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UPDATED: DC Creator Tony Daniel Talks About The Romantic Superman/Wonder Woman Title At Fan Expo

Fan Expo is taking place in Toronto this weekend and as is usually the case, DC Comics held a panel to talk about their upcoming projects. The DC All Access panel yesterday featured Jeff Lemire, Lee Bermejo, Eddie Berganza, Brian Cunningham, and Tony Daniel. While lots of books were discussed, it’s the yet-to-be released Superman/Wonder Woman title that we were interested to learn more about. Hit the jump to find out how the title initially came about, why it was compared to Twilight, and why one audience member felt the need to stand up and ask for more than just romance. 

We got a tip from a reader named Jason about what went down on the panel as it pertained to DC’s female readership and searched for more information. Turns out, Bloody Disgusting recorded the entirety of the panel, moderated by John Cunningham, VP Marketing DC Comics. We’ve transcribed the following passages from their recording.

As the illustrator of Superman/Wonder Woman, Daniel was asked to speak a bit about the inception and direction of the title. He said:

It’s the perfect combination of what I wanted to do. They’re two of my favorite characters and I wanted to do Superman for a long time and I really wanted a much longer run than I had on Action. I just lover Superman, Metropolis, you know, Lois Lane, his whole world. It’s funny, because in Chicago I was talking to Bobbie Chase and Bob Harras about making a book, I wasn’t referring to creating this book, but I mentioned maybe, can we create a book that targets a little bit more of the female readership that’s been growing. And maybe a book that has a little bit of romance in it, a little big of sex appeal, you know, something that would, for lack of a better example, that hits on the Twilight audience. You know, millions of people went to see those in the theaters because it has those kind of, you know, subject matter. The drama, the characterization with love triangles and forbidden love and things like that. Literally a month later they asked me, “Hey, what do you think of Superman/Wonder Woman?” And I think it took all of maybe three seconds for me to say, “Yeah, that’s great. Let’s do that.” Because that’s exactly what I was describing that we need.

Cunningham broke in to mention writer Charles Soule’s take focuses on the nature of the relationship between the two iconic characters and then the panel went on to preview a few pages from the series. But when the Q&A portion of the panel began, a reader named Liz started this exchange:

Liz: When you were talking about Superman/Wonder Woman, what caught my ear was, you’re making it romance and romantic to catch the women. My question is, that’s not all you’re doing, right? [Laughter and applause from the audience]

Daniel: Are you asking if you’ll see like, Superman butt shots? I’ll be sure to keep it even.

Liz: Well recently there was that [Todd] McFarlane, that quote that women don’t read comics

Daniel: Who said that?

Liz: Todd McFarlane.

Daniel: Oh, where is he now? [Laughter from the audience]

Liz: I love reading you guys but sometimes it really feels like you’re not making anything that’s remotely comfortable for me. So how are you going to make…

Daniel: Well why don’t you wait until October and find out?

Lee Bermejo: Can I ask, what would you like to see?

Liz: I just want to see them be awesome.

Daniel: They will be awesome. [Laughter from the audience]

Cunningham: Does the cover imagery work for you? The stuff that we’re showing? I mean the…I mean I’m really curious. Like Lee asks, what you said, if that’s not what you’re looking for, what specifically are you looking for? Or is there anything specific?

Liz: Ok well for instance, I got into the New 52 and I’m like, “Hey, Catwoman has a title!” Catwoman, I don’t think I quite enjoyed where that went a lot of the times but see, I like Wonder Woman, I liked where that was going. But then I haven’t obviously seen this one yet so I don’t know exactly where it’s going to go. But I know [sigh]

Unknown panelist: You’ll love it, don’t worry. [Laughter from audience] You’ll love it.

Cunningham: The good news is we got Wonder Woman right, that’s a big step. Because in my mind, as a reader myself, that’s always been an issue for me. And I think Azzarello/Chang had done an amazing job.

Daniel: You’re going to be really surprised. I mean, that’s if, you know, that’s what you’re not expecting to be blown away or something, I think you will be blown away. She’s very strongly written, she’s not, you know, I mean she holds her own. And you’re going to like the interaction between Superman and Wonder Woman and as well as their private lives, Diana and Clark. I mean, we have a lot of fun with their interactions and we’re going to have that drama. And on different levels, there’s a lot of layers to it that make it, you know, a little bit more of a more enjoyable book for me to draw and I’m sure for Charles [Soule]. We’re both doing something kind of new with this so it has a perfect recipe I think and it’s something I really want to do. I really think you’re going to like it a lot. Let me know. Just get on Facebook, let me know.

Liz eventually put her own report up of her Fan Expo experience on io9 and we’ve reached out to her for comment. We’ll update the post once we’ve heard back but she did write about her reaction to hearing the Twilight comparison.

“I’m not kidding guys, I saw fucking RED. What the ever-loving FUCK did he just say??” Adding she’s not ”very confident” it will be awesome as Daniel said after hearing the description. “And I know I’m not full of shit, because I had a bunch of people come up to me after congratulating me on my question,” she wrote. ”I was just so incensed that a MAJOR COMIC BOOK PUBLISHER thought the only way to get women to read his books was to make them into romance.”

For my part, I was happy to hear Daniel approached the higher-ups about reaching out to the female readership. He’s aware the audience is there and wants to be catered to more than they already are (ie, none), he’s just a bit off about what we actually want. Or what some of us want. Us ladies aren’t a hive mind of course. So do me a favor, leave a comment letting DC (and all publishers really) know what you want to see, or don’t want to see as the case may be, in their comics.

Superman/Wonder Woman hits comic shops and digital venues October 9.

[UPDATE] We’ve heard back from Liz who gave us the following statement about her experience now that it’s sunk in:

Now that I’ve had some more time to think about it, what really made me upset was Daniel’s “Superman’s butt” comment. Just what I wanted! Male crotch shots. Maybe they’ll break his spine as they contort him so we can see pecs and butt at the same time. That’s not what I want. I don’t want them to treat Superman like how they treat Catwoman. Or Starfire.

I know I don’t speak for every woman, but I think I can with this statement: All we want are good, well written characters and stories.

With the Twilight comment, as I understand it they want some of that sweet, sweet female teenager disposable income. I get it; there’s gold in them thar hills. I just don’t trust them not to go to cheap pandering.

I can’t help but think that if this series fails, it’s an excuse for DC to say “Look! We tried! The ladies just don’t like it! See? Women don’t read comics!” If it’s successful, which it might be, they’ll completely move over to making only romantic titles, because they now have something that works. The regular comics will become even more entrenched as “for the guys” and any progress made in the past will be wiped out. There will be nothing but Boobs and Butt poses and smaller and more ridiculous costumes.

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  • Lisa Hager

    Ladies = feelings?
    [mental image of Wonder Woman using her lasso on these dudes]

  • Suzanne Larsen

    and after the conversation I had this weekend with a guy who was complaining that women get catered to in video games because they get “all the pretty outfits in fighting games”, this news just leaves me with no hope for humanity. “we want girls to read our books so lets add kissing stories. chicks dig that shit.”

  • Gerald Kirby

    Twilight was not a good love story. If there is a ven diagram of Twilight fans and female comic fans, the overlap would be very, very small. DC Comics has been working non-stop for the last two years to get new people buying their books, but in the process, they’ve just been alienating their existing fan base! It was the announcement of this book which was the last straw for me. That weekend, I cancelled all my New 52 subscriptions. If DC thinks that the only way they can attract new female readers is to turn Wonder Woman into a bad Bella Swan clone, then they don’t understand their characters or fans in the slightest.

  • NickN

    So basically if the book succeeds then DC gets to tell fans to go eat crow for disliking the Wonder Woman/Superman romance, if it fails editorial gets “proof” that comics aimed at an audience outside of the usual middle-aged white guys DC caters to is foolish. Fantastic.

    We could have gotten a Wonder Woman/Batwoman team-up book or Sensation Comics as an All Ages Wonder Woman book, but no Wonder Woman’s second book needs to be about romance.

  • Steven McDade

    Rather sad. Doesn’t anyone remember when they tried this before? Action Comics #600? I think I still have it. I’m rather disappointed in this storyline. What are they gonna do, have Sups tie up WW in her golden lasso?

  • Nicole Elizabeth Currie

    What’s making me see red is the way they completely dismissed her questions from the very beginning? How the fuck does someone hear the question that is basically “there’s going to be more than romance right?” and think the appropriate answer is “don’t worry, you’ll get to see Superman’s butt to?”
    Then, they completely misunderstand her for the rest of the effin’ interview. It was pretty obvious she was asking if there was more than romance, and they kept reassuring her about how good the romance will be?!?!!?!?!
    *Deep breaths Nicole, deep breaths.*

  • Becky Garbrick

    I’ll give them points for trying to engage her and get her reaction to the stuff they were showing. Then I’ll take them back for not actually listening to her answers.

  • Luke Turpeinen

    While I think it’s odd that they think that the Twilight audience and the girls who read superhero comics are the same demographic, it does at least seem as if they are genuinely trying to make something that they think female readers will want to read as opposed to either ignoring them or just putting out total BS. I don’t have a lot of confidence for this title, but maybe this is indicative of larger changes that we could be seeing soon as the old boys club reorients its paradigm.

  • Anonymous

    These guys encapsulate a problem I see a lot. They see a Thing That is Popular and decide to try and do the same without understanding why the thing is popular. Twilight is a romance novel, women like romance, women like feelings, a relationship between Wonder Woman/Superman will therefore appeal to women.

    Twilight did one thing well, and that was convey the intense, obsessive longing felt by stupid teenagers in love. The meat of the story (ugh, such as it is) is the first 1000 pages where the characters can’t be and aren’t together. Characters try and commit suicide because Love. Yeah DC, let’s see you try and capture that sort of desperate, consuming emotion with two characters who are only together as a publicity stunt and whose romance will take a backseat element to the punching and flying.

  • Gerald Kirby

    As a male comic book fan, I don’t read the books to see Wonder Woman, Catwoman or any other female character being sexualized. There is a debate that comics are male power fantasies. Maybe. Would I like Superman’s powers? Yes, because I want to help people beyond what I can do now. I am attracted to the personalities of these characters. They are meant to be examples for us live up to. The New 52 characters don’t feel like heroes to me anymore. They embarass me, and that’s depressing.

  • Anonymous

    Tony Daniel gets no points from me. Every single thing he said was dismissive.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not a fan of characters who cheat on their partners. Clark is with Lois, Diana with Steve. Amen.

  • Jim Cook

    Now I’m suddenly afraid of what would happen in a Wonder Woman movie.

  • Anonymous

    Strewth, really Twilight was for want of an example, it is perhaps the most well known example of what is the big paranormal romance subgenre, of which True Blood is another example. In terms of plot there are substantive differences between them and say the Vampire Diaries, but a writer understands that a story involves using recognisable ideas in interesting ways. So Stephen King’s the Long Walk + teen angst becomes the Hunger games.

    Superman and Wonder Woman is a paranormal romance, two functionally eternal super powered characters who also try to live normal lives, while doing extraordinary things.

    That DC is trying to expand the appeal of comics is great, but they wouldn’t be doing this if the metrics weren’t pointing to sales, ie the Superman Wonder Woman covers and merchandise must indicate there is already a market for this kind of story, which DC naturally hope to grow by attracting new readers.

  • Katie

    Uh maybe the boys club at DC Comics should actually ask us ladies what we want. I for one dont want to read a romance between Wonder Woman/Superman. The one great romance they had in Lois & Clark that resonated with so many people was pushed away so the middle aged guys at DC Comics could live out their fantasy.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “Superman and Wonder Woman is a paranormal romance, two functionally
    eternal super powered characters who also try to live normal lives,
    while doing extraordinary things.”

    I hate to say it, but that kind of misses the point of the usual appeal of paranormal romance. While paranormal romance isn’t one of my favorite genres, we moved A LOT of it when I worked at a public library, and part of the appeal really seems to be that you have a magical, super-powered guy who is in love with a woman who is, more often than not, fairly ordinary. She might have some magic tricks of her own up her sleeve, but you rarely see a pair of vampires or a pair of werewolves, or something like that. It’s not completely unheard of. But I think the appeal has always been “Ordinary Girl Wins the Love of an Extraordinary Man.”

    Which is waaaay more Lois-and-Clark than Superman/Wonder Woman.

    (Honestly, if you want the regular superhero comic that probably holds the best appeal to the “Twilight crowd”–or could have if it had been marketed that way–the Marvel Adventures “Thor: The Might Avenger” run was kind of perfect. A normal woman with an interesting job gets romanced by an alien god in a really sweet courtship.)

  • Laura Truxillo

    And Barry is with Iris.

    (Seriously, tell me that the Barry/Patty stuff doesn’t read like that awkward thing when you’re a kid and you watch your newly divorced parents try to date other people.)

  • Laura Truxillo

    Oh.Oh spit, you’re exactly right.

  • Laura Truxillo

    I can’t tell if it’s nice that they’re trying, even if the approach is more than a little tone-deaf, or if it’s even worse, because if it fails it’ll be because of the audience not being receptive rather than the product being defective.

    I’m…not thrilled with the Twilight comparison, but I can see the reason for it. Twilight made a boatload of money, created a huge, terrifyingly loyal fanbase, etc etc. It’s not necessarily a bad thing for a company to shoot for. But it does feel like rather than actually hearing what women want, or maybe going to sites like the Mary Sue and other places where women congregate to talk about geek-things, they simply heard, “Women want things,” and then used a different set of data to understand what it was that women want. Kissing and Superman-butts, right?

    (Okay, that’s not wholly wrong, but it would probably be with a different person than Wonder Woman. Possibly a crusader of some kind…in a cape…)

  • Anonymous

    Yup. And if you have read Twilight you know full well that they reference Superman and Lois Lane in the first book. Bella is not Lois Lane. She doesn’t have a job and she gives up her life and worth for Edward which is why they are nowhere near as good as Superman/Lois. But they are rooted in the combination of the super/human. Of privilege and humanity.

    Edward Cullen was inspired by both Henry Cavill and Tom Welling. He’s an inferior version of Superman. And Bella Swan is am inferior, weaker idea of Lois Lane.

    I would have read a romance book. About Lois and Clark. Right idea. Wrong couple.

  • Anonymous

    I agree that is true to some extent, but not of say Anita Blake, or Sookie from True Blood, who pack a supernatural punch – but it also ignores the trend for balanced relationships – which is relatively new, shows built on will they won’t they trope have made the jump to full on romance, Castle and Bones for example. In Teen Wolf the female lead is far from helpless to go back to the genre.

    This is an interesting development as stories usually ended when the couple got it on – the last couple adventure show I remember was from the 70′s Hart to Hart.

  • Anonymous

    There was a built-in female fanbase in place for Lois and Clark from years of television. That female fanbase was already there. It’s not a horrible idea to do a romance book with Superman. But they gutted the iconic love story to do it and threw Wonder Woman to the wolves in the process.

    This book could have been fine….if it was about Lois and Clark. Instead you have DC leadership turning Wonder Woman into a sex object, male gazing her and throwing Lois out like yesterday’s garbage. No thanks, DC. I’m female. I don’t want this sexist book.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Apparently, what they think their audience wants is for Superman to have the same amount of “butt shots” as Wonder Woman…

  • Anonymous

    They did achieve that kind of desperate, passionate emotion and love…….it just isn’t between Superman and Wonder Woman. It was between Superman and Lois Lane.

    But the 45 year old men in charge are having a mid-life crisis. So Superman was set up to dump his “unworthy” human career woman wife and Wonder Woman got used and abused. And here we are.

  • monkeypants2230

    But you had that…you have that in some comics now…and you have tv and movies…where are the female readers? DC should be beating them off with all the exposure Lois and Clark has. And Lois and Clark was a deliberate attempt to make it about romance so let’s all not get moral about it because it’s just the wrong couple in your opinion. And unless I was educated differently from people…nothing in that dialogue said they going to write sm/ww like Twlight. Nothing. It’s about marketing and using strategy they use all the time. Look to your own Smallville tv series.

  • frodobatmanvader

    But… but how do you know they’re not going to make both characters be empowered badasses… (looks at writer’s comment about making sure Superman has the same amount of Butt-shots)…

    …oh. Ye-e-eah, if I really wanted this, I’m sure I could just get it for free on Deviantart.

  • Anonymous

    Charles, you are a 40-something man and you run the Superman/Wonder Woman tumblr and fan site.

    You aren’t in any place to speak about what women want or how we feel seeing our icons abused like this.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Supergirl? Hey, I kid, I kid… Though the title “World’s Finest Kissing Cousins” would raise some eyebrows…

  • frodobatmanvader

    True Blood is an exception that proves the rule: on the one hand, yes, Sookie has her own powers that put her on a more level playing field with the vampire craziness going on around her. However, on the other hand her powers are DIFFERENT from simply being a vampire, and only elaborated on AFTER she discovers this vampire business.

    To elaborate on Laura’s statement, the appeal is “Ordinary Girl Wins the Love of an Extraordinary Man, Discovers She is Extraordinary Herself (Perhaps Uniquely So).”

  • Anonymous

    I would never describe the Superman/Lois romance as desperate (or particularly passionate). Their’s has tended to be a very adult romance and lot more emotionally stable. Lois Lane never attempts suicide because she thinks Superman doesn’t love her.

    Spider-Man loves Mary Jane portrayed that kind of romance in a more positive light. There’s a Catwoman story called “No Easy Way Down” by Brubaker and Mike Manley that did a good job portraying that obsession more negatively.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Man, I hope so, but I think I can only see that happening if this becomes a success. Sadly, what seems most likely is it will be a bitter failure and that’ll only reinforce their tired “Comics are for boys” mentality.

    Still, one can hope.

  • Mina

    Ugh. So much face-palming. I admire their goal of appealing to more female fans, but I do not understand how they thought imitating Twilight would do that. There are definitely women who love Twilight, yes. I know some of them personally. The thing is, they tend to be women who are not at all interested in comic books and couldn’t care less if a Superman/Wonder Woman romance is happening. The women I know who DO enjoy superhero comic books, or any comic books, or just the idea of comic books tend to be either people like myself who enjoy some aspects of Twilight but find it deeply flawed or else people who just flat out do not like Twilight at all. How out of touch do you have to be to realize that “some women really enjoy Twilight” is not necessarily going to translate to “some women, including our current female readers, will really enjoy a Twilighty romance between Superman and Wonder Woman”? That whole panel discussion was ridiculous.

  • MeatyStakes

    I’m like ehhhhhhhhhhh…..

    I mean, is just one of those things you just have to see; will it be an honest to god representation of a mature relationship between two super powered beings, or will it just be Wondy crying on sheets yelling CLAAAAARK and then butt shot.

    But the “we wanted more female readership” and “look at twilight” bits don’t make really hopeful. It makes sound like a heartless “demographic” targeting instead of an honest introspective approach of a romance.

    But even if they are just as competent as your run of the mill fanfic writer, it could actually be okay.

    wow, them low standards.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Now this just stings even worse. I WOULD BUY THE HELL OUT OF A “WORLD’S FINEST,” STARRING SUPERMAN & WONDER WOMAN. Instead, we get Rule 34 in print.

  • Anonymous

    And Anita Blake? ( also a comic) Vampire Academy? – Many stories do follow the classic romance trope of dashing hero and swooning maiden, but many successful ones don’t.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve read a few books where it’s a supernatural woman who seeks the love of a human man, and the appeal is still often “Under-appreciated/Loner/Ostracized Girl Wins the Love of a Man Who Realizes How Extraordinary She Is.” That appreciation, the sense of someone discovering your “specialness,” seems to be the most recurring factor.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Anita Blade didn’t *start out* as an example of the romance novel. It started out as “Awesome women pwning vampires with some tawdry romance on the side.” Once it lost all of that and became ONLY about the “vampire sexing,” it LOST readers and gained general ire.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Thank you. That is exactly the point I was trying to make, but you made it better. :)

  • Anonymous

    Reading is great. Read Twilight, and pick up something else, True Blood, maybe interview with a Vampire. It all leads somewhere. Comics were seen as bad for reading, until it was shown empirically that the opposite was true. When DC launched the New 52 they helped every other comic company.
    I can’t be the only person with a marketing background that has noticed changes in the nature of shows and stories, right now couples as lead characters work in way they haven’t – once a show like say Bones would have been over once the protagonists got together, something has changed.

  • Anonymous

    Yeah…his comments were gross and arrogant. He wasn’t taking her questions or concerns seriously. It all felt very highschool…she’s up there alone, and he’s surrounded by his buddies and has the room on his side (judging from the laughs and applause) and is basically telling her that her concerns are invalid.

    “Why don’t you wait until October to find out?” That was a unnecessarily hostile answer to her very valid concerns that the narrative thrust of this book, as it has been solicited and described, devalues Wonder Woman as a hero by putting her focus on romancing Superman.

    That he wants to engage a female audience is commendable, but that he thinks he knows what that audience wants is questionable, given what he’s said.

    I don’t pretend to have my fingers on the pulse of female fandom, but from what I’ve read online and from what I’ve experienced with my own female friends and the women who shop at the store I work at, what women want in their entertainment is not much different from what men want in theirs when it comes to superhero comics; they want to see heroes being heroes. And, unfortunately, a lot of those heroes are not presented in a way that is comfortable for women, as Liz states above in reference to Catwoman.

    I don’t think Tony Daniel’s assurences have assured anyone.

  • Anonymous

    And I don’t see Superman and Wonder Woman being solely a romance comic, but Awesome Adventure with romance on the side. Doesn’t change however the point that Anita Blake is a successful paranormal romance series – which I agree lost it way – begins with a character with her own set of abilities.
    But to direct you back to my original comment, & subsequent, the point is the Zeitgeist of the moment is power couples, hence that is the starting point for this book – so the paranormal romance / romance story comparison is limited by the more recent shift toward power couples in fiction ( which limits examples ) and away from the will they won’t they, or traditional hero and damsel tropes.

  • HamsterMasterSamster

    Considering female characters are often only allowed to participate in comics, games and movies if they are a romantic interest of the male character, I hardly see this as filling some kind of gap in the market.

    I wish I could believe this was going to be a very equal relationship, but decades of seeing female characters used to further the plots of male characters makes me dubious that this story will be anything more than ‘Superman and his girl’.

  • Jill Pantozzi

    You’re talking about this incident, correct? Just want to give folks context.

  • Jen L

    Apparently, they’re fine asking; they just ask sarcastically to discourage response and if women respond anyway, they dismiss the answer.

  • Anonymous

    It was always passionate while being adult snd stable. Especially when written on television by female writers and producers. Passion and mature can go hand in hand.

    I totally agree that it was always healthier than the Twillght narrative. I was more making the point that DC already had a romance with a built in audience that was female if they wanted to cater to women with romance. I agree that Twilight is full of awful problems.

  • Jen L

    Right. It’s bad for current female fans to question the decision but it’s right and proper for men to contradict female fans on what they want.

    What’s wrong with this is that it will offend current male and female fans if actually done in the way they are discussing it, in order to take a risk on a market segment that doesn’t currently buy comics or graphic novels or even cartoons.

  • Jess Tama

    Never said what exactly? And I like that you are assuming that me reading comics means I don’t read books as well. And that you seem to be saying that comics are not as worthwhile as books. I have spent a lot of time arguing the exact opposite, since I am an avid reader. Also, I absolutely WILL run down any teenage girl or woman who is aspiring to nothing more than reading “romance” that is just badly disguised abuse.

  • Anonymous

    Daniels stormed off twitter months ago after he was questioned about his use of the “friend zone” in Actjon Comics. He called fans idiots and cursed at them. He’s o friend to women in comics. You can search the screencaps on tumblr. It’s shocking behavior.

  • Anonymous

    It’s weird that they are marketing a romance book for men at women, isn’t it? @_@ I wonder how that’s going to go for them…

  • Anonymous

    It wouldn’t matter to me either way. I don’t want to see Wonder Woman in a relationship with Superman. If she’s in a relationship at all I prefer Steve Trevor bc he’s human and I like the message that men can love women who overpower them. I prefer Lois with Superman because I like the message that career women are valued and worthy and that “power” doesn’t come from physical privilege or shallow things like hotness.

  • Anonymous

    I know huge groups of women who came to comics after Smallville ended hoping to be welcomed as readers. Instead, they were greeted with misogny, sexism and fandoms that pushed them out. DC didn’t want their business and they made that clear.

    TV treated women as a valid, important audience and women came. Comics made them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome so they stayed away. It’s that simple.

    And btw the Smallville digital first comic has been a top seller digitally since its debut over a year ago. And 40% of the readers were estimated to be new to comics and female.

  • Anonymous

    It works reversed too with Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor or Diana with a human.

    The idea is that privilege doesn’t decide love. That physical power doesn’t decide love. That two people can fall in love and find power in odd places.

  • Anonymous

    I actually really liked the dynamic of the Wonder Woman/Batman relationship that Joe Kelly was teasing in his JLA run. There was one really great issue drawn by Chris Cross that had this great romance in the workplace sort of vibe to it…wish I could remember the number. But there were a few great scenes because Batman is a cold, closed off, guy and Wonder Woman is this vivacious, confident, woman and he’s actually sort of intimidated by her. I could get on board with something like that, because Diana was leading that relationship…she was drawing Bruce out, reminding him what it’s like to be human. Reminding him TO be human.

    Or maybe I’m reading a lot of subtext there…It’s been awhile. ^_^;;;

  • Anonymous

    Passion and maturity can go hand in hand, I just can’t recall ever seeing that with Superman and Lois Lane. I’ve seen it be cute, interesting, intimate, romantic, and funny but not really passionate. Although it’s been a long time since I’ve seen The New Adventures of Superman, which is probably the most likely source for passion. Sure as hell wasn’t Smallville.

  • Anonymous

    What millions of females? The majority of supper I see for Superman/WW comes from Middle Aged men or, worse yet, raging misognists who degrade women in porn. Are there some women who like it? Sure. There are exceptions. And that’s fine.

    But this is a convo specifically about the demo for paranormal romance and catering to women. It’s a convo about what women like and what they like.

    I’m the demo. I don’t like this. For Wonder Woman or Lois Lane. I love them both. Lois supposedly will be in this book. I won’t buy it. I don’t appreciate two female icons being put in a stupid love triangle over a man.

  • Emily

    Honestly the stuff I want to see in comics, for both male and female heroes, is personality, character and generally platonic relationships. I love seeing interactions between characters that are about being friends, family or even enemies. I can relate to the deep connections between friends, I know zero about romantic relationships. Yes some romance is fine and can be fun, but I always prefer those when they are a secondary (or tertiary) focus. I read Captain Marvel because I get some awesome action, her emotional struggles, her amazing friendships and so much more. There are awesome layers to her character and in her comic she is never out shined by someone else or her romantic relation with someone else, but she can shine even brighter with her friendships with others. That is the kind of thing I want in comics, not poorly thought out romances to try to hook the female audience.

  • Laura Truxillo

    Well, thanks to JLU, I’ve always liked Diana/Bruce for much the same reason.

    And that’s part of what makes an engaging (haHA!) romance story–the two people in it have to be different. And Diana and Bruce are very different people in the way they view and react to the world and in the sides of one other they can bring out, while Diana and Clark…are very very similar.

  • Laura Truxillo

    Sue me, but I always liked Supergirl best with Captain Boomerang Jr. A pair of teenage screw-ups who aren’t really sure what they want out of life, but aren’t short on other people telling them what that is.

  • Anonymous

    DC is at a place where they are not asking any fan what they want…they are telling them. They didn’t ask fans if they wanted the New-52, and when they did afterwords, the polls on their own website suggested that people overwhelmingly did not want the New-52.

    But this is especially evident in their approach to their female readership. Every time someone gets up at a Q&A and asks about Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown, they get snarked out or ignored. Women tell DC what they want all the time, but DC’s response is to tell THEM what they want…which is why there’s a Superman/Wonder Woman book marketed at the TWILIGHT crowd (it’ll be interesting to see how they incorporate that) that I have literally seen NO WOMAN say they want. DC keeps insisting that women will love this book to the women that get up to tell them that they don’t want this book. That is INSANE.

  • Laura Truxillo

    I never said helpless. I said “fairly ordinary.” And at the start of Anita Blake’s story (not so familiar with True Blood), yes, Anita is fairly ordinary. She can make zombies, but that’s basically seen as a job skill. I’d almost liken it to being a doctor–most people can’t do it and it’s very impressive, but it’s not really on the same level as a centuries-old vampire or a pack-leader werewolf.

    She gains new powers over the course of a story, which, well, yes, that’s what should happen. (Look at Dresden Files: Book 1 Harry was menaced by a dog-sized scorpion. By book seven, he’s confronting gods.) But she starts out relatively ordinary, and the magical, powerful people are drawn to her anyway.

    Frodo said it well–the next part of it really should be “Discovers She Is Extraordinary Herself.”

    No one really wants “helpless.” But the appeal of someone with otherworldly power loving someone who’s merely mortal is what drives a lot of paranormal romance.

    In terms of caving into the will-they-won’t-they romance, sure it works. But first you have to build up the romance. Castle teased for seasons, and even once they were romantically involved, there was a lot of uncertainty in their relationship. But it’s the build-up that makes a romance most of the time.

  • Veronica Cristina

    People were polite to Daniel, but he called them crazy.

  • Anonymous

    Oh yeah…the episode with Circe where Wonder Woman is turned into a pig (not a great example, as it was mostly a Batman episode…but it did show how Wonder Woman had a positive effect on a guy with serious emotional problems) was one of my favorite of the series! That show was a lot of fun…unlike, you know, anything else DC is doing right now.

  • Laura Truxillo

    I think you’re trying to read something that neither of us were saying.

    My example of a good take on the trope was the MA Thor comic. I believe you will find no “swooning” there. You will find a woman with no superpowers (except her brain) who is capable, kind, and determined.

    The appeal of a paranormal romance comes from two people who are fundamentally different seeing something worthwhile in one another. You just don’t get that in Superman/Wonder Woman. They’re far too similar. It’s…dull.

  • Anonymous

    That was Joe Kelly again. Now that I think about it, he was pretty good at writing believable romance.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “DC should be beating them off with all the exposure Lois and Clark has.”

    Sure, if they’d done anything with it. They really didn’t.

  • Veronica Cristina

    Oh Cool a male white man telling what us, female readers, like to read in a comic and got it completely wrong. twilight was a big success but it’s not the same fanbase. And I doubt Twilight fanbase would be interested in SM/WW comic, Bella was a normal woman without powers. They doesn’t even understand what made Twilight a success.
    Where is the 2nd Wonder Woman book? Not this fake romance book.
    I just want to read good stories with strong female characters, it is so har to understand?

  • Laura Truxillo

    I didn’t see anything like “women running down other women” in Jess’s comment. The only thing she dissed was Twilight, and I’m sorry if it’s something that you really are a fan of and hate to see criticized, but there are some legitimate criticisms to be made of Twilight, both in terms of technical skill and in terms of the mindset it engenders.

    I know perfectly intelligent people who quite liked Twilight, and I certainly don’t think any less of them. But we do not need things to be MORE like Twilight any more than we need movies to be MORE like “That’s My Boy.”

  • Yolanda Beatty

    Oh they can certainly keep this. I will be saving my money.

  • Rebecca R

    I don’t understand, when did it become uncool for geeky women to ‘have feelings’ and ‘like romance’ and relationships and all that stuff? I like all those things in my action series, and I see no indication from this one interview that they’re throwing out the actiony/adventure/plot bits. YES: it is a problem that this writer, and probably DC comics at large, seems to think that romance/relationships is ALL we like, but I am not against DC reaching out to geeky female fans of comics by giving me something I do like in their comic books, in addition to something else and – hopefully – in place of the stupid machismo that often drives me away from books. I mean, if the comic book only exists for the two of them to ‘have feelings’ and do ‘romance’ stuff, then yeah, it’ll suck really fast, but I can’t imagine they wont also be doing actiony/adventurey/plot-arc-related things. And those two things TOGETHER (w/ compelling art and storytelling) are what bring me to books.

    Also, I hated Twilight. There is a difference between a well written adult romance between two mature adults and … that.

  • Anonymous

    All that is true. However my observation is about a change, which Castle and Bones exemplify, the began as very traditional will they won’t they, but survived the jump into a power couple shows. Which is remarkable. Romance has always been an important part of many stories – but the rise of the power couple is something relatively new, ( at least recently ) it can be found in paranormal fiction, and elsewhere.
    My point was Twilight is the most well known example of the sub genre, and that DC’s metrics must give them reason to expect the book to sell well, I assume based on the sales of books which have featured the Superman Wonder Woman couple.

  • Laura Truxillo

    You’re…very angry, aren’t you?

  • Laura Truxillo

    “However my observation is about a change, which Castle and Bones
    exemplify, the began as very traditional will they won’t they, but
    survived the jump into a power couple shows.”

    Right, okay, but in that case, what does that have to do with anything we’re saying?

    And now we’re back to Twilight, which brings me back to my original point–I’m don’t like the book, but the appeal of it was that Bella is an “ordinary” girl who is loved by an “magical” guy. Which is more Lois/Clark than Superman/Wonder Woman.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “However my observation is about a change, which Castle and Bones
    exemplify, the began as very traditional will they won’t they, but
    survived the jump into a power couple shows.”

    Right, okay, but in that case, what does that have to do with anything we’re saying?

    And now we’re back to Twilight, which brings me back to my original point–I’m don’t like the book, but the appeal of it was that Bella is an “ordinary” girl who is loved by an “magical” guy. Which is more Lois/Clark than Superman/Wonder Woman.

  • Anonymous

    Wow. Our mileage varies, by a light year or so.

    An Alien raised in Kansas by Farmers, with SF powers – American raised, is too similar to a Princess from an all women Realm, who is a demi-god and has powers derived from magic?

    That’s similar?

  • Anonymous

    Wow. Our mileage varies, by a light year or so.

    An Alien raised in Kansas by Farmers, with SF powers – American raised, is too similar to a Princess from an all women Realm, who is a demi-god and has powers derived from magic?

    That’s similar?

  • frodobatmanvader

    That is quite true. Power couples definitely are “in.” Sorry I failed to grasp that that was the point you were making. That said, though, for a variety of reasons I still think that trying to fit Superman and Wonder Woman into that kind of mold is a serious misstep. Someone else pointed out how this could have been more of a “World’s Finest”-type title, just with Superman and Wonder Woman, and I think THAT would have been a title to go for. Hearing them grouse about their “average” love interests with each other would have been amusing, too.

  • Laura Truxillo

    I think the problem we’re having here is more that the people who are going to write romance for women to “have feelings” at are men who’ve shown that they tend to be pretty dismissive to what women fans are saying. (Take a gander at Daniels’ whole “friendzone” incident downthread. I do NOT want to ever read Superman, of all people, complaining that he got “friendzoned.”)

    I like romance. I love romance with my nerddom. I may be a little too into fanfiction for my own good.

    But there’s something really tonedeaf about this whole interview. Like they’re trying to fill some romance rubric instead of writing a good story.

  • Guest

    I’ll admit, I have been very deeply confused by a lot of what I’ve seen the past few years. It’s a shame.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Yeah, to me, with the ONLY exception being the end of Kingdom Come, I always thought Diana and Clark’s relationship to be the more sibling-like kind that comes from being BFFs. I mean, think about it, Diana’s spent all her young life amongst women, hoping to see the world outside… wouldn’t she have always wanted a brother?

  • Anonymous

    I don’t disagree Twilight is more Lois and Clark, with Bella/Lois as the damsel in distress, at least until the part she get’s superpowers, that hasn’t ever really stuck for Lois.

    The shows are examples of how the paradigm has changed from will they won’t they – it ends when the leads get together and shifted to power couples.

    Twilight is just the most well known example of paranormal romance hence Daniel used it with a caveat! – picking up ideas from the sub genre paranormal romance does not mean the writer intends to steal from the plot, ie stalker vampire or submissive Bella, but rather picks up on general themes, fashion in fiction – which is power couples.

  • Anonymous

    Why is the target demographic of the book they are pitching at them expressing their concerns about the book spiteful? Most of your comments seem to be angry that people have an opinion at all. Your main argument seems to be, “They’re doing this for YOU!”

    It’s not ungrateful to dislike a book aimed at you created by people that don’t get you at all.

  • Laura Truxillo

    Yes. Yes, they very much are.

    They are similar sorts of people. They’re both about hope and an idealized world, even, or especially, when the real world fails to deliver. They’re both warm, caring people with a generally positive outlook on life, and a gentleness born of knowing exactly how strong they are.

    And as much dust as you try to throw up about their Drastically Different backstories (which don’t even sort of change the kinds of people they are), they both have a very similar set of powers and are, basically, gods.

    Wonder Woman gets called the “female Superman” because she basically is. They both represent an ideal, a sense of inherent Goodness and Light that is drastically different from Batman’s moodiness, or even the heroism of Flash or Green Lantern or Black Canary. They aren’t two sides of the same coin–they’re the same side. And romantically, they bring out nothing surprising or interesting in one another.

  • Rebecca R

    Daniels is definitely a huge problem, and I’m very glad he’s only the artist and not the writer on this project, but I don’t think they sound tonedeaf so much as a combination of one guy who was interested, and another guy who was so full of himself, he didn’t think he needed to be told. That’s at least 50/50 hopeful, isn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    Someone pointed that out above too…it’s a no-win scenario for women. “Here’s a book you don’t want…if you don’t support it, we’ll have DEFINITIVE PROOF that women don’t buy superhero comics, so we can finally stop marketing comics at them.” That is an awful position to be in, and I’m truly sorry you are in it.

    Because doing nothing is way easier than asking women what they want…or listening to them way they tell you what it is they want. Or giving them what they want.


  • Anonymous

    My other point was that I would assume DC doesn’t think it’s a misstep, further launching this book suggests the metrics, ie the revenue stream from books and merchandise suggests there is a market for a Superman Wonder Woman Book.
    ie the Relationship will last as long as it sells.

    On the bright side, we still get World’s Finest in Batman and Supeman, ( and Huntress and Power Girl )

  • Jill Pantozzi

    What incident with Soule are you referencing? I don’t think I know it.

  • Anonymous

    Agree to disagree on that one. I enjoyed Tom and Erica together very much and really enjoyed their chemistry.

  • Anonymous

    I didn’t even know about this.

    I think the grossest thing is that his argument seems to be that they are wrong to even have an opinion on it, rather than understand their position at all, or formulate one of his own that isn’t “@#$% off.”

  • Anonymous

    Laura just read back what you’ve written and ask yourself if that sounds a real adult relationship? One based on shared values and in time experience, despite different backgrounds?

    If that isn’t surprising or interesting, give me that kind of boring every day please and then some.

  • Anonymous

    Except Clark was a widower at the end of Kingdom Come. Lois was still the love of his life. Mark Waid has said as much. (He also said that if he had it to do over he’s not sure he would end the book the same way.)

    Even in KC….they came off more like good friends who needed companionship after trauma. Not lovers.

  • Anonymous

    I wish someone at DC would read your comment, because you are literally TELLING THEM what will get you to read a book, and why you read their competitors book instead. This FREE MARKET RESEACH! This is what they should be doing if they want to sell books to YOU and women like you!

    This is why it’s important to be vocal. This is why the internet and sites like this and others are great…they give you a place to give voice to what you want.

    I like CAPTAIN MARVEL too. ^_^ It’s a solid book!

  • frodobatmanvader

    So, you mean I get to see Batman and Superman (again) OR Huntress and Power Girl, but no multi-gender team-ups UNLESS they’re in a relationship? Excuse me if I take the rest of my life to say “yay.”

  • Laura Truxillo

    “ask yourself if that sounds a real adult relationship”

    Okay, dude, you keep moving the goalposts here. We’re not talking about a “real adult relationship.”

    This started talking about Superman/Wonder Woman as compared to Twilight. Which is not a “real adult relationship.” It is a freaking mess. But it sells.

    Are we talking romantic fiction to get womens pants excited and make them spend their money on comics (since that’s apparently how you do it in Tony Daniels Land)? Well, then, I hate to have to sit down and explain this to you, but it’s virtually NEVER about a “real adult relationship.”

    Writing is about drama.

    You do not want “drama” in your “real adult relationship.” You want something dynamic, sure. But drama can stay far the hell away.

    You want drama in your writing. You want characters at the opposite ends of the spectrum who push and pull, who bring out new and surprising actions in one another. That’s why the barbarian captures the noblewoman’s heart, why the scoundrel woos the princess, why fandom will not shut up about Clint/Coulson. Why Wash and Zoe worked. That’s why Castle and Becket sparked on screen. That’s why Lois and Clark are an icon over fifty years old.

    If you take two characters who are completely in synch, you have no drama. You can…manufacture, I suppose, drama if you must. But there will be no inherent drama that comes from the characters themselves.

    And you. You CAN’T play the: “Well, doesn’t that sound like a lovely real-life romance?” card after you’ve been using the likes of ANITA BLAKE, (not to mention Twilight, True Blood, Vampire Academy, etc) to make your point, because all of those are about relationships that are NOT good real-life relationships, but are rather “dangerous fantasies.” And while Castle and Becket are a much healthier relationship in comparison, even they sound nothing like what I just described–they’re drastically different people with wildly different approaches to problems and to life in general–AND THAT’S WHAT MAKES THE ROMANCE WORK. That’s what made it work in the will-they-won’t-they stage, and that’s what keeps the romance from getting boring now that they’re in the relationship stage.

    I’m very sorry that a lot of people don’t like your OTP. It’s a thing that happens in fandom. You can defend it all you like, but for the love of little blue aliens, please be consistent.

  • Anonymous

    How has he proven himself a friend to women, aside from saying he wants to get their money? If he was serious about being a ‘friend to women’ he wouldn’t dismiss and mock them, and take their concerns seriously. No one is picking on Tony Daniel or Charles Soule to be mean to them. They have said, “This is what we think women want,” and the response has been overwhelming, “No It’s not not,” to which their response has been, “Yeah…It IS.”

    That’s not very friendly.

    And it’s not just Tony Daniel and Charles Soule…it’s DC Editorial. Women have not responsed well to the Superman/Wonder Woman coupling since it was introduced in Justice League. This has been going on for awhile. The new book is an attempt to shove it down the throats of the people who have not responded to it, by saying it’s for them.

  • Anonymous

    You’ve summed up the mindset pretty succinctly. It’s a very MAD MEN approach to marketing at women. #Gross

  • AS

    So … who are their villians? Are they doing missions together? What kind of problems are they going to encounter? Supes doesn’t want to do the dishes? What?

    I think what strikes me as the biggest mistake they’re making is acting like there’s one kind of monolithic “GIRL” audience that they can tap into.

    Yes, Twilight was mostly romance, and yes it made tons of money. There’s a huge audience out there for it.

    Does that audience have significant crossover with the kind of girls who actually read comics??

    I don’t know, and /they should really spend some time looking into that/.

    There are LOTS of girls out there who already want to read comics, but none of the ones I know personally would consider themselves part of the Twilight audience. There’s nothing wrong with being part of that audience, but it’s not something I or my friends are into at all.

    We actually do sit here and talk about what we’d like to see and I’m pretty sure “more het romance between two white people who have analogous superpowers with no obvious source of conflict” isn’t super high on the list.

  • frodobatmanvader

    “They came off more like good friends who needed companionship after trauma.” Exactly. They got married (and were pregnant with a child) for the same reason old widowers marry each other: a mature understanding that life doesn’t need to be traveled alone, and remarriage doesn’t diminish their previous loved ones’ memory.

    I thought it was done very maturely, and was an exception to the “Wonder Woman and Superman aren’t a good match” concept that proved the rule: they work SO much better as a platonic companionship, that even if they got married it would be an extension of their friendship, not a steamy romance.

  • Emily

    Yeah, there is a lot of places where DC could get helpful feedback, but they seem to be inclined to ignore are the great resources the internet has to offer. A lot of people are vocal about what they would like, but it often falls on deaf ears.

    It feels like they get these vague notions in their heads and decide to just run with them instead of taking time to consider what people want.

  • Anonymous

    Responding to a point you raise in an imeediate reply is not moving the goal posts.

    Drama is part of the story, as is action, comedy, romance, and so on. Charles Soule believes he has plenty to work with – that there is a “dangerous romance” here, and I agree, YMV,
    As for the consistency of my argument I think it stands up very well. You just seem to continue to confuse the actual point ie that power couples and paranormal romance is cool, with individual plot points of the stories I mention.
    Daniel isn’t saying take the plot of Twilight, nor am I saying take the plot of True Blood, or Anita Blake etc – but rather the idea of a power couple and supernatural romance/urban fantasy is interesting.

    I don’t care how many people on internet boards like or dislike Superman Wonder Woman, because the people who pay money for the books are voting where it matters – with their wallets.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Oh, believe me, I was being facetious. I’m still upset over how they succeeded at finally making Steve Trevor interesting… only to unceremoniously dump him so Supes and Wondy can get it on.

    I don’t want them together in a relationship AT ALL. The only time I thought them being together worked in any was at the end of Kingdom Come, and that’s because it showcased in a completely unconventional way that they work best as old friends, NOT as steamy lovers.

    And that’s the aspect I want to see more of: how Wonder Woman and Superman are BEST FRIENDS.

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, I don’t understand what you said. I’ll try and make as much sense of it as I can.

    TWILIGHT is a fantasy for young teenage girls where Edward is the sexual gatekeeper (IE he is the one who is chaste and innocent), which allows Bella to be the pursuer. TWILIGHT is not a good piece of fiction, but there is a reason it resonates with it’s audience, and it’s in that it’s an outlet for young girls to unlease their desires and pursue them in a society where, if you did that in real life, you would be considered a “slut.” Her dynamic with Jacob is that, in contrast to Edward, he is masculine and aggressive, but Bella has the power in their relationship, telling him firmly, “No.” Bella is an awful character in that she doesn’t really have a character (she’s something of a tabula rasa with no real definable characteristics beyond her cluminess), but she is in charge of her relationships.

    The Batman/Wonder Woman relationship barely explored in a few issues of JLA by Joe Kelly may have some simularity in that Wonder Woman was portrayed as the pursuer, but the difference to me is that Batman was receptive, and actually benefitted from it. Batman is socially maladjusted in that he drives most people off and has profound trust issues outside of his immediate circle of friends, so seeing him in a relationship where a woman has to draw him out I find romantic. Others may not.

    As I read your argument, it seems that, as compared to what you state above, you find the idea of a Batman/Wonder Woman coupling abhorent, but not a Superman/Wonder Woman coupling, which you define as “shaking up the status quo”? How is one groundbreaking, if unpopular, and the other not?

    This is all speculative anyways, because DC already ignored the Joe Kelly’s continuity even before the New-52, because they seem to fear the idea of a relationship where the woman has the power, particularly in relation to Batman.

  • Anonymous

    In response to a fan’s question about if Steve Trevor and Wonder Woman had ever had sex, Soule’s response was, “Of course they boned…he’s the first man she’s ever seen.” (Might be paraphrasing, but I believe that is close to the orginal quote).

    I believe that’s what MonkeyPants2230 is referencing.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Yeah, in a perfect world where this was just a team-up book, and not a “steamy romance” comic, what WOULD their villains be? What villains would play well of them?

    Why can’t DC being asking THESE types of questions?

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, but who here has said they are speaking for anyone but themselves? You have yet to point to the sources you are are referencing of a female fandom that supports this book. And if they do, good for them. I believe one commenter in this thread has come out in support…and they are not wrong to support a title that appeals to them.

    This does not change the fact that most of the reactions we’ve seen here and in other forums has been mostly negative, and a lot of that stems from the language used in the promotion of the book, such as that referenced in the article above.

    Your stance still seems to be that you’re just angry that anyone is saying anything, which isn’t a very strong argument.

  • frodobatmanvader

    Oh, the old “Voting with their wallets” arguments! Here we go…


    There *is,* however, a lot of indication that the comic will either be met with derision (such as on this site) or a collective “meh,” such as the ENTIRE COMIC BOOK INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE. And the fact the Superman/Wonder Woman covers have generated a lot of discussion is NOT proof that all of that discussion is good.

    And, yes, you did move the goal-posts, at least as far as your disagreement with Laura was concerned: she took issue with you referring to this as a good example of supernatural romance, you tried to defend it by saying “it’s an example of a mature relationship” and Laura rightly pointed out that usually Mature Relationships in Reality =/= Dramatic Relationships in Fiction.

  • Stephanie Eversole Vandenburg

    As a woman who doesn’t read comics, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with it not being “romantic” or being too much “for guys.” It has everything to do with not knowing where the heck to START.

    When I was a kid, I wasn’t allowed to read comic books, because my parents were very old-fashioned and believed comic books were for boys, so I got Barbie instead. I got in big trouble when I was caught with an X-Men Uncanny comic one time.

    Now as an adult, I would have no idea where to even begin, and when I walk into the local comic book store, I’m given dirty looks, like I’m not supposed to be there. So no help from those guys!

    Maybe instead of creating books that will attract the “Twilight” crowd, they should help women understand the comic book world a little bit more and make them feel more comfortable, like they won’t be labeled with all that “fake geek girl” nonsense if they try.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “because the people who pay money for the books are voting where it matters – with their wallets.”

    Well, yes. Yes, that is rather the point. And an awful lot of those wallets are staying closed. Or opening for Marvel books.

    You keep saying “power couple” like that’s a buzzword that actually means something. Lois and Clark is as much a power couple as Superman/Wonder Woman. But mostly, it sounds like a nonsense word that you can just say with jazz hands. It has no more meaning than “couple.”

    But in terms of their similarity, AS upthread phrased it much better than I did: “more het romance between two white people who have analogous superpowers with no obvious source of conflict.”

    They’re analogues. They always have been. It makes for less-than-interesting romance (and here is the important clause)–FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A WOMAN WANTING TO READ ROMANCE. There’s no inherent romantic tension that DEFINES “romance fiction” present in them as a couple.

    I didn’t say anyone said to take the plot of Twilight or anything. My point has been that this reads as though they’re looking at Twilight as something that is successful with women, but they’re completely missing the point as to *WHY* it’s successful.

    That is the biggest bone of contention here. Anything else is a smokescreen.

  • Laura Truxillo

    Oooohh, I get it, you’re a troll. Not because you disagree with me (to head that off at the pass), but because you’re refusing to apparently believe that he said or wrote some really sexist crap and that he behaved like a dickhole. He did.

    He tainted himself. He used a really gross phrase and became furious when people tried to explain to him why it was a bad thing to say. I’m from the South–I encounter people like that all the time.

    Oh, yes, and it should go without saying that it doesn’t really matter how “hard” a creator works to make something–if that something is unapologetically problematic, or just plain bad, then…yeah, sorry, in the grown-up world, you don’t get points for “working hard” on something. Just for making something good, and possibly for not being a jerk.

  • Anonymous

    There is, of course, nothing wrong with romance. I think romance and relationships should be encouraged in superhero comics. One of my favorite books of the last decade was SPIDER-MAN LOVES
    MARY-JANE (excellent book with art by Takeshi Miyazawa, one of my
    favorite artists). Look at Matt Fraction’s HAWKEYE, which presents some very complex relationships between men and women, and does not shy away from the fact that Clint Barton is sort of awful. It’s pretty honest.

    My problem with this book isn’t the focus on romance, but that I think their take on it will make Wonder Woman look weak. Look at the image used in the article…Superman is ABOVE Wonder Woman. He’s in the foreground and she’s in the background. Even his NAME comes first in the title.

    I’m not against their relationship on general principle, but I don’t think it’s cool to portray your feminist icon as being secondary to the most idealized man in fiction. I don’t think this will be a narrative where they are equals, given how their relationship is portrayed in JUSTICE LEAGUE (Clark is basically teaching Diana how to live as a human in man’s world, when he himself has been characterized by Morrison as being distant, aloof, and alien), but where Superman is leading the relationship, and I found that wholly offputting.

    But, of course, I could be wrong. Maybe Charle Soule will ignore everything that has been written about them as a couple so far, and it’ll be cool. I just don’t see any evidence to support that at this point, given how awful most of the New-52 has been, in my opinion.

  • John Burkhart

    Honestly, I think if we want to see the kind of story we actually want, we might need to write & draw it ourselves.

    I’d be open to it. I’m a writer (at least, a want-to-be. See Redeemer’s Oath). Anyone want to try putting a superhero Webcomic out there?

    If we say there’s a demand, we should try to fill it.

  • Sophie

    I’m sorry comics have felt so unwelcoming to you so far. On a practical level, if you want to start reading I don’t mind giving you some advice. It’s not so hard once you get into the swing of things. Just tell me what sort of genres and stories you like. You don’t even have to go into a comic shop. My nearest is miles away, so I get all my comics online.

  • John Burkhart

    For what it’s worth, I’m dead serious about this. I love writing, but have no artistic talent at all. Surely there’s someone in the Mary Sue community who might be willing to collaborate (probably follow the Erfworld model of: Free Webcomic and try to sell print books).

    If so, contact me: (Redeemer’s Oath is a self published fantasy novel)

  • Thomas Hayes

    I went to my first comic shop on Thursday and it was pretty welcoming. I had to go out of my way into my nearest city to find one, comic shops are rare in Britain, so I was looking online first and liked the look of it. Obviously I am a bloke so wouldn’t be judged for my gender, but both of the staff I dealt with in the room with the longboxes of floppies and the trade paperbacks on shelves were women, and nobody gave any funny looks to my sister who was with me. See if you can find one that’s got a decent looking online presence and that has a staff list online so you can see what kind of people you’ll be talking to there, that might be reassuring. There’s always digital comics too if you’d rather not go out of your way to buy physical ones. That option is particularly attractive if you’re an iPad owner because comics are great on one of those, or on a really big monitor!

  • Thomas Hayes

    Captain Marvel FTW. By the way, if you’re not already reading Avengers Assemble after the Enemy Within arc, definitely check it out this month, as Spider-Woman is centre stage in this story. Good to get into her head after seeing her so much from Carol’s perspective in CM.

  • Anonymous

    Not every store is the same, but your experience is not an uncommon one. If brick and mortar stores don’t work for you, there is, of course, the digital solution, and a lot of sites online, such as this one and DCWOMENKICKINGASS.TUMBLR.COM that have communities that can help direct you to stuff you may enjoy.

    That’s not to say that this isn’t a problem that doesn’t need to be addressed. Comics has been seen as a boys club for decades, and some stores/communities are still behind the times, but I can assure you that there are also stores that are welcoming and helpful (such as the one I work at in Toronto, the Beguiling), and I hope you can find one near you.

  • HeroOfGames16

    Wait, he’s… is he literally going to use Twilight for his motivation and influence on making a romance story? Excuse me, but is he mentally insane? Well he is if he’s going to pull off a Twilight in this upcoming graphic novel (comic book).

  • Thomas Hayes

    This is one of the few positive comments I’ve seen echoed more than once about anything Joe Kelly brought to Supergirl. The more prolific Supergirl fan blogs I’ve read tend to point to his tenure on the book as one of, if not the, lowest points the character has ever been taken to and while he was writing the book it lost around 75% of its readership. I’m plan to get around to reading ALL of the 2005-2011 series at some point to decide for myself. What did you think of his run compared to Loeb’s before and Puckett and Gates afterwards?

  • Thomas Hayes

    DC does have form in this regard. Check this commentary on bizarre words from Eddie Berganza about Supergirl way back in 2007:

  • Anonymous


    Not that I had any expectations anymore after the cover but that Twilight analogy and the whole “don’t worry, there will be equal opportunity objectification” answer really takes the cake.

    Don’t get me wrong, other comic books have succeeded in pairing up supers without making sex slaves of the female characters before, but they weren’t starting out with this Twilight envy/idea that “what women want” is idiotic cliché paper back romance.

  • Thomas Hayes

    I think there is a Wonder Woman/Batwoman arc in Batwoman around now. I’m so going to buy that when it’s out in hardcover!

  • Anonymous

    This has nothing to do with being “butthurt” and “spiteful” but nice try there.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “I kinda wish she had been more forward because I think it would have forced them to really think about things.”

    I kinda thought the same thing, but honestly, I think I wouldn’t have done much better in her situation. There’s heavy pressure to play nice when folks make a show of extending an olive branch. And really, it didn’t seem like they were that interested in hearing what she really wanted so much as assuring her that their product is something she (or Women) want.

  • Laura Truxillo

    People are doing exactly that. We have lots of women (and men) making the sorts of comics we want to see.

    But in terms of the Wonder Woman comic we want to see…that’s a thing that we’re not getting as much of. (Although at least the romance hasn’t bled through into her title.)

  • Anonymous

    Joe Kelly was working off of what Jeph Loeb left him, which was a mess…but he worked with what he had and what the editorial mandate at the time was, which was “Supergirl as an angry, disenfranchised, modern teen struggling with power.” Given what he had to work with, he actually produced a book I was pretty happy with…though it wasn’t very “Supergirl.” Which he even acknowledged in a very meta way within the narrative by having the Loeb created Supergirl fight a manifestation of the classic Supergirl, who represented all the things that she failed to live up too.

    Kelly’s Supergirl was a young women struggling to live up to an impossible legacy that she had never asked for, on a world that was alien to her, in a culture that had expectations of what she should be. Kelly wrote Supergirl as a woman who never had a choice in whether she wanted to be Supergirl or not, before she even knew who she was. So she rebelled.

    This is part of what made her relationship with Captain Boomerang II (JR?) fasinating…it was a slow burn romance. They started out as friends, and she confided in him because they shared a similar experience; Captain Boomerang II had only recently found out about his legacy and was forced into it. His father was a villain, and people lumped his father’s sins on him. So to rebel against that, he tried to be a hero.

    I won’t say it was perfect, but I really liked it, given what he had inherited. It was all based in character, and she drove her own narrative, which was about an angry young woman trying to figure out who she was and what she wanted to do, when everyone else around her wanted to tell her who she was and what they expected her to be.

    The Puckett/Gates run was bascially a sudden change in editorial mandate to return Supergirl back to her good-girl origins as Geoff John’s gained increasing creative input at DC and started reinstating more and more classic continuity. It’s a little weird because they kept the new Supergirl origin in continuity, but basically ignored anything that had been established about her character to that point.

    I enjoyed it. It was horribly inconsistant a lot of the time, and Pluckett meandered a bit, but I really liked the story where Supergirl promises a young boy she’ll cure his cancer, because it deals with an issue that most people handwave in superhero comics…the things Supergirl CAN’T save you from.

    Gates got caught up in that God awful RETURN OF KRYPTON crossover, so the focus wasn’t so much on Kara as it was on the stuff going on around her, and editorial seemed to want to portray her as Superman if he made nothing but mistakes. It humanized her and made her seem relatable and very much a teenager, but I just couldn’t get on board with all that awful crossover noise.

    I actually grudgingly like the New-52 Supergirl, though it’s horribly inconsistant as well, and her costume is sort of awful, despite how well Mommad Asar draws her.

    Does that help? That’s just one man’s opinion.

  • John Burkhart

    Where are they? I’d like to support them.

  • Anonymous

    It also sounded like the crowd did not have her back, and that she was a bit flustered by how often she was cut off and being grilled by three different people. I’m terrible at public speaking, and I know I would have been red-faced and mumbling if it had been me in that position. I think she was brave.

  • Thomas Hayes

    Thanks for sharing. You’ve mentioned most of the things which have put me off reading that series so far – the early stories look like a mess, I don’t really want to read angry, angsty Kara (I like positive characters), the retcons in continuity and finally the big New Krypton crossover, which drags all over the otherwise widely recommended Gates run. If you can see something decent in the angsty Kara issues, maybe I will as well when I finally dive into this mess. I have only read a few issues of the run – namely the last two arcs, “Good Looking Corpse” and the one by Kelly Sue DeConnick. I really liked both of those and the Supergirl in them. She’s good in Superman/Batman #62 and #77 as well.

    Given how confusing this all was, I actually went New52 first. And I really like it! I don’t feel it’s that inconsistent, it’s just that she can’t catch a break (especially this week, my jaw nearly dropped right off reading #23) and I loved Asrar’s art. I too could have lived without Jim Lee putting a red triangle over her crotch, I wonder what he was smoking when he thought that up. I’m definitely on board with this Kara, I feel she’s a very sympathetic protagonist. She could do with a bigger supporting cast though.

    One more question for you – a lot of the articles and comments I’ve seen on blogs covering Supergirl are by men. By no means all, for sure, but sometimes I get the impression we’re overwhelmingly dominating the fanbase of a character who should have a lot of appeal to women. Have you ever noticed this?

  • Anonymous

    Faith Erin Hicks, proud Canadian sistah, for one! She’s got a lot of great books.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, that’s my main beef with the book…my favorite issues where the ones with Kara and the new Silver Banshee, and her brother. I was so excited when I thought they’d be rooming together, because they had a great dynamic and there was potential for romance, and Silver Banshee reimagined as a punk-goth folk singer with mystical powers (plus she looks DOPE when she transforms!) really worked for me. Plus, I always like things where superheroes are mashed up against the mundane…I love the idea of Supergirl living in a crappy apartment with her girlfriend and her hunky brother. Then they wrote all that out (I’m a bit behind, because I’m a trade waiter, so I don’t know if they change any of that).

    What I find inconsistant is that they can’t seem to settle on what Supergirl is supposed to do. She just sort of goes from thing to thing with no real direction. I’d like to see her try and make a life in the book.

  • Thomas Hayes

    I agree with everything you just said actually. I loved those issues too, but it looks like the H’el on Earth crossover (which I just skipped over) ruined that. I liked those characters and so want that to be the status quo for Supergirl. We’re not the only ones either, I assure you.

  • Anonymous

    Check out the first two TPB’s of Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner’s POWER GIRL. It’s pre-New-52 and quite painfully trunacated, but that is the most fun you will have in 12 issues of comics!

  • John Burkhart

    Not that I don’t like Superherogirladventures (By all means, I recommend it as a funny comic.

    But it’s not what I’m talking about.

    What is a title (say, like Molly Danger – if there was more than one issue) where there is the kind of female led action adventure book you would like?

    The kind of story Wonder Woman *should* be, so to speak. If there’s a book out there like that, I’d like to support it.

  • Anonymous

    CAPTAIN MARVEL, Brian Wood’s X-MEN, AMERICAN VAMPIRE, MARA, SAGA, GLORY, BATWOMAN, Gail Simone’s RED SONJA. I know it’s manga, but I really like A CERTAIN SCIENTIFIC RAILGUN a lot. That’s off the top of my head…I’m sure other will have more to add.

    There’s also the books that have unfortunately been cancelled already, but you can still support as a way of supporting female lead books, RED SHE-HULK and JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY featuring Sif.

  • Thomas Hayes

    That was my comics gateway drug, DT! Karen & Atlee were great.

  • Anonymous

    CAPTAIN MARVEL, Brian Wood’s X-MEN and MARA, SAGA, GLORY, BATWOMAN, WORLD’S FINEST, AMERICAN VAMPIRE, Ed Brubaker’s FATALE, Gail Simone’s RED SONJA, the upcoming Image book ROCKET GIRL with amazing art by Amy Reeder. I know it’s manga, but I like A CERTAIN SCIENTIFIC RAILGUN a lot.

    They’re unfortunately cancelled now, but you can still support female lead books by picking up the TPB’s of JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY featuring Sif and RED SHE-HULK.

  • Anonymous

    You got good taste, buddy. ^_~

  • Anonymous

    Ummm…..I love romance. I loved Lois and Clark. Then DC destroyed their marriage for this stunt. I do not appreciate the sexism and misogny involved with that. I would buy this book…..if it was about Lois and Clark and Steve/Diana. I will not buy a romance I find insulting.

  • Anonymous

    It’s really alarming that a person in any position of power over storytelling thinks “Twilight = good,” or, better yet, “Twilight = romance.” Yet, the inarticulateness of his comment is by far the most alarming. If you don’t know about a thing, don’t talk about a thing, and by god don’t make a thing that someone publishes.

    Sure, you want those teenage girl dollars on the cheap…but that’s not your audience. Comic book readers are top of the test scores smart; Twilight fans by and large have their character stat points more evenly distributed, let us say.

    On the other hand, I’m interested in what Lee said. He actually interrupted to say, “Wait, wait. It’s a girl. With real opinions. And answers.” He
    handled the situation the most maturely of any of them. I just wish Ms. Liz had stated
    the issue more concisely. She kind of danced around it. (“Are you making a romance for men or a romance for women? Twilight is not a romance for women. It is a romance for idiots. You know that, right?”)

    As a publishing professional it continues to be a rude shock that DC staff say things like, “We will make this product for you, and you will like it. See?”, and think this is a business model that will keep the company open. The best creators are humble; they say, “I made this and I hope you’ll like it. It came from the heart, and I think that resonates in today’s world. It is my sincerest hope that you’ll buy it too, to keep me fed.” (Consider Neil Gaimann.) I mean, you can have your cake and eat it too, but some self-awareness and humility is necessary if DC wants to survive.

    I feel bad for all the girls that like American comics and want something great to read, but can’t find it. That’s the real tragedy here, and as book creators in a majorly looked-down-upon medium, you’d think helping the fellow disenfranchised would be their first priority, were they self-aware of their markets as a company. But, given what Lee said, seems someone’s starting to notice, after two years of constant backlash on every corner of the internet and in-person. And con panels are a great way to force their hand–they can’t just say “no women are allowed to ask questions.”

    As someone I know said, “It’s not just that DC can’t get it right. It’s that there are plenty of people who CAN do it right, and WANT to do it for DC, and DC’s not letting them.” Sigh.

  • Anonymous

    All of these themes were already explored to great success with Lois Lane. She was the superior at work. She was ahead of him. Diana fights with a sword. Lois fought with her job. That’s part of why this is insulting. This steals themes from a 75 year old love story and just inserts a hotter woman. This is not Superman’s story and its not Wonder Woman’s story. This is franchise dilution.

  • Thomas Hayes

    I’m with you on that inarticulateness there. He says “For want of a better example”. That’s kind of a clue he knows absolutely sod all about romance fiction specifically and broader fiction that also has romance in it in general, isn’t it?

  • Anonymous

    See, that’s a really interesting thing too. When women are sexualized, men lose out too. (And I, frankly, know a lot of guys that don’t identify with the muscle men portrayal of men’s bodies in most comics, too.)

    There’s a very small percentage of guys that want to read the Si Swimsuit Edition equivalent of comic books. You’re right, sir–you deserve a good story in your book. Demand it.

  • Anonymous

    Sounds like someone wanted to wear a dress but doesn’t want to admit it. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

  • margrave

    Man i feel dumb, when I first sent the email into TMS about this i said that I thought Daniels was going for a joke and it just landed wrong. I had no idea That Daniel had been saying all this stupid stuff beforehand.

    I would like to point out something that hadn’t been mentioned was around the 46 minute mark when the prospect of a Lois Lane series came up Lemire and Bermejo both raised their hands. (So did about 2/3 to 3/4 of the Audience Canadians are just too polite to be making a bunch of noise you know ;-)) Daniel didn’t raise his hand so make of that what you will.

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for your supportive comment. And I agree with you absolutely.

    As a writer, he should have his thumb on this sort of thing–the reception to Twilight, etc. Now I’m starting to wonder what his experience in romance is. (And I don’t mean that in a snide way.) I particularly don’t write romances, because I never read them and know very little about them. And…ya know? I’m honest about that. Doesn’t mean he can’t produce a good product; just means he needs to explain his process more for the audience to take his ability on faith.

  • Anonymous

    *Thumbs up back to you* Speak it, Preacher Man.

  • Adrian

    If DC wants to capture a romance fiction audience, why wouldn’t they hire a romance writer? Plus, all it takes is one look at Tumblr to see the one, big DC romance fans are shipping is Wonder Woman/Batman.

    As a dude, romance may not be immediately on my radar for what I want to see… but when I did see it crop up (like in the animated Justice League, and in Young Justice), I’m happy to admit, I eat it up. I loved the WW/Batman dynamic in Justice League; she’s reasonably aggressive about pursuing it and Batman, like always, is closed-off and cautious. I wanted to know, who’s will would win out? Conventional wisdom says Batman’s will over all others… but if anyone could get what she wanted, it’s Diana.

    My wife LOVED IT… and she consumes Harlequin romance novels like candy. She works in the publishing world as an assistant editor, is a Batman superfan and if DC wants to capitalize on this market, she is their target demographic. However, I think they failed to find out what that demographic wants… it appears the answer is Batman. In fact, my wife doesn’t like Superman, at all, lol. She did, however love the Superboy/MsMartian love story in Young Justice… and she was devastated when the show was cancelled. I feel like I could go on forever about this but I’m hoping she’ll comment herself soon.

    Lastly, from what I’ve seen and learned about the romance novel industry by proxy, there are just so many different readers and expectations within the romance market, that this requires a much smarter, more calculated move. Given that their first submission is simply taking two of the Trinity and throwing them together, I can’t help but feel like DC has clumsily thrown their hat into the ring without the due diligence entering into a new genre deserves.

    This feels LESS like what the readers want and more like what the writers are guessing might stick.

  • Laura Truxillo

    Captain Marvel has been slaying it. Also, Avengers Assembled, which is an ensemble cast, but features (especially lately) a lot of Cap and Spider-Woman, and something that I love–nice platonic friendships (Carol and Steve are great buddies). Fearless Defenders is pretty aces as well.

    Hawkeye may not be lady-led, but I think you’ll find that a good percentage of his buyers base consists of double-x-chromosomes. There’s something vastly appealing, not just about the character and his hard luck days, but about Aja’s simple and honest way of drawing people, and about Kate Bishop just being wonderful. Likewise, Young Avengers has some great ladies, and also some great non-het romance that isn’t over-hyped by PR.

    “The Legend of Bold Riley” has been getting an awful lot of play, and a lot of recs from people who’ve never steered me wrong yet (I haven’t gotten a copy yet, but it seems worth checking out). And though it’s only available for pre-order, “Delilah Dirk and the Turkish Lieutenant” looks very promising and I can’t wait for my copy.

    Which isn’t to say that the Wonder Woman book is bad. Overall, the story-telling on it’s been great, but I think a large chunk of folks who would be otherwise buying it (myself included) just threw in the towel when the whole, “Hey, Paradise Island is actually home to rapists and baby-murderers” storyline happened, because…well… while I doubt the writer meant to, there’s a seriously uncomfortable echo between that and the traditional conservative reaction to feminism, so…yeah…

  • margrave

    Lee Bermejo’s question to her about what she wanted to see came across to me as very sincere. i mean he’s not involved with the book, but I do think he wanted to know what she was looking for

  • margrave

    What I got from the twilight comment was something that is extremely popular with young women who are extremely devoted following, but then I know more about him now then I did at the time

  • Anonymous

    Hi! :)

    True. I think that’s what he meant too, at least at first. But later it becomes apparent (at least IMO) that he’s saying “Twilight is what young women want (in a sex-charged story).” But the Twilight audience and the DC women’s audience doesn’t hardly overlap. So to then say he understands romance for DC’s women’s audience because he understands Twilight (which has been critiqued as bad by nearly everyone of merit) makes me go back and question if he really understands the first issue. The way he then got very defensive at the panel (reportedly) filled in more of the picture for me, too, where the Twilight quote itself wouldn’t necessarily.

    It’s late so I’m not sure I’m explaining this well…does it make sense?

  • Alexa

    From a person who likes romance and superheroes, this is kind of insulting. I mean sure I like a good romance story, but I like one where its you know…Engaging, and not forced and only put there because the writers decided that was the best idea to get female readers, even though there is a possibility they had a female audience even before all of this nonsense.

    Really the only time a Superman Wonder Woman relationship worked was in Kingdom Come, and that was because the circumstances within that story made it possible and engaging, since that story was extremely well written and well meaning. Here it feels like one big cash grab. And really I don’t think Wonder Woman should be with with Batman or Superman, outside of Kingdom Come’s universe,and really they should all be friends and fight for justice and not who should be with who.

  • Erin Treat

    Yes you’re right with Batwoman being the exception yet again (and maybe Batgirl although I haven’t been keeping up with it.). But as I’ve said before, I live in constant fear they’ll mess her up too.

  • Veronica Cristina

    they didn’t attacked him, just tried to talk and raise awareness about the offensive term “friendzone”.
    About Soule, I think he placed pepper in a wound. wrong words at wrong time

  • Anonymous

    I’ll just leave it alone. I found that whole series abysmally written and their version of Clark thoroughly unlikable. But then I found their Lois incompetent and unlikable as well.

  • Anonymous

    I found the Smallville romance pretty horribly written, much like the rest of the show. Terribly irritating characters having a terribly irritating romance. I found myself wanting them together only so they wouldn’t be inflicted on other characters. The comics might be different, I haven’t bothered with them. I also didn’t get a lot of passion out of Man of Steel, but then that felt so rote. It was there because it was expected to be there. Paint by numbers.

    I find the silver age comics more hilarious than romantic, and while Lois does all kinds of stupid for “love” things she does them for comedy. A lot of the stories had a strong nasty streak in them, as Lois tries to trap Superman into marriage. Nothing I’ve ever seen of them in the comics has ever stolen my breath and left me panting.

    They seem to consistently come off as genuinely mad about one another, cute, with a good banter and comfortable romantic ease. It’s a more tame romance, and that’s fine.

  • Suzanne Larsen

    he’s one of those guys that plays female characters in games because “if I have to stare at an ass all day it should be a female one” . The sad thing is, he’s a game developer so the next generation of games will be made by people with this same mindset.

  • Anonymous

    Twilight is successful – analysis of that success is another skill set – but again you confuse the broader notion of the creative process that takes cues from pop culture to produce something new – and assume Daniel’s casual reference means DC wants to slavishly recreate something that is derivative of Twilight.

    I never disputed that a lot of fiction, Romantic and otherwise, has the Powerful Hero and weak Damsel, but that doesn’t mean all Romances, all Paranormal Romances must be a slave to that trope.

    For example “the Super-man” emerged as villain in Siegel’s earliest story, Others will point to the anti-hero Wylie’s Hugo Danner and suggest this is a proto Superman – what Siegel actually did was turn the idea of a super-man from a type of Frankenstein’s Monster into a pure heroic figure. Hence a work can be related to say for want of a better example Twilight in terms of genre, sub genre, and yet be the antithesis in terms of story and characters, much like Hugo Danner and Superman,

    What I argue, my own observation, is that couples in fiction have emerged recently in a way that hasn’t been seen for a long time, if ever, and the pop culture label power couple works because it relates to the equality of standing these fictional pairings demonstrate. This is a break from the past, Part of that process has been the rise of female hero in urban fantasy and elsewhere.

    And yes I believe people are voting with their wallets, and that DC follows the sales numbers, which is why they are launching this book, because they believe – on the basis of the metrics they have – that it will sell, and sell well.

  • Alan Kistler

    there’s a lot here to find depressing.

  • Anonymous

    DiDido has made it clear DC follows sales, We don’t have all the numbers, especially digital, but it stands to reason DC wouldn’t launch a book featuring two huge names if they weren’t confident – because of metrics they already have – will sell.

    If it doesn’t – then I’m wrong, they’re wrong, and it will get axed. That’s business.

    I didn’t move any goal posts any where, I responded – in a conversation – directly to a point Laura raised.

    That you both miss the point is no surprise, since you missed the point from the get go. A story can be inspired – take cues from, borrow from a popular work without slavishly duplicating every aspect of that story. Indeed it can be the very antithesis of the plot in both events and characterisation – and still be inspired by and in the same genre / sub genre as the original work.

    So a story where both Protagonists from the get go are equals is something new(ish), but as I’ve argued fits the current Zeitgeist, part of an evolutionary process – and moreover it’s better because it isn’t the same old same old story where the very powerful man swoops down to save the brave but relatively weak woman from something evil.
    To me that’s a good thing. YMMV.

  • Jeyl

    “The good news is we got Wonder Woman right.”

    I’m just a fan with an opinion, and I couldn’t disagree more with that statement. This “New 52″ Wonder Woman has been the most female unfriendly comic I’ve ever read when compared to the pre-”New 52″ Wonder Woman. I just, how can you take all the Amazons who were good characters in their own right and turn ALL OF THEM into murdering savages who condone child slavery in hellish conditions because they’re so incompetent they can’t even make their own weapons and armor? How is this an improvement?

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, but he sounds awful.

  • Anonymous

    This page from JLA #90, written by Joe Kelly, drawn by Chris Cross:

    Faith asks Wonder Woman if she has ever entertained feelings for Superman, and Wonder Woman literally LAUGHS IN HER FACE.

    Of course, this was written at a time when they were teasing the idea of a Wonder Woman/Batman relationship, which was the crux of this particular issue, which I really enjoyed.

    Just though people might enjoy this. ^_^

  • Anonymous

    Who says that DC knows better than we fans? These are also only people making decisions and some are just plain stupid and only in the interest to generate higher sales rates. Does that make their decisions more justified? I don’t think so.

    And I don’t value change for change’s sake. Besides, while I’m obviously no superhero, I feel very awkward having characters starting a relationship who are supposed in a firm relationship.

    I for my case wouldn’t see anything great in my partner sleeping with others. But each his or her own. I don’t think that “creativity” is an excuse for anything nor should it be.

  • Anonymous

    You keep saying that, but you haven’t sited any evidence beyond narratives in a different medium and genre, that have nothing to do with the actual point of reference that the creative team behind the book have provided. You keep arguing things that they never said.

    Your point would be valid if Charles Soule, Tony Daniel, or DC Editorial had pitched this book saying, “It’s going to be like Bones or Castle or Moonlighting…they’re a couple in the workplace. They are professionals and lovers.” That is not the example given, this is, “…that hits on the Twilight audience.”

    Your argument is that they’re going to go after the TWILIGHT audience without using the tropes that appeal to that audience, and present a relationship that is nothing like the one the one in TWILIGHT, the example that they’ve sited as their model for the type of narrative they want present. Where did they say that? This is what they said, “You know, millions of people went to see those in the theaters because it has those kind of, you know, subject matter. The drama, the characterization with love triangles and forbidden love and things like that.” That is what they have said they are trying to do with the book…which does not jive with the approach you are pushing.

    You are pushing your agenda, not theirs. You are reading a subtext that has no evidence thus far to back it up in all the promotion I’ve seen for the book, which is being billed as a TWILIGHT style romance targeted at a female demographic. Frankly, I’d rather read YOUR Superman/Wonder Woman book than theirs right now.

  • Anonymous

    You know what’s unfortunate? I think Charles Soule seems like a nice man but he just really doesn’t get it AT ALL either.

    He wrote a long blog post a few months ago responding to how upset people were with this new book and basically argued that the book was positive because it can be good to have relationships before you are with the person you marry? Which….is true. But is also NOT THE POINT HERE.

    I don’t think anyone objects to Superman or Wonder Woman dating other people. I think he missed completely that what people object to is that these two characters fundamentally SHOULD NOT BE in engaged in a romantic relationship for various reasons, many of which have to do with GENDER.

    He also missed that it wasn’t just that people wanted Superman with Lois….it was that women were fundamentally OFFENDED with the way DC Comics had tossed Lois Lane out with the trash.

    He was a nice guy but just….clueless.

  • Anonymous

    Well said! I can’t really add anything…you pretty much summed it up.

  • Anonymous

    No, Charles YOU miss the point. You also are not in the demo. You are neither young nor female so it’s not at all a shock that you don’t seem to get it.

    The major problem is that you continue to define equality as if it’s something that can be “measured” by the physical body as opposed to what is in a person’s soul.

    You assume that women that don’t fight with a sword are somehow less “equal” than those who fight with their minds.

    You have the audacity to continue to paint women like Lois Lane as “weak” despite her brain and her job and all the other traits that women find inspiring about her.

    These stories don’t succeed bc the female in question isn’t an equal. The whole point is that in a culture that continually judges women solely by the physical and still treats them like crap…there is a person who sees beyond the physical and treats you like you are special. Who sees the power WITHIN YOU.

  • Anonymous

    You’d have a point if Daniel or Soule had said “We’re going to go after the TWILIGHT audience” – or we’re going to do a DC version of Twilight – but they didn’t.

    What they actually say “And maybe a book that has a little bit of romance in it, a little big of
    sex appeal, you know, something that would, for lack of a better
    example, that hits on the Twilight audience.”
    Twilight was chosen “for lack of a better
    example” which is a back handed way of saying it doesn’t accurately exemplify what they are trying to do.

    What Daniel actually said is the book is going to have a “a little bit of romance in it, a little big of
    sex appeal” that’s not even a *lot* of romance or a *lot* of sex appeal.
    Further “[Diana] is very strongly written, she’s not, you know, I mean she holds her own.
    And you’re going to like the interaction between Superman and Wonder
    Woman and as well as their private lives, Diana and Clark.”
    Which is nothing like the plot of Twilight or the characterisation of Bella.
    You’re assuming the Twilight audience, all the people who read the books and saw the movies are only interested in a carbon copy stories.
    I don’t believe that for a moment, but even if that’s true of most of them, it still leaves a significant minority who will be exploring related genre products – other paranormal romance stories featuring super-powered beings fighting with fantastic and mystical beings.

  • Anonymous

    True I am neither young nor female, but I will be buying the book.You are making things up about me – again, which is appalling abusive behaviour.

  • Laura Truxillo

    “You have the audacity to continue to paint women like Lois Lane as
    “weak” despite her brain and her job and all the other traits that women
    find inspiring about her.”

    I think that’s been one of the most appalling things about this whole conversation. His constant slotting of words like “swooning” and the like in reference to characters who don’t have superpowers.

    And the more I think about it, the more it highlights exactly why Lois is such an amazing character.

    Unless you count a few schoolyard bully fights, I was rarely told not fight because it wasn’t “lady-like.” Wonder Woman is a great character, but most girls don’t grow up being told not to act like her. She has super-powers, of course she can fight crime.

    Lois, though…I think a lot of little girls grow up being told: don’t question what people tell you, don’t demand answers, don’t demand satisfaction, it’s not lady-like to put yourself in a position where you compete with or challenge men, don’t be so forceful you shrew, etc etc.

    Wonder Woman’s battles play out on a grander, more mythological scale than most of us would see, but Lois–Lois is the everyday battles that girls and women fight growing up. And even though Lois isn’t “lady-like” at all, she’s still amazing, she’s still a hero, and she still holds the heart of THE quintessential American hero and…I really want to go read some old Lois and Clark stuff now.

  • White Rose Brian

    Let me just paraphrase what I said on Eschergirls. Quite a few people have convincingly argued that DC is currently run by a
    bunch of incompetents, from the flawed handling of the big reboot to
    the handling of the DC movies. This bolsters that argument.

  • Anonymous

    And you read all four volumes of Twilight? Because unless you did, you wouldn’t realize that the story is how a normal girl became the most powerful being on Earth. Which is pretty, uh, superhero-y, if you ask me.

    The problem with the “love story” of Twilight wasn’t the storyline; it’s that it is not really a love story. Not that romantic elements aren’t a big part of the story (they are), but that their point had little to do with “romance” per se.

    If it was just a romance (as so many haters would have it be, in a classic “straw man” argument) the plot itself would have gone very differently.

    Instead, Twilight was an extended allegory on searching for the divine in the modern world.

    The first book was originally (primarily?) sold in Utah religious book stores. It spread to other religious book stores around the country, primarily in the Bible Belt, and spread to the secular world from there. The series remains most popular in the most religious areas of the country/world, e.g.: . Hence the big, extended, dramatic build-ups to… specific religious discussions (as opposed to, say, sex).

    Pro-tip: When a first-person narrator describes another character “angelic,” “god-like,” “heavenly,” “a Greek god,” “otherworldly,” and “perfect” — over and over and over and over — it’s a suggestion that they aren’t just, say, “kind of cute,” which would have been more than enough for any romance story.

    It’s not enough to have attractive people, or vampires, or love triangles, or forbidden love, etc., as story elements to garner huge/devoted appeal. Spectacle and surprising story elements can be fun, yet *allegory* (that many people can relate deeply with) is always going to be not only the scaffolding — but the ultimate appeal — of any hugely popular story.

    I hope the good folks at DC recognize this about Twilight — and their other stories (books and movies).

  • Anonymous

    God, well done Liz for standing up and challenging them on this. I can spout off on the internet till the cows come home on issues like these but I’d be a complete coward about putting myself out there in this kind of scenario, where you know its a possibility you’re going to get shouted down and booed by the audience, or bullied and patronised by the speakers themselves. Or both. I’m glad the rest of the audience here seemed to be supportive of her points.

    Liz got a good dollop of the patronising speaker scenario (she asks if comic book writers think female readers are only interested in boys and romance, and they say ‘Superman butt shots’? Well, that’s one way of giving her a clear answer) but she kept on in there. That’s awesome.

    Tony Daniel… yeeeaaaahhhh less so.

  • Brett W

    “Well, you guys keep going on and on about how all the female superheroes are sexualized and it’s not fair and blah blah blah. So you know what you get? Superman butt shots. You happy? Now shut up. MUHAHAHAHAHA!”

  • Not So Young Democrat

    Does anyone actually want to see Superman and Wonder Woman together? I can’t be the only one who gets a “kissing your sister” vibe from the image of the two of them making out. I mean what in either of their characters suggests that they’d think of the other one as a romantic possibility?

  • Vovo

    And do tell how do you know women have not responded well to the Superman/Wonder Woman coupling? Was there a live survey taken where it was obvious that all women asked were against it?

    Just like there are some women who oppose it, I’m sure there are others who feel the opposite.

    By the way, if you said some women have not responded well, I would find absolutely no wrong in that because it would be accurate and not an attempt to stretch your opinion into a fact.

  • Anonymous

    Well, this is all new continuity. So they’re free to mangle either character in new and unique ways.

  • Anonymous

    I thought DC already had a book with a Superman/Wonder Woman story. Didn’t it revolve around every normal human dying but the supers? And then the Supers ended up becoming normal so they had to rebuilt society? And Captain Marvel was an Adult and wanted Wonder Woman as well? And Superman and Wonder Woman had a kid they named Bruce?
    I know this exists I just can’t remember the title of it.

  • Anonymous

    Give me a good story arc with action & character development. I love the current wonder woman book, despite its slight dragging. It is built off of Greek mythology & is enhanced to fit wonder woman’s mythos into the mix. Wonder woman is written in a very human way; you can empathize with her in spite of her powers & other-worldly problems the way you can with the original Greek gods & goddesses, who have so many issues they sound like a Springer Christmas special. Give me something of this calibre–with the art to match it & not tons of poster style fill pages–& I might consider spending $3.99 an issue for the first few issues.

  • Anonymous

    “They are marketing a romance book for men at women.” Yes. THIS. It’s exactly what they’re doing. There are more geeks in the romance reading crowd than you’d might think but this romance? Isn’t going to do it. Lois/Clark might have.

  • Anonymous

    You mean like Dick and Donna? Oh, wait…the first has his history completely altered and the other doesn’t exist any longer. So much for that.

  • frodobatmanvader

    (facepalms) Ye-e-eah… have we mentioned lately how much DC sucks right now? ‘Cause by this point, I don’t even think it’s a debate.

  • Raiden

    Well. . . . it’s not the first time they’ve gotten together. But it seems every time someone tries to do a Superman/Wonder Woman romance in Canon, it usually fails. Frank Miller tried twice, in Dark Knight Strikes Again, and All Star Batman and Robin. Both are mostly terrible, and from what I’ve read here. . . I’m not optimistic for that trend to change.

    I’m still open to it, because it does have potential. A romance between gods? That’s the kind of stuff that made stories like the Greek myths timeless.

    But it’s likely going to be terrible. If there is going to be a Superman/Wonder Woman romance it needs to be done right.

  • Stephanie Eversole Vandenburg

    DTHalliday, I live in the GTA. :) I’ll have to look up your store sometime and come in.

  • Anonymous

    Please do! The Beguiling is at Bathurst and Bloor, on Markham Street, right beside Honest Ed’s. If you have children, we also have a store aimed at children on Bathurst and Lennox called Little Island Comics, which specializes in children and teen books and does library outreach.

    At the Beguiling, superhero stuff and manga is on the second floor, European and Indie comics are on the first floor. If you are on the second floor Chris, Parrish, Alex, Paul, or Jerry (depending on the day you go in) will be able to help you with recomendations or finding product, on the first floor Peter, Gennieve, or Chris can help you.

  • Jamie Jeans

    Hey guys, remember when Marvel Comics did this with Firestar, Captain Marvel, Black Cat, and Hell Cat?

    Remember how good that series was because it was about Sex in the City Marvel style? And how well that sold? And how that’s what women wanted since the Sex in the City movie was so damned successful?

    And how that series is STILL running…?

    Sweet jesus, it’s like someone said one time… I love the DC character, but I fucked HATE DC Comics.

  • Van

    Actually, there’s a huge overlap. I camped out to see the New Moon panel at San Diego Comic Con, and most of the women in the line read comics too. And I not only read comics – I write about them. The first time I found another woman who was reading Twilight books at the same time as me, it was a woman who would later become a DC editor (although she’s not one now).

  • Anonymous

    Christopher, I understand your opinion.

    It’s obvious, though, that you haven’t read the books.

    Also, go have a baby. And then consider if that’s ‘transformation’ enough.

  • HeatherG

    Oh for crying out loud!!!

    I get it. We get frustrated when things do not go our
    way but this is being blown way out of proportion. News flash people:

    Not all women comic book readers are against the Clark and Diana pairing.
    Not all women comic book readers support the Clark and Lois pairing.
    Just because a fan does not support the Clark and Lois pairing does not mean that they have a personal dislike of Lois.
    Just because DC is pushing for the Clark and Diana pairing does not mean that they’re a bunch of middle aged men living out their fantasies.

    I’m sorry but some of you need to do an inhale/exhale breathing exercise because you’re out of control.

    P.S. I’m a female fan and support the Clark and Diana pairing. And guess what? There are others like me.

  • Van

    I think all it will tell them is that Soule/Daniel either succeeded or failed at making the story work. And since we haven’t read the story, we have no idea if it works or not. (Knowing Soule, it probably will.)

  • Van

    That was just a joke from one person on a panel. Haven’t you ever been to a comic convention?

  • Van

    NO, the “better love story than Twilight” jokes are NOT because of people having read the books and fairly judged them on merit.

    The jokes exist because of sexism aimed specifically at teen girls.

    The more obviously “girls” like something, the more it is derided. Chick flicks and horror movies? Not as “quality” as action films like The Avengers. Twilight books? Not as “well written” as, say, Frank Miller books (despite the latter often being much more melodramatic). Boy Band singers? Not as musically talented as rock/metal singers. Why? Because girls like the the former & boys like the latter.

    Art is a matter of taste, and if you don’t like Stephenie Meyer’s writing, well that’s fine. I’ve never been able to finish a Stephen King book (Lord, I’ve tried, but it’s just not my taste – I much prefer his son’s work). But I don’t say Stephen King can’t write or the novels aren’t “well-written.” And I won’t make fun of you and react negatively every time someone says Stephen King. Unfortunately, society doesn’t give Twilight – and other “girl-preferred” entertainment – the same respect.

    You’d think if anyone understood this, it would be comic fans. How long have we comic fans been lambasted by the mainstream? Comics are a matter of taste. Not everyone can appreciate them. But too often, people who make fun of them base their opinion upon the “mainstream idea” of what a comic book – and a comic fan – is. The same is true of Twilight. Are we really so blind to the kinship these two fandoms share?

  • Van

    Comics reflect society, and right now, pop culture and entertainment is very much based on the male power fantasy and the sexualization of women. Did you watch the VMAs? Three female performers, and all three of them were dancing around in their bras (and two in panties). None of the male performers showed their underwear – they wore power suits/power urban clothing. The Oscars at least had clothed women, but the jokes and skits and dances revealed the same type of sexism. The treatment of women in comics is no different than any other form of entertainment in our society today. And unfortunately, the quieter we are about the sexism prevalent in the VMAs and other more mainstream entertainment, the more it’s going to be reflected in comic books as publishers try to reach that same audience.

  • hellacre13

    Oh, a little late to the discussion. But I am one of several fans who share a sm/ww tumblr blog and we’ve loved and supported this pairing for years and are thrilled DC are going with it. The series starting in October have us all (females and males) pretty excited. For those interested in sm/ww and want to get another perspective come check us out.

    It’s a little unfortunate imo people taking Tony’s words out of context. My understanding is he’s drawing a reference to a genre that does attract females and there is there something wrong with romance? Is there something inherently wrong with females who read Twilight? The guy never said they going to plot sm/ww like Twilight unless I can’t read and understand context. I don’t get the outrage here. Did these fans rage at the producers of Lois and Clark the tv series or Smallville who decided to tailor Superman for a younger female demographic or even the long awaited CW Amazon which is premised to try to draw a female audience? . There seems to be a convenient bias against romance when it isn’t the romance we want. I don’t mind people voice their concerns but I do find it unfair when fans try to smear book not yet out, and the the creators as women haters. If you want to know about the book Newsarama has a really good article by Vaneta Rogers and they did interviews with the creative team and it’s clear it’s an epic action orientated book with the two leads in a relationship…like you know that comic called Saga? Oh and for the record I am a female and am not a 40 year old white male but I have been called by some ladies a male troll because I did not agree with them on disqus and our shared blog has been accused of all misogyny and that we hate on Lois everyday. Shrugs. People can come see for themselves if we do. I guess it’s okay to have opinions about Bella and slam Twilight fans and you’re not misogynistic.

    Yeah as as a young teenager I sneeked my sisters and mother’s romance novels and enjoyed the hell out of them and I still am able to read a wide range of books of all genres. So coming and telling someone they choosing the wrong example in Bella at whatever stage in their life…that is really condescending to presume we know which woman or which story is the best representation of femininity. We can have a favorites yes.

  • Anonymous

    I wanted to respond to one point: about Daniels’ words being taken out of context. Daniels spoke about the series also at Boston Comic Con and used very similar terms as at the Fan Expo. So much so that my texts from my eldest daughter (20) during the panel said “ewwww….!”

    So, no, I think what came across is what Daniels meant.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks, Christopher.

    I think, often, people have trouble with books due to a disagreement (or just can’t relate to) themes in the work, or its thematic structure.

    Twilight is all about apotheosis. And if a person’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) disagree with that direction, then the book will never work for them.

  • Anonymous

    Superman and Wonder Woman in a romantic relationship is extremely problematic for a long, laundry list of reasons. This is only partly a writing issue. Soule’s writing really has very little to do with what has been from the start a problematic gimmick that plays on some of the worst gender problems in the DCU. Period.
    This isn’t about Soule. It’s not even about his writing. It’s that people don’t WANT this romantic relationship. For good reason. It’s

  • Anonymous

    I think if you pay attention to the FEMALE DOMINANT places in fandoms and look closely at who is talking and responding to this relationship it’s fairly clear that, generally, as a demographic, the FEMALE fandom has not been interested in Superman/Wonder Woman.
    Are there exceptions to that? OF COURSE. There are always exceptions. But spending some time in female dominated places and listening to the things WOMEN Are saying at cons and in interviews and on panels make it pretty clear that there are a lot of women very opposed to this.

  • Anonymous

    You’re entitled to support what you want. Just as other women have every right to continue to break down why they believe what you enjoy is problematic.
    Women are capable of liking problematic things. There were a few women who defended Starfire’s treatment. There were women who had no problem with Identity Crisis or Catwoman #1. Women can and do contribute to sexism.
    No one is out of control here nor needs to be told, by you, to calm down. You are free to like what you like just as others are free to fight against it if they feel it’s problematic.

  • Anonymous

    The above poster once made a youtube video claiming that Wonder Woman was a better match for Superman bc she had larger breasts. I have links to all of her problematic behavior.

  • Anonymous


  • HeatherG

    So people are free to like what they like but at the same time my judgement deserves to be called into question because I’m not critical of the way DC comics has treated Lois?

    In my opinion, this “Lois is being mistreated” common phrase among some fans is only being used because the pre-52 romance was not carried with the reboot.

    I, as a woman, obviously do not see things the way you do. Should I question your judgement because we don’t share the same opinion? I don’t think so.

  • Vovo

    Guess what? With technology there’s always a way to bypass that sort of thing. That’s the reason why I believe in sales more than how many complaints a new idea gets on the internet.

  • Anonymous

    I think you are missing the point.

    First of all, there were fantastic relationship stories written in the 70′s about Lois and Superman where they were married, the secret was out and they were a team. There were also fantastic stories written in the Bronze age where Lois was focusing on her career and was very vocal about her needs and her focus on her job. People who claim that the 90′s were the first time the relationship was done right have not done their homework. The groundwork had been laid for decades for a healthy marriage and had been in the making for decades. And that’s the point.

    This is a 75 year old love story which means that it reflects the progress of women in our culture. Lois was a pioneer in the 1930′s bc she had a job. It doesn’t appear like a huge feminist accomplishment to us NOW but back then…it was HUGE. Huge.

    The Silver Age as a pure reflection of the post World War 2 era in which women were shoved back in their tradtional roles after the men came home from war. Lois emerging from the sexism of the Silver Age into the feminism she was able to experience later is a triumph.

    As women we don’t have the luxury of running from our past. The relationship itself survived decades of sexism and emerged an equal partnership. It was founded no the idea that women could be powerful in a job. It’s also well known that Siegel wanted Lois to be in on the secret as early as 1940 and was shot down.

    We can’t dismiss the last 30 years of comics as not being significant bc there was sexism before. OF COURSE THERE WAS. It doesn’t change the power that was there nor the triumph of a 75 year old love story surviving all of those cultural changes and getting to the place of honor and equality that it was. That’s important.

  • Anonymous

    First of all, the “Lois has been mistreated” isn’t a phrase among just fans. It’s a concern of several creators—several powerful creators who have actually walked off books. It’s been a concern of some of the most prominent feminist writers in the genre known specifically for their concerns and advocacy for women including Greg Rucka and Simone and several other powerful voices.

    Most importantly, it’s been a concern of the SIEGEL FAMILY. The daughter of the person who actually created Superman.

    Second, if you actually paid attention to the points being made by these powerful people you’d know full well that the complaints about her treatment are only partially related to the romance and disslution of the marriage and much more closely associated with her complete and utter sidelining in a narrative in which she has played a vital role for 75 years.

    Even the historian Brad Ricca who has devoted a significant portion of his life to researching the Siegel family and the creation of Superman has expressed his disgust and concern.

    It makes sense that you would ignore this concern and valid conversation because I’m sure it’s much more pleasurable for fans like yourself if she’s “out of the way” so you can enjoy what you like. But that doesn’t make what DC has done to her right or unworthy of the criticism it has received.

    Women can and have supported and ignored problematic things at DC Comics before. If you choose to brush this off bc it’s not convienant for you and your ship, that’s your right. But yes, it calls your judgement and your fandom into question.

  • Anonymous

    And had they compared it to “moonlighting’ or a ‘love in the workplace’ it would have just been a further rip-off of Lois and Clark.

    The premise of the 90′s TV show for Lois and Clark was “moonlighting plus superpowers…”