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What's with the name?

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Great Hera!

The Next Wonder Woman Animated Film Won’t Use Her Name In The Title, We’d Like To Know Why


I am incredibly…not surprised by this. 

ToonZone spoke with James Tucker, supervising producer of Warner Bros’ DC animated features recently while promoting their latest release, Justice League: War. The interviewer brought up Warner Bros. CEO Kevin Tsujihara’s recent comments about a live-action Wonder Woman project, wondering if those ideas had trickled down to animation. Tucker, who’s never met or directly dealt with the CEO, replied with:

They’d have to have a movie out and it’d have to do really, really, really, really REALLY well for them to go back to that. You just never know. It hasn’t happened yet. But I would be all for it. As far as what we’re doing, we’ll probably do a Wonder Woman-centered Justice League movie. We’ll use the Justice League as an umbrella to focus on characters who might not be able to support DVDs of their own. That’s not my judgment, that’s based on sales. But yeah, we’ll handle Wonder Woman in our own way, regardless of whether they’ll do a movie or not. I like her as a character and want to feature her as much as we can. But it will probably be in the context of a Justice League movie.

A few interesting things here. First of all, this isn’t the first time we’ve heard someone from Warner’s animation group speaking about female characters not being able to support their own titles. A few years ago, I interviewed casting/dialogue director, Andrea Romano, for their Superman/Batman: Apocalypse film. While it carried the names of both Superman and Batman in the title, the movie was actually the story of Supergirl, based on Jeph Loeb/Michael Turner’s 2005 comic book arc.

“So much more of these other pieces are male dominated and there’s women characters on the side. This is a very female focused piece,” Romano told me. “I think the main reason why they didn’t call this piece Supergirl is because for some reason the Wonder Woman home video that we made, which was very, very good and filled with male characters, didn’t sell well. And so marketing people said, female titled pieces don’t sell well. So this is a female piece, it’s got a very strong feminine character in it but they called it Superman/Batman: Apocalypse just to get people to come into the video stores and buy them.”

Both of them refer to sales as the reasoning for not giving female heroes their due. But there’s something important to remember here – 2009′s Wonder Woman actually sold very well. It sits at #4 for their best selling direct-to-video titles with a gross of $7,584,099. Here’s the top ten list according to The Numbers.

  1. Superman: Doomsday $9,455,120
  2. Superman/Batman: Public Enemies $8,479,891
  3. Batman: Gotham Knight $8,072,890
  4. Wonder Woman $7,584,099
  5. Batman: Under the Red Hood $7,162,929
  6. Superman/Batman: Apocalypse $6,330,826
  7. Green Lantern: First Flight $6,265,172
  8. Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths $5,426,113
  9. Justice League: The New Frontier $5,242,952
  10. All-Star Superman $4,673,815

If anything, these numbers mean another Wonder Woman animated feature should have already been made. What gives?

(via IGN)

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  • Anonymous

    SO glad you pulled these numbers into the story.

  • http://bytestemplar.com/ Fortyseven

    That Wonder Woman animated movie was absolutely fantastic.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    I remember when the Wonder Woman animated film came out. My girlfriend and I bought it on the spot, knowing nothing but what was on the back. We were not disappointed.

    What amazes me is that despite having an animated Wonder Woman movie out that was really excellent, they can’t seem to get their heads out of their asses enough to realize how easy a live action film would be.

    “Oh, hey, this animated movie did pretty good, but that doesn’t count.”

    *faceplam*

  • Jamie Jeans

    … >_<

    God DAMMIT, DC Comics… maybe the female characters would do as well as the male characters if you actually put some time, money, and effort into it instead of taking any sign that they didn't do as well as the male characters as 100% proof positive that they'll fail from the get go.

  • Anonymous

    Is it just me or do we fans of female superheroes get momentarily slapped every day a little bit more by the powers that be?

  • Pepper

    The second I saw: “That’s not my judgment, that’s based on sales.” I was ready to go dig up the numbers for Wonder Woman’s latest animated movie and rant about how danged stupid of an excuse that was considering the ACTUAL numbers. Buuuut, you guys beat me to it. Good on ya. :)

    It does make me wish that someone would’ve told this James Tucker guy since he obviously doesn’t know jack.

  • https://twitter.com/adamhowardcross Adam Cross

    ” focus on characters who might not be able to support DVDs of their own” because the last WW animated feature was a total failure right? oh wait…. it did better than the Green Lantern one in the same year. Morons.

  • https://twitter.com/adamhowardcross Adam Cross

    also, didn’t realise you had the top 10 there, I was just raging :P but yes, proves my point! D: arggggh

  • Anonymous

    DC doesn’t make the movies, it’s important to remember.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve been at the intersection of geek and marketing, and they do not seem to carpool well. Personally, I tend to think that, unless they have a geek on staff (which they rarely seem to do), and actually listen to that erudite individual when it comes to matters of geek culture, when it comes to selling to geeks, marketers should shut their holes.

  • Anonymous

    This probably goes back to WB’s attitude in general that nobody wants to watch anything that doesn’t have Batman or Superman in the title. They wanted Green Lantern to be their next huge Iron Man-like franchise (complete with an animated movie and TV show) and then the whole thing bombed. That might be why they’re adamant about not using other heroes unless it’s in the context of a Justice League movie. I think Geoff Johns had said something similar about Aquaman.

  • http://runt.org/ Adrian

    I don’t even know where to begin. It always feels like we (the fans, the consumers) are speaking a different language than the producers. The numbers are there, the sales warrant more WW films. There’s simply no evident logic being applied here. We need a TMS follow-up interview.

    Additionally, just as producers can’t wrap their heads around the untapped profitability of female-led stories, their marketing teams are even worse and have no idea how to market them. I personally saw ZERO marketing for the WW animated film, aside from specific DC and WW channels. Warner Bros marketing of Pacific Rim was terrible… none of the trailers focused on Mako (or Raleigh for that matter, but I digress), despite half the movie being about her. Marketers flub here and there but if there’s a female star involved, Marketing goes amateur hour. Terrible.

  • Supermorff

    Just to check: are the numbers you’ve posted the to-date numbers, or do they represent a fixed period of time after release? I assume the former (because there’s no other reason that Superman: Doomsday would be #1). But if that’s the case, then it’s possible that sales for Wonder Woman on its release were not good (relatively speaking) and that it took time to generate its sales. I know I didn’t see it immediately, and I know people that saw it on my recommendation years after it came out.

  • Rachel Banzhaf

    I didn’t even know that Superman/Batman: Apocalypse was actually about Supergirl. It sounded so dumb and violent I didn’t even pick it up to read the back of the box. So there you go for a sale lost because it wasn’t advertised as being about the superheroine!

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    But, we are basing it on sales! You know, we compared it to the live action Wonder Woman movie we made & we all know how THAT di…I’m sorry, that never happened? Oh well we’re basing it on her animated movie which we all know tank…oh I’m being told that isn’t true either.

    So, uh?

  • spartantown

    The disconnect is baffling. If you’re DC and you have one of the most famous and iconic superheroines ever in the history of comic books and pop culture you produce as many projects as you do for the Superman and Batman. Not out of fairness but because she’s equally deserving and relevant. Now more than ever.

  • http://www.thenerdybird.com/ Jill Pantozzi

    Yes, these are close to to-date, so WW might not have had explosive first week release sales but gained later.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    I think at this point, we can all see that the Wonder Woman film will only get made when the stars are right, and the Elder Gods have risen.

    Oh, wait, they already have and are running DC/WB?

    Makes sense when you look at that last Superman movie. :p

  • Jamie Jeans

    Yeah, I forget that it’s the WB that makes them… but I also know that DC Comics is often reluctant to throw any kind of weight behind any character that isn’t a straight, white ABLE BODIED male.

    *glares at them for retconning Oracle*

  • J Ritchey

    1) I would pay to see Jill be the one interviewing one of these idiots when they try to pull the “low sales” card.

    2) What makes this even more infuriating is the fact that not only did the
    Wonder Woman feature make some of the best numbers of the series, it specifically outsold ANYTHING in the series with the Justice League title.

  • Jeyl

    If this is the new 52 Wonder Woman, it’s already lost my interest. Not only will she inevitably be treated as “Superman’s current lover”, this will also be the one where her origin is changed so that her character can be depicted more as the daughter of Zeus rather than the daughter of the Amazons.

  • Thomas Hayes

    I just finished watching it again (coincidence I assure you). Go watch it!

  • Thomas Hayes

    To be fair to the man, he’s probably only reflecting what the marketers and execs are dictating to him. The actual creatives at WB Animation are often refreshingly frank about what they are and aren’t allowed to do (as you can see from Montgomery’s interview with Jill), and I sort of respect him for telling us exactly what’s going on. It’s very different from what we’re getting from WB on the live-action front, where they tell us absolutely nothing.

  • Supermorff

    Ok, working on that assumption, and bearing in mind that Wonder Woman was also the 4th DCU animated movie that was released (so it’s had longer than most to make its money), I’ve attempted to analyse the figures, normalising by time elapsed from release date to today’s date (2013/10/25). The top ten are now:

    1. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Part 1
    2. Superman: Unbound
    3. Justice League: Doom
    4. Batman: Under the Red Hood
    5. Superman/Batman: Public Enemies
    6. Superman/Batman: Apocalypse
    7. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Part 2
    8. All-Star Superman
    9. Wonder Woman
    10. Superman: Doomsday

  • Breanne Miller

    I wonder if they’re worried about sales because Catwoman was such an epic failure…?

  • J Ritchey

    I think the numbers represent a certain amount of time after release, though I’m not sure what the specific criteria are. The numbers are on Wikipedia. They don’t seem to change much if at all for older titles while new ones are added as appropriate. Superman:Doomsday got an event boost of sorts because it was the first of the line and benefited from the hype surrounding a new animation studio dedicated to “bringing classic comic book stories to the screen.” (They didn’t follow that premise for long.) The line as a whole has seen a pretty consistent drop in sales with just a handful of exceptions.

  • Thomas Hayes

    To anyone reading these comments, I can’t recommend both Wonder Woman and Superman/Batman Apocalypse enough. The former is a pretty standout film amongst the DC Animated film canon, amongst the best if not THE best. Apocalypse is not up to that standard, but it’s gorgeous, it’s centred around Supergirl’s origin (and does it better than the comic) and – here’s the clincher:

    Wonder Woman, and Big Barda, vs the Female Furies. In one of the best action scenes I’ve seen in an animated action movie. Yes, that’s right. A fight scene with only women in it. And it’s awesome! Go and watch it!

  • http://runt.org/ Adrian

    Agreed. I recommend it often! It’s definitely my favorite among those top 10.

  • Rebecca Pahle

    …That’s in absolutely no way even close to an actual analysis of box office figures. Among the things it disregards is that, after a certain point, earnings plateau. The amount of money earned per year isn’t going to stay steady.

  • Mina

    When they were talking about the bad sales, I started getting really sad, thinking, “Really? People really aren’t buying the Wonder Woman movie? Why? Why is the world so unwilling to support this goodness?”

    And then you posted the sales numbers.

    It sold better than the Justice League films? It sold better than Under the Red Hood? You’re telling me that, in fact, it is their fourth best-selling title thus far?! WTAF. What is with the double standard for super ladies’ sales numbers, WB?! This is insane.

    I could maybe see an argument if it sold poorly in its first year or something and that’s what they’re thinking of. But in that case, I’d counter with “Where was the marketing?” I remember ads for several of the others films in that top 10. I didn’t even hear about the Wonder Woman film until a few years after it was released. What is going on and how do we make this nonsense stop already?

  • Supermorff

    That’s a good point. I’m not going to claim that this is tremendous insight. The calculation was done in about a minute in Excel. But there has to be some way of taking account of the time since release.

  • Jessica Andersen

    I wonder how much of this feeds into that whole “fake” geek girl culture thing. Maybe they are afraid to seem like they are pandering to this geek girl demographic and abandoning the “real fans.”

    I know that I personally would watch any Wonder Woman movie, live action or animated, and would love another TV series. I’ve been a fan since I had the underoos as a little kid.

  • Lindsey Stock

    I agree, the marketing sucked. I had absolutely no idea that the Wonder Woman movie existed until about a year after its release when my friend showed up at my house with the dvd and forced me to watch. And then I was like, “OMG this is the best thing ever, how could I not know this existed I fail as a Wonder Woman fan!” Sales tend to be lower if the public doesn’t know that your product exists.

  • http://skemono.blogspot.com/ Skemono

    The website linked to in the original post gives per-week sales (at least for the first couple of weeks) for each film. So we can check this.

    According to them, Wonder Woman had the second-worst release week in terms of sales, and the worst release week in terms of units sold:

    (1) Batman: Gotham Knight
    $4,529,852 / 220,753 sold
    (2) Superman: Doomsday
    $4,032,422 / 288,236 sold
    (3) Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths
    $3,294,630 / 205,529 sold
    (4) Superman/Batman: Public Enemies
    $3,272,736 / 197,629 sold
    (5) Justice League: The New Frontier
    $2,796,806 / 160,736 sold
    (6) Green Lantern: First Flight
    $2,587,191 / 158,238 sold
    (7) Batman: Under the Red Hood
    $2,560,609 / 163,964 sold
    (8) Superman/Batman: Apocalypse
    $2,494,194 / 144,927 sold
    (9) Wonder Woman
    $1,974,459 / 102,890 sold
    (10) All Star Superman
    $1,824,736 / 113,197 sold

  • Thomas Hayes

    Seems like it’s because it had very little promotion and no word of mouth until later, judging by the fans I’ve been talking to. Also, I can’t believe All-Star sold so badly initially – the comic it’s based on is legendary! Gotham Knight benefited from coming out around the time of TDK, and Doomsday was the first, so they have a big advantage.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    Look at the last Superman?

    Oh trust me, I didn’t.

    I like Superman; why put myself through that?

  • http://skemono.blogspot.com/ Skemono

    Aye, that’s certainly a possibility–commenters here keep bringing up how poorly Wonder Woman was advertised. I have no idea myself, but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me. That sort of self-fulfilling sexist prophecy is all too common:

    Executive: “This movie stars a woman, so it won’t sell well, so we won’t spend a lot of money advertising it.”
    Audience: “We don’t know this movie exists, so we can’t buy it.”
    Executive: “Nobody bought it, so movies with women don’t sell.”

  • Cowtools

    Am I the only one who thought the Wonder Woman animated movie was…just okay.

    Don’t get me wrong; it’s a travesty that her DVD outsold Green Lantern and HE gets a movie, and that they canceled the Batgirl DTV movie, but I think people are staring to exaggerate the WW movie’s virtues because it is the ONLY movement on that front we’ve got in the last decade.

    But the movie was pretty unambitious, with a boring choice of villain, and a bland one-dimensional plot. Diana herself, and the Amazons, were great, but they portrayed Steve Trevor as the the kind of straw misogynist you see in bad rom-coms, where the girl falls for the sexist idiot because he’s so incorrigible.

    It wasn’t a bad movie, but when I hear people say about making a WW live action movie “Oh, they should just adapt the animated film”, I worry that the executives are right and Wonder Woman is too ‘tricky’ to please everyone.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    I wanted to be hopeful.

    Emo Superman killed that like it was Zod.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nuuni.nuunani Nuuni Nuunani

    Its not helped that when anyone brings up an opinion about wonder womans personality on this site it tends to lead into long discussions on which interpretation of the character is the ‘correct one’ ^^;

  • Thomas Hayes

    Comic fandom in a nutshell.

  • Thomas Hayes

    It isn’t a brilliant movie. None of the DC animated films are. They’re basically B-movies and they tend to feel like it. But I do like it a lot and I think you’re selling it short. Wonder Woman succeeds at being an enjoyable film about a superheroine AND actually being about something, rather than just being an excuse for fight scenes (Like Superman/Batman:Public Enemies for example) which makes it stand out.

  • Charlie

    Notice that the wonder woman movie outsold the very movie they changed to have a male-centric title.

  • Charlie

    My best friend doesn’t watch cartoons he just doesn’t but he told me that he really enjoyed it after I recommended it to him.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nuuni.nuunani Nuuni Nuunani

    I find it a depressing reality to be honest XD It makes a sad sort of sense too considering the varying interpretations are practically entirly different characters who have more differences than similarities. (I imagine people would have loved the depowered diana prince as a character if she had a different name since she was so kickass)

    But still….I personally dont think there is an interpretation of the character that everyone would be 100% approving of. It is even worse than superman who has lead to loads of argument and debate on where or not he would have killed anyone

  • Angela

    That was almost 10 years ago. That’s like Marvel beating themselves up for Daredevil.

  • Anonymous

    “We’re basing it on sales… no wait, ‘whims’. I meant ‘whims’.”

  • Anonymous

    They didn’t make a second WW animated film because the powers that be at WB “knew” it didn’t sell well. No one bothered to check the numbers, because it was too obvious… Obvious that it would have gone far too much against pre-conceived notions to even ask if the WW animated film did anything in sales. WB didn’t name the Supergirl film after Supergirl because there’s no sales in female character centered DC films… After all, if there were, there would have already been another WW film.

    And so it goes…

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    “No wait, I mean ‘outdated gender stereotypes’ in defiance of actual polling.”

    I mean, the real truth here, to me, seems to be that DC has no interest in growing the brand. The “New 52″ is a loveletter to the boom of the 90s, full of stunts & power fantasies & pouchs costume seams. It is meant to appeal to what they imagine their core audience is; white men who like wrestling. That is not a dig at wrestling, I’m just saying it seems that now DC is driven by macho posturing & big events & male status games. That isn’t because only men of a certain demographic read comics; it is because that is the demographic they have chosen to pursue. So when they say “sales” what they mean is– they aren’t interesting in selling to a wider market.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    I wanted to believe a man could fly, too, but when I read the reviews I made the hard choice, because I know I would have been So Angry. I’m a Superman guy– the ultimate alienation story, the freak who tries his best to fit in & manages to find friends & love but not quite fit in? Also sweet fortress?– which ironically means I couldn’t bring myself to see that Superman movie.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    I haven’t seen it so I can’t really participate in the critique, but I can easily pinpoint why I didn’t see it: Superman kills. Superman lets people die. Which is basically like saying “Oh hey we made this awesome Lord of the Rings movie, only at the end Frodo puts on the Ring & is like ‘oh yeah, ultimate power!’ & he has a sword fight with Sauron & wins thanks to the power of the Ring!”

    Which is to say, fundamentally missing the point entirely.

  • Mark Brown

    Followed up by Supergirl vs. Darkseid and Superman vs. Darkseid.

    Really, it’s just an awesome movie all-around, based on an awesome comic arc, featuring the best version of Supergirl we’ve ever gotten.

  • Anonymous

    Bullcrap-let the ladies get off of their asses and BUY the titles in question. Do they do that, though?

    Also, it was time-high time-to bring Babs back as Batgirl.

  • Anonymous

    Your loss, other’s gain.

  • Anonymous

    Perhaps the movie will have a title similar to Man Of Steel

  • Veronica Cristina

    if you saw the preview for JL:War you would really not be interested.
    Unless they develop the character

  • Anonymous

    The Superman/Batman : Apocalypse movie didn’t sell as much as Wonder Woman. That’s because movies with male characters don’t sell. They totally should stop making those for all eternity.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    I’ve seen that available to watch on Netflix a THOUSAND times and never considered it, because it didn’t make it apparent there were women in it.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    No, that’s DC’s LOSS.

    In addition, the “other’s gain” comment, what does that even mean. It’s a movie, you don’t get special powers from it.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Yes, after awhile it just begins to feel like they don’t want our girl cooties on their stuff.

    Which is fine, I’ll give my money to Dark Horse.

  • http://www.aeryllou.tumblr.com/ Aeryl

    Yeah, it couldn’t possibly be that Green Lantern wasn’t their next big franchise because, unlike Iron Man, it was terrible?

  • Veronica Cristina

    In New 52 Diana want Superman to be a warrior. he is not a warrior, if you want a warrior date one. now with new 52 you can expect more superman-ww romance in the animated movies

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    No, it wasn’t that. It was because he spent most of the movie moping around.

    Superman is hope. That’s the whole point of Superman. Watching him spend almost all his time being broody really kills the hope.

    I liked the actor, but the movie missed out on what makes Superman an iconic and inspirational figure. That he always has hope, and gives freely of that to others.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    It’s a good thing you passed. While I’ve always been slightly more into Batman than Superman, I won’t deny that Superman makes me feel hopeful, optimistic, and inspires me to try harder to be better.

    Watching him get turned into emo space Jesus for a couple of hours just made me feel sad.

    Not really what you want to go for in a Superman movie.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    Exactly.

    The most insulting part of it is that DC has always had some of the most recognizable, complex, and interesting women in comics.

    Watching them ignore that to pander to their idea of what they want their readers to like is not something I can stomach easily.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    Had to come back and look at those numbers again.

    It’s funny. Can’t say I can explain this, but while I consider Under The Red Hood to be one of the finest DC Animated movies ever made, I haven’t bought it, but I grabbed Wonder Woman the first chance I got.

    I think they are on par in terms of quality and story, but looking at the sales numbers again, I wonder why I did that.

    Oh, I know. Anything Batman will be on the shelf for as long as you want to wait, but Wonder Woman will become hard to find quickly. That’s what it was.

  • Mina

    I know a lot of people had a problem with Superman killing, but to me, they did a decent job of making it to where he only did it because he was pushed into a corner and saw no other way out. It was very clear that he did NOT want to do it and was very upset that he had. He just wasn’t given any other option. I completely understand if you just aren’t interested, but I’m just saying that, to me, he still felt like Superman.

  • Tricia Ennis

    I think the existence of the article, the numbers in questions, and perhaps this website as a whole, proves that there is a female comics market. Why is this still a debate?

    As for your second comment, while Babs is hands-down my favorite Batgirl, I would argue her time as Oracle to be much more interesting from a character perspective. She was a paraplegic who could hold her own against some serious bad guys, could take down Black Canary in a fight if she needed to (though, yes, she was under the control of Brainiac at the time), and managed to make herself indispensable to the entire DC Universe (from Batman to the Suicide Squad) while still managing to remain anonymous. All while dealing with PTSD. If that’s not an inspirational character, I don’t know what is.

  • totz the plaid

    …couldn’t they try and see how it does?

    I mean, the numbers suggest it’ll do well!

    Especially since their previous Wonder Woman was released BEFORE her book was one of the best of the line!

    Maybe they’re just afraid they’ll have to admit that female characters can kick ass?

  • Edward Liu

    Hi, I’m the person who interviewed James Tucker and got that answer (which, as you point out, is the same one the WB Animated people have been getting since forever). My understanding of the rationale behind the “sales don’t support it” argument from the home video people (who, in the end, are the ones signing the checks to make these movies) is that “Wonder Woman” sold slowly and built up to that #4 spot over a longer span of time. It’s the blockbuster mentality, or just an exceptionally good rationalization, but the net effect is the same: no Wonder Woman solo movie. FWIW, I understand that the same rationale is also why there’s no more GL movies, even though the numbers above would suggest it would sell better than a Superman solo movie (considering the outstanding “All-Star Superman” lands at #10 on that list).

    By now, I’d think that the runaway success of “The Hunger Games” at the box office, the strong box office of “Brave,” and of Nickelodeon’s “Legend of Korra” would be more proof that female leads can succeed just fine in the action genre. The really interesting (or infuriating) comparison is the interview I did with Bryan Konietzko, Joaquim Dos Santos, and P.J. Byrne at NYCC, where I explicitly asked them how they broke every rule in the book on making an action cartoon (female lead who’s a distinct shade of brown and no merchandising deal). http://www.toonzone.net/2013/10/nycc-2013-legend-korra-interview-byrne-joaquim-dos-santos-bryan-konietzko/

  • Raiden

    Personally, I feel it has more to do with Wonder Woman not having a mega empire franchise behind her, than outright sexism on the part of anyone at WB. (Though I wouldn’t rule it out)

    Batman and Supes have literally DOZENS of films, cartoons, live action TV shows and comics backing their bankability up. Even the terrible ones have at least a few hardcore fans. What does WW have backing her up? A cheesy live action TV show and an prominent but not central role in the DCAU. She didn’t even get her own spinoff!

    Everyone knows Lex Luthor and Joker, but who is even casually aware who WWs archnemesis is?

    Everyone knows Dark Knight Returns and the Death Of Superman. Can anyone name an Equally powerful story featuring WW? ( I’m being completely serious, off the top of my head I can’t think of one. Any of you girls have a reccomendation for a good WW story?)

    WW simply put, has a lot of Catching up to do. It’s not necessarily sexism, it’s the fact that DC and WB only focused on two out of three of the big three, and the apparent sexism is just an unfortunate implication. t’s just my opinion as a casual fan however, Im probably glossing over a lot of stuff.

  • Thomas Hayes

    Indeed. Aside from the two title characters and Darkseid, EVERY other named character in the film is a woman. But only those three and the “dark” version of Supergirl appear on the cover.

  • http://zacshipley.com/ Zac Shipley

    To be fair, they’re not really picking on Wonder Woman, they also said no more Green Lantern standalone movies. Earlier this year they put out a Flashpoint adaptation which was definitely a Flash story but called it “Justice League: Flashpoint Paradox”

    Now if they just want to build up the Justice League brand, I’d say that is a good reason to do this. Hell, everyone wants to point to the Timm era Justice League as the best of the animated stuff. I think Superman and Batman are the real exceptions here since they’re the only characters DC is willing to make a movie with aside from the JLA.

    Personally now that the dust is starting to settle, can I get a Young Justice movie to properly finalize that series?

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    Honestly, given Superman’s killing/Zoning of Zod in the past, I would have been willing to let it slide…except “There’s Always A Way” is one of my favorite lines from All-Star, & I think it is a defining statement about the character. Which is to say, Zod being like “oh, you HAVE to kill me, it is The Only Way!” is even MORE explicitly a rejection of the heart of the character. I would have accepted “as the last son of Krypton, you fate falls to me” or something, possible. Also– letting his dad die, & a cowardly Jonathan Kent is ANOTHER core misunderstanding of the character. The Kents, the hard scrabble Depression Era farmers, are important to Superman’s moral fabric; focusing on Jor-El to amp up the Jesus stuff is a perfectly fine way to go, but throwing Jonathan Kent under the bus, & having Superman stand by while he dies? Again, that isn’t Superman. Superman saves people. That is a scene where Superman should save his father & his father should say “I was wrong, Clark, you are here to help people. People like me.”

    So yeah; being pushed into a corner & not given any other option happens to Superman a lot; but like with Manchester Black, Superman always finds a way.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    This is where I fall to my knees in the rain, raise my fists to the sky & shout:

    “CASSANDRA CAIN FOREVER!”

    (But while I’m mentioning Batgirls, the dismantling of Oracle & the same-old-boring-retcon of her back into Batgirl is another bad move, if you ask me, but personally I chalk that up to the “reboot”– New 52! A reboot! Not a reboot! No wait a reboot! No wait no!– aspect of it; sooner or later she’d end up back behind a keyboard. Or she would if I didn’t expect another Crisis ever 2-5 years from now on.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    While I’m being a curmudgeonly old man about it, I don’t like those Nolan movies. Batman is dumb, the plots make less sense than one of the crummier Shyamalan movies, & they are devoid of any pathos. Except the villains; credit where credit is due for Joker & Catwoman & Bane-up-until-the-third-act.

  • dontmindme

    Here’s the question people are asking, sir: How are we supposed to know there’s a Wonder Woman movie/anything starring female characters TO buy if WB and DC don’t promote and advertise them? Way to miss the point.

    Oh, and de-aging Babs to put her in a role she’d outgrown and could be held by two other women- lol. You don’t get it. Babs was doing something never before seen in comics: building a female legacy and a female network to support and nourish that legacy. Batgirl may have begun as the distaff counterpart to Batman but Babs grabbed it, claimed it as her own, and passed it down the line, giving it legitimacy and allowing it to stand on its own. That’s what pisses people off, the first fully female legacy was wiped from the face of DC like bad garbage. For the first time, women had a legacy wholly separate from male characters and DC destroyed it and refuses to allow ANY mention of it.

  • David Zgurski

    This is a deeply institutional problem that should have us questioning whether so-called progressive men in the comic book and movie businesses real feel there’s a place for a blockbuster female superhero lead. I’m of the opinion most of them are hypocrites, because if they want a Wonder Woman movie so bad, they could get one made. Wonder Woman’s still one of the “big three” as far as I know them (I’m not up on the new 52 and what’s changed,) and the fact that there hasn’t been one Wonder Woman film franchise made is very telling, when Batman and Superman have had numerous. The higher-ups at DC and Warner Bros. are deliberately withholding her from having a successful film franchise because they know it’s a Pandora’s Box of success once it’s opened, and it may cost them their jobs, because they are dinosaurs. Comic books and movies based on them are still an old boys’ club. I can’t find one all-female-made title to support on the local bookshelf, so I have to go digging online. It’s still a niche market even though women are the majority population. Once girls see a blockbuster Wonder Woman movie, and then a blockbuster Supergirl movie, and then a Black Widow movie, etc., that’s it for male-dominated comic book movie stuff. Fat bearded geek patriarchy comes to a grinding halt, and I would say good riddance to bad rubbish if it actually happened. You will have empowered the largest possible audience to claim what is rightfully theirs, i.e. female superheroes in blockbuster movies as the leads. EVERYTHING CHANGES. A whole generation will see what they’ve been missing all these years and will want more. The powers that be DO NOT WANT THAT. They want us, men and women, to keep bickering over sausage-fest Star Wars and Superman/Batman movies. Those movies make enough money to keep everyone happy with the status quo. There’s no point in telling them that the Wonder Woman animated DVD sold more copies than this or that other male superhero DVD. They know, and they aren’t listening.

  • dontmindme

    Honestly, they need to stop using the Justice League title on their movies. It only pisses people off when they realize the movie has no ties to the Justice League TV show.

  • Anonymous

    To be fair, it’s based on a comic book that’s part of the Superman/Batman series. It never was a Supergirl story in any medium so it’s not surprising that they sold the film that way.

  • Anonymous

    Psh, why have facts when you can just be sexist? >.>

  • Anonymous

    “”No wait, I mean ‘outdated gender stereotypes’ in defiance of actual polling.”

    Apply cold water to the burn, DC.

  • dontmindme

    I was one of the late comers to PR because of that terrible marketing. Had I known what the movie was actually about, I would have been there opening weekend, maybe twice. Instead, I waited until I saw the review for it here and suddenly went, “well, maybe this is good, after all.” I saw it in theaters four times after that.

  • Anonymous

    Wonder Woman selling slowly could be part of it…there’s also this fear of putting minorities on the titles, and giving someone other then the privileged their own story.

  • Anonymous

    “Steve Trevor wasn’t really a sexist. He’s mostly a product of middle America with a ladies man complex.”

    Regardless of what you learned, it’s your responsibility to unlearn it, especially if it hurts others.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think that’s fair, to marginalize more then one minority :( I think that sucks.

  • Anonymous

    The problem is that all those cartoons and films that Superman and Batman have that Wonder Women doesn’t have, they were all made by WB. All the studio has done to promote her was the live action TV show and the one animated film, and both of them were successful. And the argument of no villain/famous storyline would be a good one in an era that doesn’t have a second tier character like Iron Man beating box office records.

    No one is arguing that Wonder Women should be promoted as much as Batman. The problem is that, like you said, they have a lot of catching up to do and they’re blaming the market for their decision to stand still. The numbers say otherwise.

  • J Ritchey

    Most of the movie wasn’t so bad. They just spectacularly mis-cast the lead. Replace Reynolds with someone likeable and with more than one character setting, like Ben Browder, and it could have been good.

  • Thomas Hayes

    It may have been in Superman/Batman, but the story was originally called “The Supergirl from Krypton”, and the trade paperback looks like this: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080619105412/marvel_dc/images/8/88/Superman_Batman_Supergirl_TP.jpg
    So the fact that the film has a changed name and quite different cover art which doesn’t show her in her costume stands out quite clearly.

  • Anonymous

    Why?

    Oracle was awesome (though, yes, I see the argument that with all the tech.magic surrounding her, she could be “fixed”) – but again, why? Dick Grayson was allowed to grow up and become Nightwing. Thanks to that, we have the awesome that is Tim Drake. Just because a magic macguffin could be applied to Babs, why would she -stop- being Oracle? Why that, instead of developing Cass or Stephanie in that role? Babs could be the mentor who had been through Batman’s shit already, and earned her own identity. Instead, she’s regressed. Don’t get me wrong – I love Babs, and Babs is the original and a super awesome Batgirl. But I hate seeing all she’s done since then blown off for nostalgia.

  • dontmindme

    most of the movie wasn’t bad? I guess we watched two different movies. I don’t think Reynolds was miscast simply because the script was so terrible, it’s difficult to make that judgement.

  • TokenOfficeGoth

    The other day I saw an official merch Justice League t-shirt at EB Games—it featured portraits of Green Lantern, Superman, Batman, Aquaman annnnnd…..The Joker. The JOKER. They replaced Wonder Woman with a villain rather than feature a picture of a woman on a men’s t-shirt, even if she would be alongside 4 other dudes.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t know. She may not be in her Supergirl costume but I don’t know what they gain from it considering she’s still on the cover. It’s not like they were hiding her. Also, I do believe Darkseid belongs in the cover considering his importance in the film and the DCU.

    I will agree that both the title change and her costume on the cover were mistakes. They both look very generic.

  • Thomas Hayes

    She may still be on the cover, but she’s not recognisable as Supergirl. That’s the issue. Lauren Montgomery, the film’s director, was very open about this at the time (http://www.movieweb.com/news/superman-batman-apocalypse-world-premiere-qa)

  • http://zacshipley.com/ Zac Shipley

    Hal Jordon and Barry Allen aren’t really minorities.

    I think this speaks less to DC’s insensitiveness with women and minorities and more that they don’t know how to handle ANY characters other than Superman or Batman. So every other hero must team up with them.

  • Nightxade

    I’m so confused. How does DC math work?

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    While they weren’t what I had hoped for, they were still better than what we’d had before.

    Bat nipples.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    I was thinking of Manchester Black and The Elite the whole time during the final act of Man of Steel.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    What they did to Starfire.

    Man. I can’t even talk about.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    “Hey, this popular Teen Titans show could provide a great opportunity to drag a diverse audience over to our print comics…so instead let’s not do that! TnA! Guns! Woooo!”

  • LifeLessons

    “What gives?”

    Sexism combined with arrogance and stupidity? Just a thought.

  • blu girl

    Definitely. I didn’t watch Superman/Batman Apocalypse until my brother told me it was actually about Jeph Loeb’s Supergirl arc! I had no interest in seeing yet another film focused on Batman/Superman. If Supergirl was in the title I would’ve watched it when it was released. It’s fantastic.

  • dontmindme

    lol, so? The public associates it with a TV show they remember fondly and have wanted some extra expansion of for years. They see something labeled Justice League, get excited, only to be brought down because it’s not THE Justice League. WB and DC know how popular that show was; ‘tricking’ customers doesn’t inspire confidence.

  • The Numbers are not The Number

    Have you considered the numbers you’re quoting are completely wrong? The premise that some Warner exec hasn’t bothered to “google” this info and isn’t aware they’re sitting on a gold mine is ridiculous. More likely they are basing their decisions – progressive or not – on actual sale figures they didn’t find on the internet.

  • Pablo Sanchez

    So they cant use the title “justice league” ?? , because a few people still hope for a expantion of the tv show thats dont make any sence , the show was canceled , what , 8 , 9 years ago??

    these movies aim for the comic books fans , and they aknowledge these films are based on particular comic books arcs

    so who the should call a movie about justice league? ,lol , they use the name JL because its about JL!!

  • Cerberus

    I…am glad that they did retcon Oracle. Even Alan Moore has gone on record as saying that what was did to Barbara Gordon was wrong.

  • http://cainslatrani.blogspot.com/ Cain S. Latrani

    Yes, it’s always better when your super powered alien princess is a slut, because girls like sex and stuff, we think. Marketing!

    Somehow, I just know they focus grouped her swimwear.

  • Raiden

    Well Iron Man does have several prominent Story lines (Civil War, Demon In A Bottle, The Extremis Arc) and Villains (Mandarin, Living Laser, Modok) And in the comics he was far from a second Tier Character even years before the movie began production, he lead The Avengers, was a surrogate father to a distraught Spider-Man, Co-Wrote the SuperHuman Registration Act, and even briefly became the Secretary of Defense. He was less popular than Spidey and the X-Men, but was never “Second Tier”.

    Can we necessarily say the same for WW?

    Again, off the top of my head I can’t think of one decent WW centered story arc. And I’d love to see a decent WW story-Arc on par with something like Dark Knight Returns. But from my experience most writers just don’t seem to get WW. I greatly enjoyed Dianas character in the DCAU and would love to see her done justice on the big screen. But until somebody at DC finally decides to give WW her due with a Knightfall or it’s doubtful she’ll get the respect she deserves.

    Again, Im not necessarily defending WBs decision. Im just trying to promote understanding for Why they made the decision.

  • sean

    hey. have you ever seen any Wonder WOman shirts made for men in stores? I dont mean online but physical stores?
    DC doesn’t sell their products to men.
    That’s the bigger problem.

  • Beverly Ann Nelms

    As a woman in a wheelchair, I disagree.

  • Matt Baen

    That’s a pretty good sales number considering that Gotham Knight had the benefit of being released around the same time as The Dark Knight and was viewed as kind of (but not really) being in continuity with the Nolanverse.

    DC: Cravenly scared shitless about how to handle what must be the third most widely recognized superhero on earth (!!!), and whose popularity extends far outside of the geekoverse. ‘Oh shucks, how ever shall we deal with a Strong Female Character? What a liability. After all, those blockbuster action movies Tomb Raider and Hunger Games starred dudes, right?’

  • Stewart Zoot Wymer

    It has been proven that marketing things specifically to geeks is a sucker’s game. Even a successful “geek” movie makes small potatoes compared to conventional blockbusters.

    Superhero movies, even based on comic characters are wandering away from a purely geek market. I’m not sure if the statistics for “not enough female readers” in the comic geekdom really matter a damn. If you make a superhero movie in this day and age, you’re really looking at a larger market with a different demographic. I wonder also if “not enough market to support” is code for “don’t want to alienate the rest of the comic book market with a female lead.”

    I’m not a comic book geek (I’m different forms of geek! Respect!) but I don’t know how potentially sexist they are? Would they be that offended to have a female-lead story? I think it’s beyond catering to how large a specific tiny audience is and more on “what would be accepted by the majority”? Just thinking in purely economic terms here. If some sexist comic book geeks get their jocks in a twist, sod them and look at the rewards of an entire non-geek populace coming to the party.

  • Anonymous

    I disagree about Iron Man.

    First, none of those storylines are that famous except Civil War but that’s because it involved everyone in the Marvel Universe. Secondly, two of those storylines (Extremis and Civil War) happened pretty much at the same time the first film went into production, so they didn’t influenced Marvel’s decision to make the film. And third, well those villains are not that good. The only one they could use in a film was a heavily modified version of the Mandarin. MODOK is famous because he is silly and I don’t know Living Laser, even though my knowledge of comics is well above average.

    Now compare with Wonder Woman.

    You say Iron Man is an important part of The Avengers, she’s part of the Justice League. She’s DC’s most famous hero after Batman and Superman. You want villains? The gallery created for her is not amazing and some of them show their old age but the more interesting aspect of her mythology IMO is the part that deals with the Greek Gods, a mythology everyone knows. Ares is probably the villain the most apt at making the big screen.

    My point isn’t that Iron Man sucks. I think that the character was only known by comic book fans but had potential that his studio was smart enough to see. Heck, they’re currently developping a movie with a racoon and a talking tree. At the same time, WB has a character that everybody knows and they have no idea what to do with it.

    P.S.: The problem might be that you haven’t read any storyline that you really liked. This list is pretty good:

    http://www.newsarama.com/15452-10-wonder-woman-stories-worth-checking-out.html

    I don’t recommend the stories written by Marston – they show their age – but the rest are an excellent place to start. If you’re a fan of Warren Ellis, he is currently writing the New 52 reboot. Peres’ Wonder Woman is more my style but if you like Extremis, this might be for you.

  • April

    Unless a female fronted picture sells the MOST, and by a considerable margin, they’ll never admit that female leads can sell movies. It’s received wisdom at this point, and isn’t going to be challenged by little things like facts.

  • Mina

    Oh totally agree on Jonathan Kent dying unnecessarily. That was done poorly. On Zod, I disagree but understand. It was definitely a somewhat unorthodox Superman film.

  • Mina

    That is horrifying. What even.

  • Mina

    Meh. It doesn’t feel like my Batman if it doesn’t have Kevin Conroy, but I can still enjoy Conroy-less Batman all the same. I would think most people have the same policy on the Justice League too.

  • Harrison Grey

    The problem isn’t necessarily that DC has no faith in their female characters, it’s that they have no faith in any of their characters other than Superman and Batman. They did essentially give us a Supergirl movie, with strong supporting roles for Wonder Woman and Big Barda. They just framed it as a Superman/Batman movie because they thought it would sell more (and the Superman/Batman comic was the actual source for the story).

  • Alex Hardison

    But they DO buy them. Look at the figures posted in the article. Warner Bros have got it so fixed in their heads that female starring TV that they can’t see the facts.

  • Raiden

    If you haven’t read “Demon In A Bottle” I highly reccomend that you do. It’s easily the darkest Iron Man story, and a suprisingly realistic exploration of the psychology of an Alchoholic.

    Thanks for the reccomendations. What I meant by writers “Not getting” WW is that they seem to do one of two extremes, make her an over the top Straw Feminist (Like Frank Millers All-Star: Batman and Robin), or an overtly perfect Mary Sue (The Silver Age).

    The DCAU Wonder Woman struck a perfect balance for the Character she’s strong, but also compassionate and relatable. But few people writing the books seem to be able to hit that balance.

    Hoping for the future!

  • Tricia Ennis

    I agree that there is a disconnect in the eyes of the publishers and studios in regards to WHO a female story could be aimed at. The thought seems to be that a female based story could only be appealing to female viewers/readers, when in reality they should understand that men will watch/read them as well.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    I’ve also just given Snyder too many chances. I’m still pretty angry about Suckerpunch.

  • http://theballisflat.info/ Armando G

    Wonder Woman is one of their biggest properties. How do you do that to one of the few comic book characters that transcends gender, genre, media, etc.?

  • AshVeridian

    Yes thank you, slam that into the face of all the disabled comics readers out there.

  • Cerberus

    Sorry just the way feel. Maybe DC can create another character to take up the mantle.

  • Charlie

    I’m the only person in my group of very geeky friends who reads comics. When I’m gaming online, I’m always the geekiest person in the skype call. I really don’t understand this whole ‘girls don’t like superheroes’ thing. I think they need to get real and stop acting like it’s 1913 instead of 2013.

  • Charlie

    Isn’t that kind of a circular argument? She doesn’t have a media presence because she doesn’t have a media presence? Seems like a flimsy excuse to me.

  • Charlie

    Why is that the blame is put on the female lead character rather than the writing or anything else. The Green Lantern film was horrible, clearly their flawed logic should dictate that all male superheroes must inevitably do badly in the cinema and they should stop making male led movies.

  • Sidney Tucker

    They screwed up Barbara Gordon.. She was so much better as Oracle. And now Birds of Prey is barely readable. Don’t get me started again on how little I dig the New 52.

  • Todd Carney

    But what’s funny here is the company line. Even the great Andrea Romano is repeating what she’s heard: that the Wonder Woman home video release didn’t sell well… when actually it did. I guess they can’t really respond: “We haven’t properly built Wonder Woman up as a property over the last 70 years, so we’re too afraid to do so now. In fact, she’s as popular as she is in spite of our effort.”

    And as far as your questions about the general knowledge of WW character history compared to Supes and Bats, I’d like to test that. Not on the MarySue, of course, but I’ll put together a similar questionnaire for the peeps at Burbank’s hottest comic book store. You know, just to see!

  • Todd Carney

    Yeah, I avoided it too until I watched a clip of it on youtube with my son. That amazing fight of WW & Barda vs the Furies was edited to remove the boring Supes and Batman cutaways, so that when I finally went out and bought the DVD, I was frustrated that they kept cutting away from this awesome all-girl battle to show Superman strolling by himself and Batman fighting a dog.

  • Todd Carney

    Very good point! There do seem to be as many interpretations of how to do WW as there are fans. I do have faith that there are several interpretations that could all be enjoyable… much like with Superman and Batman and most characters.

  • Deggsy

    You forgot to factor in that animated women, like their living counterparts, tend to have to do twice as well as men in order to get half the credit.

  • Ryan Colson

    Flash was also in a jla flash centric film too….

  • http://www.facebook.com/nuuni.nuunani Nuuni Nuunani

    That is indeed very true. Though I confess, the way people act sometimes regarding the wonder woman discussions, I am left sorta dejected and depressed by the vitriol that builds up.

    At times it is almost like people could care less about the character or even activly dislike the varying interpretations of her and only like Wonder Woman for the fact that she is a woman
    How many fans of Wonder Woman for example, can claim any interest in Dane? http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Dane_of_Elysium_%28Earth-11%29

  • js

    I agree with everything you just said except for one tiny detail: You are railing about the first female held legacy being Batgirl’s… in the comment section of a Wonder Woman article. :) Just me being nit-picky, but I really do agree with what you said. I gave the New52 Gail S written Batgirl a chance, and really liked it, but the constant Bat cross-overs and her appearances in BoP drained me of interest. As for Birds of Prey, I thought I would hate it because of Starling… then I realized she is just Pre52 Huntress with guns. Dark hair, a past filled with mob connections, even still wears purple… too bad everything else about the book was bad. I gave up after the second trade.

  • Anonymous

    No…but John Stewart is.

  • Jamie Jeans

    Yeah, didn’t you know? Disabled people could never be superheroes or have any kind of positive effect on others. ;p

    Because when DC retconned Oracle, that’s exactly what they said. DC Comics have been failing in providing almost any kind of consistent diversity in the past couple of years, and have, in fact, gotten worse.

    Hell, part of me thinks they fired Gail Simone, and by e-mail no less, because she dared to bring in a transgender character in Batgirl.

  • BanrionTine

    They won’t let me up-vote this more than once, but I would! 100 times!

  • Anonymous

    True, but everyone has heard of the Doomsday story arc. It made national news when it was first done in the comics. That had to help boost sales.

  • Anonymous

    I found one shirt in men’s sizes at my comic shop. It was on a baby blue t-shirt, and it had Wonder Woman, Batgirl, and Supergirl on it under a rainbow and hearts and it said “Girl Power”. It’s pretty “girly”, but I bought it, and a matching one for my niece, since my nephew and I have a few shirts that match, but she and I don’t. (This was in her pre-comics stage, when she was still more into Disney princesses. She’s since started to read comics though. I was so proud when I took her and her brother to the dentist the other day, and they were both reading Spider-Girl graphic novels. :) ) I gave hers to her as a birthday present, and I was wearing mine for her birthday party. You would have thought I’d grown a third head or something, the way my family was looking at me.

  • Anonymous

    I thought sexism WAS arrogance and stupidity.

  • Anonymous

    Except this time, he couldn’t; he had to make a choice between Krypton and Earth, and he chose Earth, in that he killed Zod and saved the humans that Zod was about to kill, which related to what Jor-El said about Krypton having had it’s chance at being a civilization and blowing it (or maybe that was Superman who said it…) Either way, this was Superman’s version of the Kobayashi Maru test, and it shows how things are sometimes so so easy to do or decide for a hero, or for anybody. This was something that should have been done in a movie and comic book story a long time ago.

  • Anonymous

    Considering that in the current comics continuity, he and Martha are dead, and that Jonathan was killed off in both the previous comic book continuity and in Smallville, I’d say that it was a great story touch, and not out of place with the original continuities from 1938-1986 (including the John Byrne version, in which both parents were alive and he got advice from them and was both a comic and TV thing).

  • Anonymous

    Still your loss-please take some business courses and learn how thing are handled instead of being sulky and pouty.

  • Anonymous

    Inspirational to some, not to all; many men and women loved Babs as Batgirl, and wanted to see her come back-and since DC was retconning the DCverse anyway, it was logical to bring her back as Batgirl (love how they also kept Cass Cain as Black Bat and had her fight crime in Hong Kong she she can have her own turf.)

  • Anonymous

    Oh but they do do so-as I said before (before it was deleted) are the ladies buying it?

  • Denelian

    except the numbers would be the number releases BY WB.

  • Tricia Ennis

    ……. Who didn’t find Oracle an inspirational character? She was a superhero … in a wheelchair … who somehow still managed to make herself both useful to the heroes in the DCU, and a threat to the villains.

    I’m not saying that since, as you said, they were retconning the character anyway, bringing her back at Batgirl was a bad choice. I just honestly preferred her as Oracle. She was more sure of herself, more mature, more badass in my opinion.

  • http://mordicaifeed.tumblr.com/ Mordicai

    Right exactly. It was exactly the Kobayashi Maru test. Now wait a minute, I’m trying to think if there is another fictional character who took the Kobayashi Maru test but who might as well share the motto “there’s always a way” with Superman…oh right, Kirk! & what does Kirk do when faced with the no-win scenario?

    See? There’s always a way.

  • Thomas Hayes

    Cassandra Cain doesn’t even exist in the New 52, and was NEVER Batgirl in the New52 history, so I don’t know why you’re bringing her up.

    “Logical” doesn’t come into it.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, she does, she’s the Black Bat, and she’s based in Hong Kong, as I said before.

  • Anonymous

    You’d be surprised at the people who hated what was done to Babs in The Killing Joke who would love to see her as Babs again than have Batgirl be some ninja derivative (although I love Cass and think that she’s amazing.)

  • Thomas Hayes

    If it’s in Batman Inc. BEFORE Flashpoint, it doesn’t count. She has not been referred to by any Bat character or anyone else in the New 52, and Batman writer Scott Snyder wanted to use her but was prevented by his editors from doing so. She is currently persona-non-grata in the New52, like Steph was until Batman Eternal was announced.

  • Anonymous

    I have no problem with Oracle, or Babs being in a wheelchair, but I can see why DC wanted to go back to the original version of Batgirl, and it isn’t necasscarily nostalgia, just hatred of seeing a beloved character shot by the Joker in a nasty manner.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with you, sir/madame; people just don’t want to listen to truth on the Net, just bullcaca that they get from their butts.

  • Anonymous

    So typical of you that truth won’t intrude into your comments about this topic, despite what I and others might say.

  • Anonymous

    Are these figures REAL, or just ones posted because the writer of this article wants them to be?

  • Alex Hardison

    Well, they’re from The Numbers, which is considered quite reputable. Probably as accurate as is possible to get, given that DC don’t release official numbers.

  • Anonymous

    I’m going to need you to be more specific about your criticism here — I am, in fact, supportive of the fact that Jill is citing how the WW animated film performed to debunk the company line. Do you have an issue with that?

  • Vergil Kent

    True. Whenever you hear Superman and Doomsday in the same sentence you immediately think.. Epic.

  • Ant

    they are very real , even though the wonder woman movie made a bucket and way above GL in terms of revenue ( this is not global figures but US only figures , GL was given two films , go figure

  • Ant

    ive Always said that DC should just sell wonder woman to Marvel where they can do her some sort of justice , met Stan Lee at a comic con in Australia and i discussed that as he was signing a copy of Stan Lee wonder woman comic , he said that it was a shame that she wasn’t cared for by DC , that made me smile from ear to ear

  • Anonymous

    OMG SO EFFING TRUE!!!! Sad but true!