give it to someone else.

  • Tony

    This is a perfect example of why women never get anything done. Constantly worried about your feelings, and who has hurt them lately. Stay here at mary sue, where you can all “validate ” each other. Let the big boys do the rest.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tarquin.mandrake Tarquin Mandrake

    if you use a phrase like slut-shaming then..

  • ACF

    When I read the first issue of the new Gambit series, it struck me almost immediately that he seemed to be drawn to some extent to be sexually attractive to the reader (in fact, he’s in the shower). As a heterosexual male, this seemed right to me; his personality has always been, in part, defined by his sexuality. He’s attractive to women, apparently both in and out of the universe, and is generally flirtatious and kind of slutty. It’s a fun part of his character, and I quite like it.

  • Tanya Mueller

    WOW. Well, definitely boycotting this movie, then, if Gunn’s name is attached to it by the time it comes out.
    That is WAY not satire (how can anyone say that it is? That word does not mean what some people seem to think it means). That is very deep misogynistic shite, and I can’t believe Marvel is not pulling this guy off the project. Apologies or not, I don’t believe this guy magically changed his views just because he caught some bad publicity.

  • ACF

    Well, based on Gunn’s comment/apology, I think it’s fair to say it was *attempted* satire, even though it failed to achieve that goal . That doesn’t make it good, but it at least indicates the flaw is with Gunn’s ability to write satire, not his worldview, which I guess is less bad. For the sake of the Guardians of the Galaxy, I hope, his ability to write serious works is better than his ability to write satire.

  • Anonymous

    60,000 people die in Syria. Susana Polo doesn’t give a damn. Some comic nerd jokes that Tony Stark could make the (straight in 99.9% of all the comics she’s ever appeared in) Catwoman like men, and she freaks the hell out. It might be time for her to grow up and adjust her priorities.

  • Anonymous

    Feminism is such an irrelevant joke in the 21st century. You aren’t victims anymore. If you “can’t get ahead” today, it’s your fault. Stop playing weak and get over yourselves.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1407800363 Kae Oz

    “known for dark humour”
    Obviously not so well know as some might think, And if someone has to know the writer to tell that it is satirical humour, they are not doing a very good job at it. Colbert’s shtick is obvious to anyone paying attention. If you some how did not pick up on Colbert’s satire, he would still succeed in making his point of view completely idiotic.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1407800363 Kae Oz

    If I have to be a student of a writers works to get that he is trying to communicate satirically, he is not doing a good job of satire. I am sure I am not the only one who does not follow his works that came upon this. Because there are so many who think like this and agree with this, the intentional stupidity of these things is not obvious. And wouldn’t be to most who do agree with this thinking.

  • Anonymous

    Huh. Look at all the worthless trash posts bashing feminism that this article has received.

    How sad.

    Almost as sad as the quote in the original post…