Female Lawmakers Indefinitely Banned From Michigan House of Representatives for Saying, Apparently, “No Means No”

Michigander here. Good on the ladies for speaking up! Barb Byrum supposedly was also censured because she yelled the word “vasectomy” in her attempts to add rider to this that would provide the same restrictions on men getting vasectomies.

I see this as the Republican-led House saying, “Now, now, little lady. Don’t get yourself all upset here. Don’t you have some brownies to make? It’s bad enough we have to let you vote on things – we’re not going to go as far as letting you actually speak your piece.” 

Let me get this straight. The women who were elected to speak on behalf of those they represent were silenced because they spoke out. 
I am so sick of this crap. It makes me furious. If I didn’t need to keep my job I would march my happy butt to these people’s doors with a giant poster depicting a vagina.
Small government, my ass.

Has the world gone crazy? How is this kind of backwoods, prehistoric attitude about women’s reproductive rights coming back into the mainstream? Just bizarre. It’s like we’re going backwards.

The fact that I share a gender, race, and national associations with these neanderthals makes me angry as hell.

I wish we (read: white guys) sucked less. 

So…the people who want to control people with uteri’s bodies are shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!!-to be compared with rapists? I think they were spot-on.

Ugh, Michigan has become such a hole in the past few years… I wish they’d just leave the state alone instead of ruining it with this kind of crap. I’m never surprised every time I hear that state Republicans have said/done something completely sexist or homophobic. It used to be that Holland and West Michigan was where all the religious crazies were, but now…

Keep in mind that this is a state that appears hellbent on making the corporate owned future of Robocop a reality…

It’s like a fishtank full of political insanity.

So they’re trying to spin it that it had nothing to do with the word vagina.  If that’s the case (and I call bullshit, but for argument’s sake) then what Rep. Mike Callton found so offensive that he wouldn’t say it in mixed company is “no means no.”  What does it say about Rep. Callton that he finds the notion that “no means no” to be so offensive that he wouldn’t say it in mixed company?  Is he one of those “no really means yes” guys?

Outrageous. That’s all. Simply outrageous. What the hell is wrong with these people? Good for Brown and Byrum, I hope misogyny like this doesn’t deter them from continuing to stand up for what is just and rational.

Why are the GOP’s with penises intimated by vaginas?

That sure is some delicious-looking humble pie you’re enjoying, but I’m not taking responsibility for anything these assholes do. Don’t any of them have mothers? Wives? Sisters? Girlfriends? Aunts? Nieces? (Other female relation I have -oh! – grandmothers? Why aren’t they currently nursing wounds from having their mothers’ shoes up their asses?

 Unfortunately, it’s not the first time recently where women elected were silenced. In a House hearing, the only elected representative for the District of Columbia, Eleanor Norton, was barred from speaking in a hearing on whether or not DC should ban abortions after 20 weeks. Although those running the hearing were kind enough to compromise and offer her a seat on the podium….provided that she still kept quiet and wouldn’t ask or answer any questions.

Well said.  And unfortunate that it’s both sickeningly true and ridiculously outdated.  However, I’m a Californian (who lived a short time in Michigan 20 years ago, so I am completely out of touch), and as denizens of all other states know, we are a bunch of weirdoes. It’s nice to see a Michigander respond the way you did.  I sincerely hope their constituents get all riled up on their behalf.

Also, you made me want to make brownies.  Dammnit.

Say it.

And may I add, it is my right as an AMERICAN, regardless of gender, to VOTE and MAKE BROWNIES (see “…pursuit of happiness” thing).  I fully intend to do both, and encourage everyone (who likes brownies) to do the same (or something similar), because this is depressing.

I propose a new rule: if you can’t say or hear the word “vagina,” you’re too immature to be legislating women’s health.

Also, isn’t this the body that has repealed the motorcycle helmet laws because they violate personal liberty?

Wait, so they want to regulate women’s vaginas but they can’t bear to hear the word?

I refuse to believe that the real reason behind the ban wasn’t the use of the word ‘vagina’ because – let’s face it – if “no means no” is what the state Senator can’t bear to say in mixed company, Michigan has bigger problems than we thought. Although, seriously, if a woman has never heard the word ‘vagina’ before she also has some serious issues that need to be addressed.

What the HELL, America?!

Yep.  Totally some woman’s fault for failing to control a man’s actions.

I realize that my comment could have been taken one way or the other and you assumed, naturally, that I was insinuating women were to blame for the actions of those men involved (which is just insanely bonkers). I do that often…I, myself, generally read often vague statements positively, but it’s amazing how many people go the other way.

Is anyone else getting some bizarre feedback from Disqus lately?

In case you need further explanation, I was only curious what the personal fallout is for these guys, making dickish proclamations in public, when they return home.

as much as its pretty whacked to not let representatives represent, i have grown pretty weary about women roaring about their rights and the law of their vaginas.  I think if women want the sole right over whether a pregnancy is carried or terminated, perhaps they ought to have sole responsibility.  As a male, if i don’t want a child and my sex partner does, i have now just earned a life time responsibility as well as 18 years of financial obligation that i can be jailed for neglecting.  absolutely no rights in the matter.  If i desperately want to have the baby and my sex partner does not, then i get to experience the emotional trauma of losing the life that was conceived.  again, i have no rights in this matter. I have no say in my destiny as though I wasn’t actually a person.

And I am truly weary at the unblinking wall of hate and accusations of all kinds that are hurled my way anytime I bring this up simply as something to consider.  it doesn’t feel like equality and it doesn’t seem just.  it has eroded my sensibilities where feminism is concerned

I see that those would be issues but those are not issues that can be addressed with laws but instead are to be taken up with the person you are in a relationship with. 

 hoping someone will listen to you is not the same as rights.  how would you feel if for any number of things women have fought for to have protected in law were just brushed aside by saying, “take it up with a man”

and why can’t they be addressed by law?  what if you needed both parents consent for an abortion?  what if a man wasn’t liable for a child he “voted” against?  these are just two ideas off the top of my head.  anything can be addressed by a law, the question is is the law fair and just.  If it was completely reversed, you would want some new laws.  I get that life germinates in only one parents body, but the argument that is the sole determination for decisions when those decisions affect two people (or three depending on the choice) forever.  life changing decisions.

all i am hearing is women’s rights are important and should be addressed in law, while men’s rights, insomuch as you could even call them that should be petitioned on a case by case basis directly to the woman who holds all the power and has her own conflict of interest.  more succintly, you seem to be saying ‘i will humour the notion that that might be an issue, but it doesn’t matter and isn’t worth addressing.  which is about the most polite and generous any woman has ever been at the mention of men’s/father’s rights.  so, the whole thing is moot anyway.

25 years ago, i was sitting in a drop in centre for homeless kids.  there were two big posters on the wall one was “Women have the right to” and a long list of items which made women sound really imperilled and severely lacking in agency.  the other poster said “Men have the responsibility to” followed by a long list of things that suggested to me that men were brutes, villains, cads and cowards.  At that age, 15, i took all that in uncritically, and it shaped my feminism for years–a sense of guilt and self loathing (for things i had never done) and no sense of deserving rights, but instead feeling like no measure was enough to protect this strange proto-damsel described in her poster.

I think our entire civilization kind of went through a generation of that.  It’s why you arrest the man during at a domestic dispute even if he is on the floor and the woman is whacking him with a bat(that’s the law, no wiggle room).  It’s why divorce typically removes men from their children and regardless of legal agreements leaves visitation at the discretion of mom.

my apologires since this has strayed off topic–a parliament that is rejecting its own rules and laws, in effect destroying democracy unchallenged.

‘….insinuating women were to blame for the actions of those men involved (which is just insanely bonkers)’.

Yes, it is bonkers. It also happens all the time. Can you blame it if we (women) learn to take things as accusations and insinuations when it’s so very, very common?

I’m not calling you out or laying any blame or anything, just giving a likely reason as to why the assumption was made.

We-ell, I was watching Buffy today, one of the seventh season episodes right when Buffy becomes a guidance counselor, and she explains to this bullied student that bullies are just taking out their insecurities on the world. The student replies (paraphrasing), “I’m really tired of everyone being so insecure.”

I realize that the reason websites like The Mary Sue even exist is because of rightfully insinuated accusations, pronouncements, a general malaise of the male population in regards to the female population…I get that. But in the words of a great yellow-skinned guru of wisdom and philosophy (Homer Simpson), “Just because I don’t care doesn’t mean I don’t understand.”

I prefer websites like this one where a minority population on other sites is able to expand, flesh out, and express itself coherently without a barrage of right-offs and dismissals due to, in this particular case, the commenter’s sex. I tend to identify more with women, most of the people in my life are women, and women in industry, entertainment, politics, studies, and issues are generally far more interesting and thought-provoking than men imo. And while I realize that, as pseud0 put it, I fit into a very well-known group of so-called privileged individuals, my life experience and my personal philosophies fall somewhat outside the category. As a result, while I understand that I can be mistaken for the majority leader, the more it happens…

To put it another way, I’m an open-minded, fairly optimistic, generally positive guy…but I’ve also been nitpicked and assumed to DEATH in the last few days, which has me a bit testy.

…though, this and other comments I’ve made have lead me to believe that I could probably be less vague about my intentions, especially if I’m willing to argue over them later.

I’m sorry for the abundance of commas (and length of this diatribe)…it is very late here.

…I suppose a shorter way of wording that would have been: I take personal responsibility for the things that I say and do, not for what is said and done by everyone that looks like me, lives where I live, etc. I try my best to judge the same way, based on the individual. I expect the same fair treatment. This isn’t absolute, of course…nothing ever should be.

I am embarrassed to be a Michigan resident right now (as my “representative” voted for the bill).  This is the kind of backward thinking I feared when we elected Gov. Snyder (R), who said he was ALL about business and NOT about legislating personal matters. As usual, a politician lied to get what he wanted.  He will back this if it goes through.

All I can do now is send emails and letters and call my representatives to voice my opposition to this horrific piece of legislation and hope that the Senate lawmakers have more common sense.

Oh, and also leave the damn state because I couldn’t get work here, but I did find a great job in another state that is, mercifully, liberal-leaning.  So happy.  Still, I won’t give up on women’s rights issues, despite the twisting thinking of folks like idleprimate, who show lack of understanding of both laws and human relationships in one swoop–kinda like Michigan House Republicans.

“I prefer websites like this one where a minority population on other sites is able to expand, flesh out, and ….”
For your own sake, I want to point out that you are telling a marginalized group who built their own safe space how they should conduct that space to best accommodate to you – someone not a part of that marginalized group.

Just a heads up when no one here gives a damn.

You have a point.  If you were freed of that responsibility and fathered a child, then failed to support the mother, you could be legally forced to be neutered.  That would level the playing field with this law I recon.

 awesome, I can see that this is a well thought out and considered response in the face of something that is complex.  Thanks for taking seriously what is a real issue.  Perhaps I can return the favour if there is ever a day comes when men have the rights and choices and women have the responsibilities decided for them.

my point is I have only fathered a child if the woman wants the child.  If I want a child and the woman doesn’t, then I haven’t fathered a child.  the full force of the law supports this because of 39 weeks in a woman’s life.  my whole life versus 39 weeks in her life.

It must be great to be able to so glibly and rudely dismiss the concerns of half the species, since what the other half wants is all that matters.  Imagine if i suggested that women who couldn’t make responsible choices should be fixed?  or perhaps that wouldn’t be as amusing to you?  But the hostility is sadly typical as a response to women being questioned in anyway.

“Perhaps I can return the favour if there is ever a day comes when men have the rights and choices and women have the responsibilities decided for them.”
Isn’t that exactly whats happening in this article?  Men are making decisions in order to force women to have children they don’t want.

“my whole life versus 39 weeks in her life.”
Yes, because thats all a baby is.  As soon as it’s popped out the woman runs for the hills and her body returns to the same state it was in before pregnancy.  In no circumstances does the woman’s body get ripped apart while giving birth, in a way that when it heals it’s no longer quite the same, and she doesn’t breastfeed the child or take care of it for the rest of her life.  And of course, as a man, your obligation goes so much further than just contributing a little money in order to keep the child fed and a roof over their head …

What a strange world you live in *sigh*

 i don’t understand your point.  of course there is a lifetime impact for both parents.  what I was saying, is that the philosophy that feminists have always campaigned on to make the decisions about whether or not to bring a life in to the world have always been based on “my body my decision” as though that decision wasn’t also changing someone else’s life.  My point is on this basis women decide not only whether they would like or not like to become a parent, but they decide for men as well.  Men have absolutely no say in the matter.  I never understand why the problems in this system are so difficult to comprehend.  Flip it around and think about it.

I don’t live in a strange world where i am running for the hills.  A girlfriend and I did get pregnant, by accident, despite being careful.  i wanted to keep the baby, she didn’t, thinking it was an inconvenient time in life, and treated the abortion like it was no big deal and was quite insistent that it was none of my business.

I also have a daughter that I never see after a long expensive  battle in court where it was quite clear to me that the societal concept of father was quite meaningless in any sense other than child support.  There is no one protecting any hypothetical rights for me.

so don’t presume to tell me i live in a strange world,  I live in a cruel criminal world with the added salt that if i should make a peep saying i don’t think this is just, I get ridiculed, ad hominem attacks, dismissed as being both childish and oppressive, or threats like ‘men should be neutered’.

I’m not an idiot. I realize expectation and reality do differ. I was replying (at too great a length) to someone and wanted to make sure I was understood…

And by the way, there’s a certain truth pertaining to trolls that carries through to all other walks of life. The less attention you give to something, the more obvious that you don’t give a damn.

Actually, know what? I don’t care. I’m tired of talking about me. I certainly don’t come here to talk about me and although I get annoyed by how much baggage people bring to my comments and how often I have to explain myself, I’d rather just keep doing that than talk about me for one moment longer.

Aside from their pizza being utterly disgusting, I stopped ordering from Domino’s because of their unconscionable “No Is The New Yes” campaign:

http://thesavvycopywriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Dominos-Artisan-Pizza-Box-300×224.jpg

“Men have absolutely no say in the matter.”

I’m pretty sure they made the decision to put their semen into a woman they trusted.

What should she have said: ‘ho-ho, vaj-jay, naughty palace, tuna tunnel, privates,’ Really can we have a adult discourse on sex and reproductive rights ever?

“and why can’t they be addressed by law?”
Because it gives men complete control over women’s bodies. A father’s desire and a mother’s desire don’t outweigh each other in an equal world, however a person has a right to their own body. Since the mother carries the child in her own body, she has a right to how her body will be used. Otherwise, women are reduced to objects.

Oh, come on, that’s ridiculous. Yes, woman do have a right to their body. And although I’m against abortions, I do recognize an unwanted pregnancy is very, very hard on woman.
But that is my biggest problem with feminism; when is convenient, they want equal rights. If a woman wants to keep the kid and the man doesn’t, she can sue for support. If is the opposite, well, fuck the man, right? Just kill the kid and move on, he didn’t have anything to do with it anyway.
If feminism was truly about equality, both parents would have a say in the matter. Or women wouldn’t be able to sue for child support.

 so, your response to what i have said is to reiterate the argument (my body) that i listed as a flimsy reasoning to cut men out of having any reproductive rights whatsoever???

like I said in my first post, I’m cool with that kind of tyranny as long as women then also assume full responsibility.

your other comment about me again forfeiting all my rights for the rest of my life(because i will be legally and financially beholden to the child, who is owned and regulated by the mother) because I had sex (as though the women didn’t also make that choice) is a again the dismissive reductive argument that basically says, “i don’t accept men as equals who require respect and equal treatment, they get what they get, and i say what they get”.  And it dismissed as irrelevant  whether they used protection, whether the woman lied about either wanting children or not wanting them.  It leaves women free to make life altering decisions for other people on a whim.   Imagine if whether you did or did not have a child was a decision completely out of your control.  and before you bring up “that’s how it always was in history” first, apparently if that was so, it was an injustice feminists have been fighting, so why it is ok if you swap genders, i don’t know; second being that, as you say, it is in your body, unless someone ties you to a bed and feeds you through IV, I’d say whatever cultural power is attached to men, you’d still be able to exercise some of your own will.  I’ve been talking about a modern, legally considered world that has decided I don’t have any reproductive rights.  I can’t have a baby we conceive unless she wants it and wants to share it with me; and if I don’t want a baby and she does I will have to pay for it for an entire generation, and feel the responsibility for it for the rest of my life.  should I protest this, i will be labelled deadbeat, misogynistic, etc.  should i fail in payment, wilfully or unwilfully I will go to jail.

I really hope your sensibilities, and frothy self righteousness never come back to haunt you.

I’m stepping out of this discussion now, because thus far it has been utterly predictable.  Fail to even acknowledge what I am saying.  Deny.. Ad hominem attacks. flippant responses as though reproductive rights only have gravity in respect to women,  replies that confirm my theses that men have no rights and women feel that is appropriate.  and of course good old fashioned anger at having been questioned or defied.  Thanks all of you for living down to expectation, always nice to reconfirm that nothing has changed out there.

you may find you get a world that gives you all that power and authority but where there are no children because men will decide not to be that stupid, will forgo the company altogether of our spiteful hateful masters.

 i used to be a feminist, but it seems very clear to me in many different arenas that equality was never part of the equation, instead, it was the same goal individuals and groups always have: power.

Clearly a society where women die in back alleys and abandoned babies are found in trash cans is a better and more moral place than one where unwanted pregnancies are terminated as early as possible in a professional and sanitary environment. Also let’s get started on completely dismantling sex ed, because thinking about kids have sex is icky.

 ”Isn’t that exactly whats happening in this article?  Men are making
decisions in order to force women to have children they don’t want”

(i missed this part of your comment before)

First, my understanding is it is about how far into a pregnancy an abortion is permitted.  I live in Canada and we have laws like that and i am not an expert on how much of that is medical and how much political.

Second, before you can make blanket statements about “men forcing” (and I dis get the abhorrent silencing of the members who were vocally opposed) I have to assume that in religiously conservative America, women had as much to do with voting in “pro-life” delegates.

Third, I am not talking about dickering over the technicalities of abortion.  I am talking about individual father’s rights for children they fertilized.  And individual men’s rights over how much responsibility they assume when a woman decides to keep an accidental pregnancy that the man is opposed to.  not some giant generic men versus women political war more fit for propaganda than any critical look at rights and responsibilities of the individual of either gender.

The fact of the matter remains, women hold sole reproductive rights in our society which include control over men’s lives.  I know women felt something was wrong when they felt men had control over them;  I fail to see why it is ok the other way around, other than “power over” comes with privilege, security and comfort and thus trumps any concerns about equity, justice or fairness.

I’m ashamed for my home state.

Also, is it just me or does “hashtag vagina” sound really uncomfortable?

Because they don’t like the idea of giving consideration to control something that isn’t a rich, white, male human being or a big business. :)

 by what logic are women’s rights important, but men’s rights twisted?  the idea not even worth entertaining for a moment.  I live in a society where the very notion of men’s rights is absurd.  I believe all of my comments have been rational, thought out, indicating a very basic set of ideas and have also tried to describe the sort of impact that has on a man.  but no need to consider any of it, i can simply be dismissed as twisted, hell why not just throw the M word in there too for good measure.

The fact that men who are not ready to be fathers are often forced into financially supporting children is another very important issue, but it has nothing to do with this particular issue. In fact, this law would actually make it more likely for men to be forced into child support, since the mother is essentially incapable of terminating a pregnancy, even if the mother and father both agree they want to abort.

The fact that men are unfairly legally obligated to support unwanted children is not in any way a sensible argument for legally obligating women to bear unwanted children.

 I may have misunderstood the article, but I thought the issue was aboutsome of the participants being sidelined–which is reprehensible, heinous, and speaking from a Canadian point of view, I don’t even understand how it was allowed.

I thought that the legislation was about making a 20 week cut off for abortions.  I live in Canada, and as far as I know, the usual restriction ( a hospital guideline, not law) is 21 weeks, though more advanced medical diagnostics have pushed that boundary to 4 weeks sometimes for medical reasons.  Generally I would have thought later abortions would be due to something medical, as there has been ample time to think about having a baby or not.  I don’t really feel qualified philosophically, medically, or human rights-wise to have a strong opinion on how close to term there should or should not be limits(which isn’t to say I haven’t looked at the issue in classes at uni, or thought about it–i’m thankful I am not in the position to have to make hospital or legal decisions.  If forced to decide, I wouldn’t feel very comfortable with late term abortions other than for medical reasons.  It does seem a bit sticky.  I have a friend who, due to complications just had a caesearean at 20 weeks, and the 2lb baby is viable.  I can see how people would be divided.

I don’t think laws forcing women to have unwanted children are any more just than laws forcing men.  I also realise the biological facts of reproduction make drafting fair laws difficult–again the big picture is potentially a life, not simply the nine months of pregnancy.  I guess my biggest complaint isn’t that there is no solution, or that it would be a difficult solution requiring a great amount of expert debate and voting (like any other important legislation), but that it is a non-issue.  That we live in a climate where it is tabboo even to talk about and the notion that what a woman want is sacred and what a man wants is not even marginal, but utterly inconsequential is distressing to me.  It is a mindset that carries through in consistent fashion in all of Canada’s family law.  I feel as angry and belittled and mistreated as any woman in the 40′s or 50′s might have felt–being ignored, brushed aside, the subject of derision and constrained by law.

I don’t have an answer.  I do wish it was a question.  It isn’t because it would be political suicide here.

Thanks for commenting reasonably.  I’ve been letting myself get wound up on this thread–which was just as predictable as some of the responses.  you’d think I would learn to butt out.

the law banning abortion passed 20 weeks got tabled. the one that passed is one that puts all kinds of restrictions on abortion providers, does not allow telephoned prescriptions of the morning after pill (because idiots don’t realize it’s doesn’t induce abortion – if you’re already pregnant, you will stay pregnant – and my lovely child seems to have nothing wrong with her at now 6, tyvm), requires a physician to be present, requires a physician play psychiatrist and screen for coercion… and a whole host of other bullshit things they’re claiming to make things more safe.

also – it wasn’t indefinitely it was one day, only that one day was the last day of the session, when they were doing the voting.

“Or women wouldn’t be able to sue for child support.”
Because that child totally deserves to not be fed or clothed because you’re upset with the mother.

Also lol on your comment about feminism. Please educate yourself plzkthx.

Stupis males…If I had the money, I’d head up to Michigan and shout “Vagina” from the gallery.

In Canada(except Quebec,the catholic province), the “morning after pill” is available over the counter, without a prescription.  you just buy it the way you would an aspirin.  or you can go to a medical clinic, in which case the cost of it will be covered by our public health insurance.

I’m not always quick to leap to the idea of nefarious intentions, but the proposed law does seem as though the intention is simply to make things harder.

The morning after pill is (i guess) used mostly for drunken mistakes, one night stands and assaults and it is important to be able to get it quick.

For abortions, I do wish we had a waiting period, or required consultation–time to think things through during a panicky crisis.  In Canada setting up an abortion is about as complicated as ordering a pizza despite it is being big decision that a person will carry for the rest of their lives.  many people feel profound regret/remorse/depression at a later time.

See, this is where it becomes more of a gender war than an actual concern for a child’s life.  At the end of the day, it’s not about what either parent wants, it’s about whether or not this child can be raised in a loving environment. You can’t USE a child just to sue for a man’s money, nor can you USE a child to just put a woman through the pain of pregnancy.  Stop treating pregnancy as a weapon against the other gender!

Thank goodness someone wants to start vagina monologues. Although the lawmakers are at best going about it the wrong way. In other words, why do you want to look and probe? I Just want someone to biopsy my vagina and have now been turned down, refused a diagnoses by three different doctors. It is little wonder the number of women who die from Ovarian and Uterus Cancer are staggering. If we cannot get timely testing how in the world will we EVER expect to get treatment? It is bad enough studies on the female reproductive organs only began less than twenty years ago…but why are we being REFUSED the very tests which, if done early enough could save our very lives? Now I have growths not only on my ovaries but on my Kidney’s and still the doctors refuse to biopsy to find out if they are malignant or beguine.
If someone can kindly give me the name and number of Doctor who performs these tests I would be ever so grateful!

I guess these narrow minded so called Republican lawmakers have never heard of the Vagina Monologues
Play? Republican no longer work for the citizens of this State they work for A..L.E..C. and the Koch’s.
So it’s time we the people stand you to them and let know they are not doing their job for citizens of this state. Republicans have ILLEGALLY passed over 96% (546) of their bills under “immediate effect.” The media has let us down not reporting on what’s going on in Lansing. People it’s time we band together and let them know we want let them get away with what they are doing.

At some point we will have to do something about the Cult of Conservatism that does not involve ballots. Just saying, seeing as how they abuse that process and seem addicted to the rhetoric of violence and the politics of repressive Fascist ideologies.

 thats known as SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP, a policy and governance style that the Cult wants to impose on any opposition or dissent.

 just part of the Cult GOP plan to destroy America from within.

 just…wow.  all this and it’s not even on topic. 

but you know, the mature thing is to just deal with it between yourself and the one who you’re with/ in the end the law has nothing (and should never have anything) on the personal decisions of an individual.  Though I have to wonder what you are going to do to stop a woman from getting an abortion…lock her up? I’m pretty sure you’d be in more trouble than if you called a cluster of cells a cluster of cells and tried again in the future, with her or somebody who wants a child and PLANS FOR IT. 

of course you have emotions too- duh, males can feel just like females- there still has to be an AGREEMENT between a man and a woman to have a child, you can’t say ‘oh I have male rights and demand you keep this fetus alive and to term’ if she’s not willing.  If you really want a child, find a woman who wants one too, plan for it, or find someone to carry the child for the two of you.

(if I’ve left out any other possible solutions for this person, sorry but it’s late and I’ve had enough just reading through all this topic derailing for one night.)

 nice derailment of a topic.  just so you know, there are ways to have a child besides enforcing male rights on whoever you’re with who DOESN’T WANT ONE.  There’s finding a surrogate mother to carry the embryo for the two of you, finding a relationship who wants a child, planning for one, etc etc etc.  You have to have a consensual agreement on this kind of thing, and it’s not the time (or topic) to whine about how men have emotions too and all this*. 

*which btw is very true and I wish all people would finally realize- all people all genders having feelings as being valid and meaningful that is.  It however doesn’t excuse idiocy.  I’m sure that if you had to carry a child in your body you would want control of the process.  Actually, I’m more than sure… and if you aren’t well you’ll never know so don’t even worry about it. 

 you write as though these things were simple and had simple solutions.  but people have accidents all the time; and people get careless all the time.

i think it may be difficult to, even just for thought experiment sake, step out of the female perspective. you say “deal with it between yourself and the one who you’re with/ in the end
the law has nothing (and should never have anything) on the personal
decisions of an individual”.  but this much more a reality for women than men.  The law says I have no say, no legally protected rights concerning virtually anything to do with reproduction or custody, for that matter.

I said it before, but this is a real issue whether or not there is a feasible solution.  I just don’t like the glib assertion that its all personal and i should just make agreements with women.  This translates to your life will be dictated by what a woman decides.  my sense is given the opposite, women have been very much in support of having enforceable laws protect them.

If I don’t have a choice to not have a baby because it is not in my body, I find it deeply unjust that a woman can bring the state to commandeer my money and possibly throw me in jail. If she decides she isn’t interested in having me around as a parent, generally speaking (and stats support this) the law supports and protects her in this respect as well.  that is a  lot of law governing my personal decisions.  It is never my decision to say, “now isn’t the right time”, or, “no, i want to have this baby”

it’s hard sometimes for me to stay on board with feminism, if this is the face of equal rights.  they don’t feel very equal.

and i’m sorry if this is topic derailing for you.  It’s my experience that discussions often spread from their intial starts.  I am commenting on reproductive rights, it’s not my fault if in my culture that is an imaginary concept for men.  so was voting for women once.  but women kept talking about it despite being told not to worry, or that it was not their domain or simply to talk to their husbands–i.e. the most polite response i ever get on this topic.

 you said earlier:

“just so you know, there are ways to have a child besides enforcing male
rights on whoever you’re with who DOESN’T WANT ONE.  There’s finding a
surrogate mother to carry the embryo for the two of you, finding a
relationship who wants a child, planning for one, etc etc etc.  You have
to have a consensual agreement on this kind of thing, and it’s not the
time (or topic) to whine about how men have emotions too and all this*

i’m kind of thinking how it is legal to force a man to have a child, which is morally sound with you despite the fact that you recognize the opposite is not true.  it is the absolute basis of there being no requirement for consensus.

I’ll take you at your word that this isn’t the time or place for me to “whine” about this (how many times has this been used to dismiss a woman’s concerns?).  My concern is near as i can tell, there is no time or place where this is a welcome topic.  I bring reproductive rights and family law up in the most related contexts i can find.  I try and express myself rationally.  The most ironic thing is that the way I am treated sounds so much like the struggle early feminsts went through–ridicule, dismissal, anger, hostility, over reacting.  Throughout my entire 25 years of adult life I have been told and trained to think about feminist issues as they are framed for women, to put my self in their shoes, to try and understand my privelege, to seek out and support all efforts to empower women, but it is never the time or place to maybe check if we are building just laws and institutions and if we are creating equality.  I know these words are pointless, there is to great a one sided discourse that has formed out consciousness and it creates cognitive dissonance.

so, my apologies for bringing my two male cents to a discussion about reproductive rights, i should have remembered my place.