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Insidery

Creators Call For Fan Convention Boycott Over Co-Founder’s Sexual Abuse Charges


Ed Kramer, the co-founder of Atlanta, Georgia’s Dragon*Con has been in trouble with the law for years. He’s recently been extradited back to the state on child-molestation charges dating back to 2000 and while he no longer claims association with the convention, he still receives financial compensation from it thanks to shares he holds in the corporation. As a response to the most recent events, some creators are calling for a boycott of Dragon*Con until they take steps to remove Kramer from the institution entirely. 

Dragon*Con employees have insisted Kramer has had nothing to do with the planning or activities of the convention since his initial arrest in 2000 but he does receive profits from its success and therein lies the issue. Robot 6 writes, “He continues to receive annual dividends from DragonCon — $154,000 for 2011 alone, according to Atlanta Magazine — after attempts to buy out Kramer’s stake in the for-profit corporation proved unsuccessful.”

As a result, horror author Nancy A. Collins and former Swamp Thing writer Stephen Bissette took steps to alert other creators. Collins wrote:

I’d like to test it by seeing if social media can cut off the flow of money from DragonCon to accused child molester (and the convention’s co-owner) Ed Kramer, who has been using the 150K+ a year he receives each year from DragonCon to avoid trial and manipulate the justice system to allow him free reign to prey upon children, even while under supposed house arrest. All you have to do is publicly declare you will never attend DragonCon again as long as Edward Kramer profits from the convention.

DragonCon has had over 12 years to sever ties with this man, but has failed to do so. Although the convention’s chairman has bought enough shares from Ed Kramer to qualify as the controlling shareholder, Kramer refuses to be bought out. No matter what DragonCon does or says, funds from the convention will continue to go to Edward Kramer until either he dies or the corporation that runs the convention dissolves and reincorporates under another name. DragonCon knows what needs to be done, but has been dragging its feet on this matter, and has gone to great trouble over the last 12 years to hide the fact that they continue to fund Edward Kramer’s lifestyle. But now the cat’s out of the bag (in large part due to Kramer’s own decision to sue them for a larger share of the convention’s profits) and there’s no putting it back in.

After being charged with sexually abusing three teenage boys in 2000, Kramer was placed under house arrest after claiming he was too ill to stand trial. That order was lifted in 2008 and in 2011, Kramer was arrested in Connecticut on child endangerment charges. On Monday of last week, he was back in jail to finally face the charges from 2000. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution writes, “Kramer fought extradition to Georgia, but in December, he lost an appeal to the Connecticut Court of Appeals that would have stopped his return. Kramer was being held Monday without bond, jail records show.”

But comic creators aren’t the only ones making their opinions known, possible guests have as well. Adrianne Curry, the first America’s Next Top Model winner, cosplayer, and geek host took to Twitter  last week upon hearing the latest news. Curry is a fan convention regular and was the victim of sexual abuse as a child. “The founder of Dragon con was arrested for being a pedophile. I will NEVER attend dragon con,” Curry wrote. “Many will argue that the child molester is no longer associated w/dragon con. He helped build it…and as a survivor, I wont ever go.”

To my knowledge, no official petition has been drawn up asking Dragon*Con to take the needed steps to remove Kramer from the equation entirely.

(via Robot 6)

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  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    Be advised that there may be legal processes that prevent D*C from openly defending themselves while this is all going on. Remember that D*C have been trying to buy Kramer out / disown him for years, and this guy has the cleverness and wealth to drag things out for a long long time. I expect the ownership to do what it can to extricate itself and the convention itself from this sordid affair in a way that preserves the integrity of the event and the Atlanta fandom community that supports it. But I would argue that it is indeed a gigantic stretch to suggest that they have been harboring this guy willingly all this time – all existing evidence seems to indicate the opposite.

  • Anonymous

    That he still profits from the convention is an acceptable reason not to go. If they either have not bothered to get him off the rolls, or it is simply more trouble than they deemed necessary, this pressure may prove enough to change their mind. I too don’t think they were actively supporting him or his actions.

    To choose never to go simply he helped create the show…I guess I can’t really make that call. It’s not as if any of his actions were done at the show, or was part of the show in any oblique way, or believe me, they’d be trying to go after the con.

    Sometimes the source of a thing must, or at least can be divested from its current form. Today’s Geritol was unconnected to the game show scandals, for example. (I have a second example, but it would likely derail the discussion…)

  • http://twitter.com/hmax17 Hannah JoAnn

    The fact the man was able to keep from being tried for 13 yrs and then from being extradited for 2 yrs shows that this man is indeed good at working the system.

  • Anonymous

    According to the AJC – http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/qa-on-the-news-144/nQPtY/ – Kramer owns 34% of the stock of the company that puts on Dragon*Con. There is no way to “get him off the rolls”; if he chooses to hold onto his stake in the company, there is nothing Dragon*Con or anyone else can do to make him sell, take the shares from him, or otherwise deprive him of his co-ownership of Dragon*Con (short of, I suppose, closing the business altogether… and he might have enough of a stake to stop that too).

    I used to live in Atlanta and I remember reading years ago how the current con management was trying to disassociate themselves from him.

  • thequack

    Any move to force the convention management to buy him out is only going
    to benefit HIM by getting him a higher price for his shares. Someone has not thought this one through

    So he’s a shareholder in a corporation. So what? Accused criminals are allowed to own shares in corporations.

  • Anonymous

    My question is: in trying to deprive this guy of money by boycotting DragonCon, how many people who depend on the money from this will be hurt? Booth renters, operators, hotel owners and staff, etc…

  • http://twitter.com/Loerwyn Kathryn

    Well, as the article suggests, they could dissolve and reform, though that isn’t a simple solution (I’d think).

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=629870443 Mary Anne Butler

    I’m not quite sure what Jill is meaning by “creators”. Artists? Vendors? Celebrities? Because there is no official statement from the Con it’s self, other than “patience”. They are doing what they can (and have been trying) to cut ties to Kramer. Condemning an ENTIRE ORGANIZATION is not the way to go here.

  • http://zadl.org/ Captain ZADL

    I don’t think that hurting other innocent people (vendors, and others who make a living from D*C) is the way to get to one person. Enough innocents have been hurt already by this guy. No need to damage many other people’s lives by depriving them of income out of spite to one asshole.

    I understand the reasons though, I just think there’s probably a better way to go about depriving this jerk of the benefits. Perhaps the threat will work? I don’t know.

  • http://www.thenerdybird.com/ Jill Pantozzi

    Creators = writers Nancy A. Collins and Stephen Bissette

  • http://twitter.com/DanielReasor Daniel Reasor

    What’s stopping the other shareholders from simply ceasing to do business as that company and forming another without the child molester?

  • http://www.facebook.com/thebrovo Alexander Brovedani

    Theres a few problems though. Unless a man is found guilty, even if he seems as such, its really hard to play the lynch mob. I know it sounds like I’m an asshole, but theres so much fandom lynching and people playing judge, jury and executioner that I refuse to join in when I’m not totally knowledgeable of the situation. That said, if he is guilty then we can’t put everyone else at blame due to him. Because if thats the case, then shut down all the cons. I cant tell you how much I read of this sexual horrible acts and probably more that goes on in other businesses. Not to say that it should be tolerated, but unless the con or business as a whole is doing it, theres no need to punish the non culpable.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=157400537 Sara Crow

    There are legal ways to disassociate from someone like this. What this situation really means is that the creators did a crappy job of establishing their operating documents if they’re incapable of severing him from the corporation when he’s actively avoiding extradition.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    The amount of red tape in transferring all of the trademarks, licenses, and other assets that he would, as part owner, be entitled to a portion of even if it dissolves. I’m guessing that when the original contract was drawn up (likely not by practiced legal counsel), it didn’t give the shareholders a means to expel someone from the board by majority vote.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    One option that might be explored is that while he has yet to be criminally convicted, the other shareholders could sue him civilly, citing that his behavior is inflicting (or will inflict) financial damage on their livelihood.

  • Anonymous

    But does anyone believe that the other Dragon*Con shareholders *want* to continue to be associated with Kramer? Their con’s name gets dragged through the mud every couple years when this stuff comes up again — as it has now — and there’s no way it’s in their interest to have him continue to be involved.

    Did they do a bad job of incorporating? Maybe so. If you and I set up our own con next week, would we really make sure it was bulletproofed against every crazy eventuality? Chances are we’d be lucky to scrape together enough money to run an LLC through LegalZoom.

    There’s one obvious bad guy here. I’m not yet convinced it does any good to lash out at anyone else.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    It’d either 1) Cost more money that the con can afford, 2) Drag the con through the mud and risk its future, or 3) Leave Kramer in an even more comfortable position, which will get spun badly as “paying the pedophile off”.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    I definitely remember how they had to physically remove people from the premises attempting to raise money for Ed’s court fees.

  • http://twitter.com/ichicolco ichicolco

    “That he still profits from the convention is an acceptable reason not to go. If they either have not bothered to get him off the rolls, or it is simply more trouble than they deemed necessary, this pressure may prove enough to change their mind. I too don’t think they were actively supporting him or his actions.”

    And just how do your suggest the corporation force Ed to give up his shares? Do you really know that little about capitalism and corporations?

  • http://twitter.com/LauraTruxillo Laura Truxillo

    Ah. Oh no. Man, not D*C. C’mon, y’all, you’re the most amazing con in the country, you do charities, blood drives, bring people together, and provide the most warm, encompassing fun I’ve ever had at any convention. Live up to that awesomeness and cut this creep off already.

  • http://twitter.com/LauraTruxillo Laura Truxillo

    Well, it’s good to know they’ve been trying, I guess.

  • http://twitter.com/LauraTruxillo Laura Truxillo

    Gah, a con with the size and momentum of Dragon*Con…nah, I don’t see that happening at all.

  • Anonymous

    Why not reduce dividend payments?

  • gbeenie

    A little context might be in order here. Nancy Collins, along with her late husband, filmmaker Joe Christ, started screaming for Ed Kramer’s blood the INSTANT he was initially arrested (I mean, before even the first shred of evidence went public); since that time, they’ve parleyed this into a (vanishingly) small anti-D*C cottage industry. I can virtually guarantee that, if Dragon*Con succeeds in getting Kramer completely out of the financial loop (which, believe me, is something they REALLY REALLY REALLY want to do), Collins will find some other aspect to rail against (“Well, Kramer co-founded Dragon*Con, so they’re culpable for anything he’s ever done!”; granted, that’s not far off from what she’s saying now…).

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=157400537 Sara Crow

    This is a basic facet of creating Articles of Incorporation. It’s a simple “cover your ass” sort of clause and is very common. If you’re going to start a business, you are responsible to do your own basic research in business law or consult an attorney. There’s assistance all over the place, especially in a city like Atlanta, for free or almost no cost. I have very little sympathy for people who don’t do their homework, especially before going into business with someone else.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    One of the articles mentions a year in which the shareholders deliberately under-reported attendance in order to do just that. Kramer then sued them over it.

  • Anonymous

    This comes off sounding like an attack on Nancy, or at least extremely defensive of Ed, so I’d like to ask for a clarification.
    Are you suggesting the charges are utterly unfounded? Or that Nancy, et al, are wrong in their belief that he should be cut off from the convention?

    As a rule, especially if accusations are of a more…purient nature, people are separated from work that may be tainted by their association, and usually allowed to return if exonerated.
    It’s exceedingly hard to be exonerated of accusations of doing things with children; usually the taint of being “accused” remains. But based on the behavior (repeated) over the last 12 years, little if any exoneration has occurred. Or even been attempted.
    I agree that were step 2 be to boycott the show after a full separation occurs, that might be excessive (I’ve already said as much further up the chain), I see the benefit of finding a way of getting him off the rolls however.
    So, can you be a bit more clear in your opinions? Perhaps offer suggestions if you believe her motivations to be under question?

  • http://www.facebook.com/april.roberson.18 April Roberson

    From what I understand after reading the official facebook page of DragonCon and the rumor mill on it, the $150,000 was for backpay AFTER suing DragonCon in 2011 NOT for the year 2011. Also, they’ve been trying to get rid of him for years. I know 2 years ago they explained that he was not active in DragonCon anymore and had no authority. They are probably in a legal battle as we speak, but until he is convicted, they may not be able to be rid of him nor speak of the matter. I think the author and artists may be barking up the wrong tree in trying to resolve this issue.

  • gbeenie

    Lemme be clear: Based on what we’ve seen come out in the last 12 years, I’m fairly certain Ed Kramer is guilty as the day is long.

    That said, at the time of his initial arrest, there was virtually nothing known about the full nature of the charges against him. However, just as that didn’t stop business partner Pat Henry from proclaiming his certainty that Kramer was guilty of no wrongdoing (which is really dumb; folks, if a friend/business associate is accused of crimes as serious as these, what is the likelihood you would know about it beforehand?), it also didn’t stop Christ and Collins from engaging in a large amount of public breast-beating asserting that Kramer was guilty; the fact is, they knew as much as Pat Henry did, which is to say NOTHING.

    In the meantime, Dragon*Con has done pretty much everything it possibly can to disassociate itself from Ed Kramer (and I can tell you from first-hand experience, at first that separation was only on paper; but, in pretty short order, it became for real). Unfortunately, unless his shareholder agreement in the Con has an escape clause for the event of criminal prosecution, there really isn’t much else D*C can do (despite Jill’s mention, in her original piece, about “needed steps”).

    The timing of Nancy Collins’ renewed push against Dragon*Con (no one’s heard from her camp in quite a while), coming on the heels of Ed Kramer’s suit to try and cement/enhance his share of profits from D*C, has to me at least, the strong odor of fish.

  • Anonymous

    I didn’t make any suggestions. Some have been floated in this thread, tho I’ve no idea how feasible they are. I just believe that trying to fully separate him from the company, something, based on the reportage, they’ve been trying to do, is a good move for the best interests of the company and the convention. Get him to put the shares in escrow, perhaps, including any payments. Something to show that at least he’s not receiving any direct benefit from the company.

    ANY time a (accused or confirmed) criminal of ANY type is found to have connections to a legitimate company, those connections are questioned, and it is to the best interest of that company to distance themselves from said person, if only for PR reasons. It’s CYA, and we can argue if it’s good business or bad, but it’s certainly SAFE business. How many times ave you heard about a company accepting investment money from people deemed unpleasant, and when the company attempts to defend the investment, only serves to make themselves appear complicit?

    This is the kind of story that the 24-hour media would LOVE to chew on were they to find about it on a slow news day. It would fit in line with the historical action line that Comics Are Bad For You. Any reasonable statements and shows of their attempts by the con would be drowned out by the braying of the commentators and the chanting of “The children, THE CHILDREN!!!”

    I’m quite surprised at the vitriol I’m seeing at the very IDEA that it might be a good one to find a way of keeping him from benefiting from the convention. I don’t know the fellow, and I’ve never been to the con, but based on the history of his actions, as they’ve been reported, he does not, to me, behave as one keen to clear his name. He’s had twelve years to try.
    The potential of “guilt by association” is real enough that the con has tried to stop it. I do not see that as a bad idea. If he’s found not guilty, that would change things. But based on his actions, it appears he’d rather not be found at all.

  • Nick Gaston

    Wyvern*Con, maybe?

  • http://twitter.com/nellydreadful Nelly Dreadful

    Dude, it’s a problem, but a comparatively minor and hopefully temporary one. If Dragoncon falls or does badly, it will be replaced. People will go to other cons. The hotel will rent to other patrons. It’ll suck, but it will be a comparatively minor blip of suckiness. And OTHER cons and businesses will enjoy a boost, so it balances out.

    This man ABUSES CHILDREN. He has continued to ABUSE CHILDREN. He has been using funds from the con to support himself while he ABUSES CHILDREN. He has been using funds from the con to escape punishment for ABUSING CHILDREN.

    I am having a hard time going “But think of all that LOST REVENUE!” I mean, seriously, if I go to Subway and the sandwich artisan lets me know that “Oh, by the way, a nickel from the sale of every sandwich goes to a local pedophile’s candy bait fund,” I am not going to go, well, think of the poor sandwich artisan and the manager and the bakers and all the good people employed by Subway. NO. I am WALKING OUT AND GOING TO GODDAMNED QUIZNOS.

    CHILDREN.

    DUDE.

    PERSPECTIVE.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jeffinator Jeff Thompson

    not really legal

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Since gbeenie saw fit to question my motives for speaking out about this subject now and in 2000, I will say this:

    Andrew Vachss warned me that I would be demonized and ostracized for daring to speak out. I didn’t want to believe him, but he
    was right. In the years since I first spoke out against Kramer and DragonCon I have been accused of being an anti-semite a Satanist, and a domestic
    terrorist. I had people I thought were friends and authors I grew up
    admiring turn on me like rabid dogs in an attempt to silence me.

    Ed Kramer spent a great deal of time grooming me and my ex-husband (we’ve been divorced nearly 10 years, and he’s been dead almost 4) in order to gain access to my younger stepsons as well as other family members (all of whom were 10-12 year old boys at the time). Happily, he never got his way–but not for a lack of trying. When he was busted in 2000, I discovered that he had been previously arrested for child molestation in 1996, but had succeeded in keeping it out of the papers so that no one knew about it. Had I known about the 1996 arrest, I would have kicked the man to the curb faster than the speed of light. I was determined not to allow him to slip under the radar again, and made it a point to call attention to the situation. Sorry if I take someone stalking the children in my family personally.

    And as for why I finally chose now to speak up for a boycott? It’s because 1) Kramer has recently been extradited back to Georgia, and 2) one of his victims–now a grown man and an Iraq War vet–posted a letter of defiance against Kramer and those who have enabled him for so long online at ATLANTA MAGAZINE. http://www.atlantamagazine.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1764014

    The thing is–none of this is my problem, despite attempts by others to make it appear so. It is DragonCon’s.It has been from the start. The questions posited to me,as to what DragonCon can and should do to rid itself of Kramer are not mine to answer. They are DragonCon’s. Always have been. Always will be. Whether they see fit to answer remains to be seen.

    And you might be interested in Stephen Bissette’s newest MY RANT–where he reveals that Ed Kramer was invited back as a guest to DragonCon in 2008. So much for the convention not having anything to do with him after his arrest. http://srbissette.com/?p=16675

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Actually, some of the sex abuse alleged in the 2000 & 2003 cases were committed at the convention itself. Which is why DragonCon stands to be sued into limbo by his victims once he’s found guilty, ala Sandusky & Penn State. The writing is on the wall, no matter what.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    I believe Kramer was the one who drew up the articles of incorporation.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Don’t ask him. Don’t ask me. Ask DragonCon.

  • Gregory Williams

    LAWYERS? heard of those people who do LAW THINGS for a living?

  • Gregory Williams

    DragonCon is not about this man or his crimes …. boycotting it would do nothing other than hurt the FANS and VENDORS plus the city of ATLANTA … once the man is convicted the CORPORATION can go to court and ask that his shares be placed in an account to compensate his victims by awarding them the shares equally divided amongst them… the corporation should not have tried to reduce his compensation through under-reporting income…THAT was a crime on their part… the boycott is a stupid petty useless thing to do.

    Just convict him and use his shares to compensate the victims – let them profit from his labor of love in building the convention and it’s stature for the rest of their lives – at about $40,000 a year per victim and growing they will LOVE knowing he will never profit from the convention again PLUS he does have other assets for them to go after to add to the compensation fund.

  • Anonymous

    Are you stupid or did your mother just raise you that way? Things like this are not just plug and play. There’s nothing to indicate that something else would replace DragonCon, and even if something did there’s nothing to say all of those people who lost their jobs would be rehired. If you’re comfortable at night with the thought that you dispossesed all of those people just so you could stick it to the man well you just go living that dream. I on the other hand won’t burn down the forest to get rid of Dutch Elm’s Disease.

  • http://twitter.com/hmax17 Hannah JoAnn

    Not all lawyers are good lawyers. Hes obviously paying for the best which was keeping him from facing the charges.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    1) Subway wouldn’t ever mention it. 2) Subway would be trying to find a means of not paying said person. Who would proudly admit to that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Ah. They’ve been TRYING to extricate themselves while publicly lying about his association and even defending him until 2008. Maybe they should have tried harder.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Oh goody. Hyperbole. If ALL the Cons were giving money to manipulative sociopaths who have been playing the victim card for 13 years as they’ve fucked over the justice system, then yes, we should shut down the Cons. However, only Dragon Con seems to fit that bill.

    Damn, you sound like a Nickelback song.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Really? Those vendors ONLY make a living from Dragon Con? Maybe they should find another profession then.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    You know what people do in an area when a local major convention no longer satisfies them? They START A NEW ONE – usually at another point in the year. There are several holidays that provide three day weekends to choose from. Arisia and CONvergence are two such Cons that came out of the fact that neither Boskone nor MiniCon wanted to be party cons. They were both successful in their first year and they have continued to thrive ever since.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Well maybe ANOTHER GROUP in the same area can start a CON. I would contribute to the Kickstarter campaign. There is obviously a demand for people who want to go to large conventions in Atlanta so meet that demand with a SmaugCon or a NotSpartaCon

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    I bet if those lawyers that are profiting from defending Ed Kramer could be hired, they would think of a legal way to do it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Yeah, wouldn’t want to drag the con through the mud. I mean can you think of the kind of mud that can come from being known as the con that has given money to a pedophile for 13 years after claiming it had “nothing” to do with him?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    The CON may not be able to get rid of Ed Kramer but that doesn’t mean that the arists and attendees have to support the Con while it gives him money.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    It’s like the Catholic church all over again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    If you want to start a new Con at a different time of the year in Atlanta, I will contribute to your kickstarter campaign.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Buying him out would suck but so would paying him every year. Of course, it really doesn’t matter what DragonCOn does at this point since it’s lost its right to complain.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Bullshit. And the anti-DC cottage industry is growing. It took a long time but the major defenders of Ed Kramer have stfu since 2008 and now we got a few holdouts willing to defend Dragon Con as if Dragon Con has nothing to do with Ed Kramer. But Peter David has just had a stroke. So he’ll be shutting up for awhile. I guess sometimes G-d punishes the wicked.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Of course he is. Gbeenie is an Ed Kramer apologist through and through

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Well there’s plenty that DC attendees can do which is to find better conventions like CONvergence and Comic Con.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Hey genius. Argument is bullshit. Dragon Con is NOT too big to fail. There is a demand for a large convention in Atlanta. Start a new one and all those FANS and VENDORS will have a place to go where they can enjoy a con, make money and NOT give it to a pedophile.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Thirteen years of successfully hiding this fact from people. Why take measures to clean up your mess when you can just pretend it doesn’t exist?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    They had 12 years to go through the red tape to get rid of him. They haven’t done it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tim-Lieder/509862261 Tim Lieder

    Well if they can’t force Ed to give up his shares, that’s too bad for them. They also can’t force people to go.

  • http://twitter.com/ichicolco ichicolco

    “He has been using funds from the con to support himself while he ABUSES CHILDREN. He has been using funds from the con to escape punishment for ABUSING CHILDREN.”

    No, he has not being using funds from the con. He’s been using income from stock dividends. He is not using DragonCon funds nor DragonCon budget.

    I own Apple stock. What I buy with the dividends from my stock is not spending Apple funds. I have no direct affiliation with Apple Corporation. I’m a stock holder. What I do in my life has absolutely no impact on the day to day operations of Apple.

    The lack of knowledge of capitalism, corporations, and stock ownership is truly amazing in this thread.

  • http://twitter.com/ichicolco ichicolco

    ” Get him to put the shares in escrow, perhaps, including any payments. Something to show that at least he’s not receiving any direct benefit from the company.”

    Based on what law do you want to force him to give up his shares?

    Why aren’t people screaming for the boycott of the United States for harboring pedophiles? It’s just as illogical as boycotting DragonCon – which has, as stated, done everything it can legally do to remove Kramer from direct involvement. DragonCon can do nothing about ownership of publicly traded stock.

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, but that’s fraud. I’m talking about actually cutting dividends. I’m sure they have the option to set the calculation of profit to be paid out. Could they vote to, say, give more to charitable causes? Or would that call for a 2/3 vote, which they don’t have, because he has 34%.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    When was that? Because they were still allowing a Charity Auction for him as late as 2004, after a 3rd victim (one whose parents were con staff members) came forward in 2003. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StarfleetRegion2/message/4787

  • Nancy A. Collins

    DragonCon rakes in millions in memberships alone. They can afford a Good Lawyer.

  • Anonymous

    “Based on what law do you want to force him to give up his shares?”

    I didn’t mention a law. I said “get him to”, as opposed to “force him to”. If he’s a businessman; he likely grasps that his association with the company runs the risk of devaluing it. By at least separating himself from the money in some way, it helps show that the company does not support his actions, and that money from the company is not, say, indirectly paying for his defense. The goal is to protect the company, which would in turn protect his investment. To not wish to do so is…curious.

    “Why aren’t people screaming for the boycott of the United States for harboring pedophiles?”

    Be…cause…it’s…not? citizenship in a nation and partnership in a business are not the same thing. I don’t see the comparison here. Please clarify?

    “DragonCon can do nothing about ownership of publicly traded stock.”

    Is it publicly traded? I was under the (mistaken?) impression the only people who owned shares were the founders and/or board members. If it’s publicly traded, then yes, this whole discussion is moot.

    But he’s one of the founders, according other people in this thread, he wrote up the incorporation papers, and is apparently a lot more than a simple stockholder.

    I have to go back to the statement I’ve made earlier and elsewhere in the thread – I don’t get what your point of contention is, exactly. You don’t seem to be defending Ed’s accused actions, more just arguing that he has the right to own shares in whatever he pleases. A fair point, if indeed the stock is publicly traded.
    You seem to be against the idea that the company would want to protect itself from scandal or bad PR from a person with a close financial connection to the company. I am unsure why.

  • Anonymous

    In fairness, the comparison to Penn State may not apply, or at least not to the same degree. They’d have to show that the staff knew the abuse was happening, and made no attempt to bring it to any authority’s knowledge. I’ve heard no allegations that’s the case.
    Right now, the issue as you’ve presented it is with the company not making sufficient effort to sever ties with Kramer, not of any complicity in his actions, no?

  • http://twitter.com/ichicolco ichicolco

    i simply can’t understand why dragoncon has the stigma for a person who’s no longer involved. that’s irrational. boycott the catholic church. it actively shelters pedophile priests. dragoncon is not actively supporting kramer. dragoncon has *ZERO* control over who owns publicly traded stock. there’s *NO* way to force a shareholder to give up their stock.

  • http://twitter.com/ichicolco ichicolco

    why, nancy. why should i ask dragoncon? dragoncon has done what it can do to distance itself from kramer. i’m asking you as a supporter of the boycott. what do you want dragoncon to do at this point?

    it’s fine to call for a boycott of a company when an executive is evil. but if the company has kicked out the evil executive, what else can they do? they’ve cleaned house.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Neville-Ross/100002343524258 Neville Ross

    The best thing that people can do about situations like this? Go to non-profit fan-run (remember those?) convention instead of ones like these!

    The only problem with that? Most of the fan-run conventions are gone or are going to be gone thanks to people going to big corporate behemoths like these (this local con in Toronto being one of the victims-it used to be held in July, now it’s going to be held in November;the only good thing about it its that it will be held at the beginning of the month instead of in the middle.) Fan-run conventions have an easier set up, and no one person can take over the con committee and do nefarious things like what this guy did (IIRC).

    Unfortunately, people are lemmings, and will go to this event even though it’s been tainted by being associated with this man, thus proving that people are sheeple.

  • Carmen Sandiego

    This would be great. Is it legally feasible?

  • http://twitter.com/Loerwyn Kathryn

    A paedophile is a specific kind of child molester. If he’s praying on teenage boys, he’s not a paedophile. I’m certainly not defending his behaviour, but it’s a minor but fairly important distinction to make.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    DragonCon needs to publicly answer questions put to it about this matter–and not with a blanket “no comment” or “we’re working on it”. They need to publicly state what they’re doing to correct this problem, especially n light of the fact they have, over the years. repeatedly assured the professionals who lend their good names to their business to bring in fans and attendees each year, that Kramer was not involved with the con in any way–including financially. And if you can’t understand that, then, well, there’s nothing I can say that will explain it to you.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Sexual abuse was alleged to have occurred at the convention itself with multiple victims. If he is still an owner in the convention, the victims can sue on those grounds alone.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    From what I’ve personally seen of his behavior in the past, Kramer’s “age of attraction” is between 10-14, and especially those boys who look considerably younger. By the time they’re 15 he’s no longer interested in them.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    He’s up to his ears in creditors, including a raft of former attorneys he neglected to pay. Whatever buy out he would get wouldn’t be his for long.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    I wouldn’t say it’s stupid or useless. It’s educated a huge number of people as to what’s actually going on with the convention and where their money is going.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Everyone seems to be under the assumption that Kramer is an actual businessman open to reason as opposed to a criminal sociopath. He doesn’t give a shit about DragonCon other than a cash cow and a means to lure little boys. Do you remember the scene in TITANIC, after it sank, where a man was desperately clambering atop other people in the water to keep from drowning? That’s Kramer. And he’ll happily DragonCon if it will keep him out of court for another week.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    It’s NOT a publicly traded company. There are only 7 owners. He and Pat Henry (now) own equal shares–34% each. The rest is split between the other original founders. And DragonCon gets the stink on it from the fact Kramer has been receiving (at least) $150K+ @ year the entire time, even after assuring professionals who attend the convention as guests that Kramer had nothing more to do with DC–including profiting from it. If you can’t understand why people would take issue with that, I can’t explain any of this to you.

  • http://twitter.com/LauraTruxillo Laura Truxillo

    Yeah. Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m going to do. With no experience or network or even the slightest idea how to do this, working a full time and a freelance job, I’m gonna rig up a big, massive con in a city that’s literally 1000 miles away from me.

    Have you seen baby cons? They’re fun, but there’s such a thing as momentum. “Start up a new con in Atlanta” is a stupid idea, for so many reasons. Boycotting a con is one thing. But the “I’m gonna make my own con…with blackjack…and hookers” attitude is less than helpful. Hell, patronize another con and hope the same kinda magic springs up, but thinking you can catch lightning in a bottle because you really really want to is silly.

  • http://twitter.com/LauraTruxillo Laura Truxillo

    Comic Con and Dragon*Con aren’t even remotely the same thing.

  • http://twitter.com/Loerwyn Kathryn

    That’s not the behaviour of a paedophile, as they – typically – prey on pre-pubescent children.

    This would seem to be a more accurate description of the category in which he’d fit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    When you’re out eating with friends/family/SO’s, do you talk about how the meal you just ate is upsetting your intestines so much makes you wish you could crap it out immediately?

    No, because socially speaking that’s offensive and impolite. Despite the fact that everyone has to go to the bathroom from time to time, and sometimes food causes bad gut feelings through no fault of our own , and because there’s no way we could have determined how our body was going to react to an undetectable parasite…you still try to keep your composure at the dinner table until you can privately handle the situation.

    The challenge D*C faces is that they’ve tried to handle the issue quietly but can’t get up from the dinner table without alerting everyone in the restaurant that they’ve got digestive distress, and even though it’s not their fault, they’re still the one perceived as “nasty” or “disgusting” for unknowingly being the host to this parasite. It’s not fair, but that’s how the public behaves with regards to these issues.

    Now imagine you may end up having to pay the parasite off just to avoid having an accident in the middle of the restaurant.

  • http://twitter.com/bigheadzach Zach Gaskins

    I will agree with this, definitely. Once the profits from a con stop going towards “making the con bigger and better” and start being a way to get rich, the thing that suffers is the concern for the individual con-goer.

  • HassleinBooks

    I fully support you and Steve on this, Nancy. DragonCon, in inviting Kramer as a guest in 2008, was supporting a person facing child-molestation charges, and that’s simply unacceptable. And anyone who has been harassing you as a result is an asshole.

  • HassleinBooks

    The con apparently invited Kramer as a guest in 2008, which means they’ve not been trying to get rid of him.

  • HassleinBooks

    Children.

    Innocent children.

    Perspective.

  • HassleinBooks

    It’s not stupid, petty or useless at all–it’s holding a convention accountable for supporting an alleged child molester. And before anyone says that’s not what it’s doing, remember: It invited Kramer as a guest in 2008. Hence, it’s supporting him.

  • http://twitter.com/ironduck Addie/Annie D

    Why don’t the people behind Dragon Con (setting it up/publicity) quit that company and start a new convention? He can’t earn money if no one is there to work for him.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Actually, buying him out, would net him money. Forcing the con to shut and liquidate all assets, while it will deny him an ongoing income stream, it will net him a hell of a lot of money here and now. (When tiy disband a corporation, all assets and accounts get liquidated – and disbursed to the shareholders. He’d get 30%).

    He’s already been forced once to sell some of his shares in DC to pay legal bills. He will likely be forced to do that again, if the legal system gets on the ball and gets him to trial. (Yes. I’m more annoyed/upset with the legal system, and the police in GA and NY, than I am with DragonCon.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    It’s not simple. It would take from 2-5 years in my estimation. And then they could be sued if Kramer could prove they did it at least in part to limit/end his income stream.

    And it would give him a lump sum of 30% of all DragonCon’s assets and bank accounts, upon liquidation.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Where’s the outrage vs the legal system, the police and the DA? He’s gamed the system with medical and other issues. This should not have gone on this long.

    And they did not ‘give money to a pedophile’. They paid their shareholder dividends. Which they legally have to do. Pay dividends to investors.

    I’m with ichocolo. There is a fundamental lack of knowledge about shares, shareholders, investments and the like in these threads.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    I wonder… do you check into the shareholders of every corporation you have any dealings with to know where the money goes? You’d be surprised.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Grumble.

    One of the things that also really annoys me in this is that GA is a backward enough states to NOT have their in state lawsuit records accessible online.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Your $ a year is incorrect. the 154K figure was a settlement in 2011. Since GA doesn’t have their lawsuits online, We don’t know how much was dividends, how much for what year, and how much of that 154 went directly to lawyers.

    We don’t know how much he gets in dividends every year. Of course, looking at Henry’s lifestyle might give one a clue, if you know the man, given he gets the same amount. (34%)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Or of privately…

    Dragon con is a private corporation, and therefore private stock. The stock is not traded publicaly.

    But the concept is the same. He put up the collateral 26 years ago, and was given stock in the private for profit corporation. It was an investment.

    And to VBartilucci— he has the right to own shares or have a stake in a private for profit corporation if he chooses, as well.

    We don’t know a lot of things. Like how the corporate papers were filled out and what’s in them. I think it doubtful that there’s a morals clause though.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    The company would want to protect itself yes. But it can only do so by legal means. Forcing the man to sell shares is not legal.

    You seem to think that there’s something they can do to escape or avoid this bad PR. We know they’ve offered to buy him out, and he won’t sell.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    Yup. Assuming that someone is and will be ‘rational’ and/or will think in the long term even for his own benefit… gets you into trouble a good percentage of the time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=579802102 Wrenn Simms

    So has the legal system. It’s been failing too.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    Since when is 10 post-pubescent?

  • Nancy A. Collins

    You have no more concrete clue as to what Kramer has and hasn’t been receiving from DragonCon than I do. I just have to go with what a reporter who read the civil case filing has written about it. Everything you have stated is pure assumption on your part. That is because DragonCon has refused to come clean and discuss the situation. There is 0% transparency on their part. And as to their claim they can’t discuss their relationship to Kramer due to the lawsuit, my response is: “How convenient.”

  • http://twitter.com/Loerwyn Kathryn

    If you check the definition of that condition, and compare it to other events he’s been… involved in, then it’s clear his victims have been in that 10-14(ish) age range, which for the most part would put him mostly in the hebephillic group, which is characterised by interest (if you could call it such) in early-to-mid pubescent children, which 10-14 certainly covers.

    Either way, it’s pretty dang disgusting.

  • Nancy A. Collins

    I’ve seen these boys (back when they were boys). The oldest of them looked considerably younger than 14. None of them looked like all-but-grown teenagers, by a long shot. And the courts consider anything under 12 pedophilia, regardless of what the medical text books say.

  • http://www.seanpaune.com Sean P. Aune

    I am a vendor, and my company has not attended Dragon*Con for the reason of Kramer being associated with them. I am missing out on an opportunity to earn that weekend as other cons avoid scheduling for that time period, but I am fine with this as I refuse to in turn support a con that would associate with someone of this nature.

    You are 100 percent on the right side of this, Ms. Collins.

  • Jeffery Malone

    To be consistent we should boycott every corporation that has accused Child Molesters as stockholders. Corporations both public and private should publish the names of every accused Child Molester that has stock in their company. If the judicial systems fails us we should use any means available to make sure these people never get a dime.

  • Null

    What if he’s innocent?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000274960653 Crazeyal Dah Debil

    That is a lie. Where is your proof?

  • Anonymous

    Unless and until he is convicted there is nothing that can be done to deprive him of his stock. Getting pissed off at Dragon Con because the an accused child molester owns stock in the company is a lot like getting pissed off at Motown because Michael Jackson’s music was still profitable while he was under suspicion.

  • bob

    For one, it’s no secret that Nancy Collins has had a personal grudge against Kramer since before 2000. Also, if you’re going to boycott Dragon Con because Kramer receives owed dividends from his share, you might as well boycott any company that has at least one felon as a stockholder. I’m not defending Kramer. Just saying the reasoning behind calling for this boycott is illogical and prejudiced.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=737336476 Jerry Chandler

    Many of us have perspective.

    What was done was vile and disgusting, but it was done years ago and cannot be undone by anything anyone does now. The only thing that can be done now is take the most effective actions to target Kramer. Unfortunately, the Dragon*Con boycott brigade don’t seem to want to do that.

    Targeting Dragon*Con is foolish. They’ve been doing what they can to separate themselves from Kramer for years now. They tried buying him out, but Kramer would only go along with that but so far. You can’t buyout someone who won’t sell. They started taking other steps, but Kramer initiated legal action against them that is pending to this day. And that creates another problem for them.

    The popular talking point from the boycott supporters, showing both basic business ignorance and ignorance of the law, is that Dragon*Con “knows what it needs to do” and could simply do it, it being things like dissolving and reforming without Kramer, as quickly and easily as snapping their fingers. They can’t.

    Beyond all that matters that are purely of a business nature, there’s also the little matter of Georgia law. Kramer has active litigation pending against them. It’s illegal for them to dissolve or take any other such actions. They CANNOT do any of the things that so many behind the boycott talk say they should do.

    Nancy A. Collins likes pop up in forums where this is addressed and mindlessly repeat her idiotic line about Dragon*Con raking in tons of money and being able to hire lawyers. It’s idiotic for multiple reasons. First, they have obviously already hired lawyers since, again, they’re dealing with legal action that’s been brought against them by Kramer. So telling them to use their money to hire lawyers looks a bit, well, dense. The bigger reason why her statement comes off as idiotic though is that she apparently has no clue how the real world works.

    If you hire lawyers, one of the things they will not tell you to do is openly and flagrantly break the law. Beyond just the basic common sense element of that, there’s a practical one relating to this matter. If Dragon*Con attempted to do anything like dissolving and reforming or changing their business structure to force Kramer out completely, Kramer and his lawyers would be dancing like a four year old kid on Christmas morning. They would be able to take Dragon*Con to the cleaners and the result would likely be Kramer getting more money out of the deal than he would otherwise would get.

    Dragon*Con has been doing what it can. A boycott against Dragon*Con only hurts everyone but Kramer. A more intelligent course of action, for anyone actually targeting Kramer and Dragon*Con, is to put very public pressure on the DA and the legal system down there. They have made missteps and foolish blunders from day one and have handled aspects of this case in a spectacularly moronic fashion. If there is anyone in this equation allowing this to drag on and allowing Kramer to still be free to do what he wants, up until just recently that is, it’s the legal system down there.

    That’s where intelligent people would focus their attention and what they would try to focus a public spotlight on. It’s become abundantly clear from her words and actions though that Nancy more interested in hurting Dragon*Con and, by extension, tens of thousands of people, including everyone from business owners, employees of local Atlanta businesses and the fans themselves, than she is actually targeting Kramer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=737336476 Jerry Chandler

    They have good lawyers, Nancy. The thing is, good lawyers are going to tell them to not break the law. I mean, sure, they can break the law if they so choose. And the results would be Kramer and his lawyers getting the payday of a lifetime and probably the absolute destruction of Dragon*Con.

    But then, it’s been more and more obvious of late that that’s your goal and not actually seeing justice done in the Kramer case.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=737336476 Jerry Chandler

    See, this is where the boycott brigade talking points tend to contradict each other.

    Apparently Dragon*Con needs to be boycotted because, among other reasons, it’s paying Kramer a small fortune each year and that money is allowing him to pay for lawyers to keep him out of jail and fund his lifestyle. Yet, when it’s pointed out that Dragon*Con throwing down a small fortune that would dwarf the sum of money he’s getting from his share in it or, even better, break the law themselves by dissolving and end up making Kramer rich via his ongoing litigation with them and the settlement in his favor that would make his annual share payment look like chump change; the answer is that such a giant payout is meaningless because his massive debt to creditors, to the lawyers he hasn’t paid and to others would burn through it it nothing flat.

    So what would be a massive payout or settlement in the large seven figure range, maybe even the very large seven figure to eight figure range, would evaporate in nothing flat due to debt he owes, but the much, much smaller annual dividend he earns with what share he still owns pays for his legal fees, lawyers and lifestyle? Yeah…

    Dear Boycotters,

    It can’t be both. Pick one and stick with it. Thank you.

  • Lizzy W

    Hypocrisy. Boycott Con because everyone who loves Con is to blame for funding a pedophile. If we blamed everyone involved with one persons actions, 90% of Hollywood would be behind bars, guilty by association. The fact that Mike Tyson is glorified in Hangover movies (Mel Gibson too controversial), Charlie Sheen (raking in dough) another abuser who got richer because of the media got his own show again, Chris Brown for crying out loud…. See a pattern? I’m not saying Kramer isn’t a sack of S*** but certain creators/actors/etc who choose to campaign for DragonCon’s ruin without considering legal ramifications and such for the innocents caught up in this is BS. When Kramer is finally booted, don’t worry, I highly doubt Con will want you as a guest. At least a good deal of guests apologize to the good people for cancelling or not coming, explaining why they can’t, because Kramer still gets a cut (unfortunate), to that Con understands, it’s people being reasonable.

    As for starting a NEW Con… Clearly those suggesting this either have no idea how much time (we’re talking YEARS) it takes to get back to DC calibre, or they are associated with a smaller Con that’s itching to see DC no longer have the premo ATL weekend with 5 awesome hotels, so they can try and steal DC’s hard earned thunder. How’s that for going to the other extreme?

    Here’s how it works folks… While in litigation, you CANNOT do a darn thing, because of Innocent until PROVEN Guilty. DC didn’t ask for this, and as for the 2008 invitation everyone keeps talking about, are you so certain it was an invitation and not Kramer exercising his DC clout?

    I ask this… arrested in 2000, placed under house arrest, was allowed to travel for
    “illnesses in the family,” why would he be allowed to be at Con? Now i’m not giving facts, just pointing out what keeps getting mentioned here, repeatedly. Why would Con be somewhere he’d HAVE to be able to go? If he’s to ill to stand trial, he’s too ill to be at Con or travel out of state. This is not a DC failure, they are not harboring him, they are not intentionally funding him because they support him. THE JUSTICE SYSTEM screwed the pooch, not DC. You have someone on child molestation and you let them travel out of state but not stand trial?

    And a FACT: DC, from top to bottom, anyone who works/volunteers, they have wanted him gone FOR A LONG TIME. Legally they can’t do jack because since his arrest in 2000, and the justice systems failure to try him, counts as litigation, DC cannot give him the boot, they cannot start a new Con because like others have mentioned, they’d be sued by him. New Con, new name? Better be a Con about anything but SciFi, Fantasy, Fiction, Comics… etc because Kramer could sue the pants off them, all because dissolving DC and starting over with a new name, in the same city, with a lot of the DC people (the bystanders), will have his lawyers grinning from ear to ear. You see the longer this goes on, the richer the LAWYERS get. Do you understand the problem? Clearly not. You just want DC’s and all it’s loyal staff and volunteers to forfeit their livelihoods, something they love, because of one super sicko.

    I’m exhausted with ignorant people and hypocrits. Everything is not so black and white.

    And one more Time: BLAME THE JUSTICE SYSTEM, they decided he couldn’t stand trial, they said sure, leave the state, they took so long to extradite him. They are allowing him to sue his partners for more money and don’t see that as him being FIT to stand trial for a REAL crime.

    Stop focusing on DC and focus on the monster, he’s harmed innocent children (allegedly, since he hasn’t been found guilty, thanks legal system, just like James Holmes the moment you lawyer up you become alleged). Does that help you understand the super TIGHT spot DC is in? Legally they can’t do anything at the moment.

  • Lizzy W

    Food for Thought:
    Everyone calling for a DragonCon Boycott… have you purchased anything related to Michael Jackson since the first time he was brought up on Child Molestation charges?
    How long was Kramer in Connecticut before he finally got brought back to GA? Was he there in 2008 when he was “invited as a guest?” to attend Con? Ever think, just maybe that invitation was to lure him back to GA?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=737336476 Jerry Chandler

    I’d not disagree with most of what you said, but I would disagree with the idea that he was “invited” to lure him back to Georgia.

    For one thing, he was in Georgia for most of 2008.He was actually under house arrest through a chunk of 2008 until a judge ruled he could travel under strict supervisory rules.

    The other reason is that he wasn’t invited. Some people, my pack-rat self included, still have some of their Dragon*Con materials from that year. He’s not listed as a guest in any printed materials. There’s also no evidence anywhere of Kramer being a guest on any panel, trak or event that year. Further, there are no photographs of Kramer, as an invited guest would be seen doing, speaking before an audience, giving autographs at an autograph table, talking to a trak, MC-ing an event or holding court before a room full of fans. You know, the stuff that invited guest of the con actually do. The people running the convention have also disputed this claim and said that he was not invited as a guest.

    The claim that he was invited comes from someone on a forum somewhere giving Collins and Bissette a link to a page on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine where you can find Kramer as a guest in August of 2008. His name was apparently there for a whole three days. Some people who work with computers and websites have suggested, based on the old website that Dragon*Con was using, that it was most likely a glitch and an old listing was bounced into “active” while changes and updates were being made that year.

    Nancy’s big argument as to why that’s just not possible is that the listing cites him as the former chairman of the con and thus it had to be a new listing in 2008. Thing is, as she is with some of her other claims on the subject, she’s flat out, 110% wrong on that.

    Here’s a link to the Internet Archive Wayback Machine showing the “Past Guests” page on their website in May 13, 2006. The listing that she cites from the 2008 page is, word for word and absolutely identical, there in 2006.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060513084803/http://www.dragoncon.org/dc_past_guests.php

    Guess it wasn’t so new in 2008 after all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=776853135 Dan Benge

    The biggest problem you will have with getting people to boycott is an emotional one. I’ve attended DragonCon for the last eight years. Its where you meet up and hang out with friends. Game with friends. Go to panels with friends. Attend parties. Some of us have made friends from other states and countries and reunite every year at DragonCon. I know that I met six new Facebook friends last year simply waiting in line. In other words, there are a lot of great memories tied to that con for a lot of people. Try telling them to throw that all away. There is also the annual blood drive, free immunizations and other charitable work that goes on every year. What if one life was saved because of any of that? Is that worth trying to keep the accused from making money on his stock which is a legal issue to begin with?

    I understand the issue and I understand the knee-jerk reason for the boycott. Unfortunately its the law that is the problem. Not the show-runners. It’s not the fans who support the convention or the celebrities. They are not at fault for the sexual abuse. Closing DragonCon is, pardon the expression, cutting off the nose to spite the face.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Neville-Ross/100002343524258 Neville Ross

    MJ NEVER molested any child, Kramer DEFINITELY has molested kids. Please stop believing bullcrap.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Neville-Ross/100002343524258 Neville Ross

    Convention committee.

    CANNOT do what you want them to, legally.

    Common sense.

  • http://twitter.com/Mesoian Mesoian

    And again, the biggest problem with this is that Dragon*Con is MONSTROUSLY big now. I found about this story last week, and if making plans to go to Dragon*Con at this time of the year was feasable, I would probably skip it and go somewhere else. But my badge, my hotel room and my airfare, due to the fever of the weekend are all non-refundable. I couldn’t get that money back if I wanted to. So either go and have a good time and make a forward decision for the future about attending if he’s profiting or let near 1000 dollars go to waste on principle and he still profits. A story better told before/as Hotels are offering up rooms.