Military Women and Men Share Bathrooms In Submarine, World Doesn’t End

Awesome and encouraging. I hope other armed forces can take this and run with it as well.

Do a group of men act the same when it is all men than when there is a woman around.  No.  That alone disproves the notion this isn’t disruptive.

This is about a job, not a return to high school.

This is so obvious it even shows through on this picture you chose. You wouldn’t see the same expression on the guy’s face if the other one was a guy.

Funny, doesn’t this site promote things like all-female organizations and gender-segregated schools (where it is proven there is more performance?)

But does acting differently disrupt their jobs?  If it’s about a job, and not just being unable to tell penis jokes, then make your comment about the job.  Men work just fine alongside women in hundreds of other jobs.  ”Acting differently” has nothing to do with their work performance.

In my experience, men behave more professionally and competently when women are around.  Rather than being a disruption, as you describe, it actually prevents disruptions that might otherwise occur.

Belittling women and acting like macho jerks is not a team building exercise, nor does it contribute to improved performance.  The only people that have problems working with women are the people that would have been causing the distributions in the first place.  

That little bit of panic that you are likely feeling in reading this article is probably a symptom of privilege threat. It’ll be okay.

 Men and women already serve alongside one another on surface ships, without any obvious negative effects. I don’t see why submarines should really be any different just because they’re underwater.

Unless you can actually *prove* that having women around noticeably affects ‘performance’, all you have is your own prejudiced assumptions. For all you know, it could be that mixed-sex crews even perform better.

“Performance is taking a back seat to a political agenda.”

I’m not sure you fully understand what the situation is. There was a ban on women in subs. THAT was performance taking a back seat to a political agenda. This story is about the removal of that ban and the confirmation that the reasons for the ban were stupid to begin with.

I’ve worked on several boats (civilian, not military) where women and men share living/bathroom quarters. It’s a thing you think about for maybe a day and then you get over it. My college had mixed-gender bathrooms, too, and it really wasn’t a big deal at all. I think people get more worked up about the idea of bathroom issues then is necessary in practice.

It’s really a pity that you have such a low view of men that you think they can’t work effectively around women. Men aren’t mindless animals, silly. Men are more than capable of working with females. 

Heh.  I did the naval flight officer thing back in the nineties, actually was on the very last “stag cruise”.  I still remember the wild-eyed worries about women coming on board, including some “are you serious?” speculation about things like synched menstrual cycles.  One of the complaints was about the heads (bathrooms for you non-Navy types).  Considering we had separate heads for enlisted and officers, you think that the solution would be obvious. 

Believe it or not, boys and girls can work alongside each other.  Will there be fraternization?  Oh, sure–  although I suspect it would be harder to get away with on a submarine.  But guess what?  There’s always discipline issues.  The real question is whether the leadership is willing to step up to the plate and come down on that sort of thing. 

As previous posters have pointed out, surface ships have been sailing around with mixed crews for a couple of decades now.  And no, none of them have sunk due to an excess of feminine hygiene products clogging the pipes (an apparently serious concern an otherwise sensible warrant officer expressed to me back in ’94)

 ”There’s always discipline issues.”

Adding more problems is ok, then?  That makes no sense.

It isn’t about discipline – when men and women work together, there is distraction because they, mostly men, compete for attention of the girls.  Men are trying to impress the women rather than doing their job.  They hesistate. Instead of the mission, they are looking after the women.  It gets people killed.

May as well do away with boot camp, then.  The whole purpose of that is to get people working with their comrades as a unit.  Boot camp vs night at the bar.  Totally different.

“As previous posters have pointed out, surface ships have been sailing around with mixed crews for a couple of decades now. ”

How many pregnancies on air craft carriers after that took place?  How many before?

 Bathrooms are not the issue.  They never were.  They are a straw-man argument.

 It isn’t a low view of men.  It is seeing reality for what it is.

Get over it.

 ”without any obvious negative effects.”

You just throw that little false statement in there to come up with the false conclusion you want to lead people to. 

“Pregnancies, Romances Trouble Aircraft Carrier’s 6-month Cruise”

Problem since the very beginning:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-03-19/news/9503190079_1_crew-members-kevin-wensing-demotions-and-fines

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-06-17/us/27149003_1_pregnancy-lynndie-england-naked-iraqi-prisoner

 Yes, see above.  From the very beginning. 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-03-19/news/9503190079_1_crew-members-kevin-wensing-demotions-and-fines

“Adding more problems is ok, then?  That makes no sense.”

It’s called leadership.  Problems only spiral out of control if they’re allowed to.  If it’s not boy-girl interactions, it’ll be something else.  Trust me, been there, done that, taken the boys to Captain’s Mast enough times. 

But truthfully, that’s generally the “ten percent who cause ninety percent of the problems”.  The vast majority of men and women in uniforms are professionals.  Acting as if the male service members are a bunch of virginal 12 year old boys who fall into fits of giggling whenever they see a woman in the workplace is an insult to them as much as it is to the women.

Stop feeding the troll; especially when he posts articles from 1995. 

You claim that in the photo used ”
You wouldn’t see the same expression on the guy’s face if the other one was a guy.”

Duuuuude. You’ve got issues if you’ve never seen another man talk to another man. 

If anything coed bathrooms means that there’s more privacy. My dad (now retired) remembers a time when you could chat the guy next to you on the toilet.

 I went to boot camp in Orlando in the early 90s in an integrated company (half male and half female) (disclosure – I’m female).  We shared everything but sleeping spaces – so yeah, we time-shared the bathrooms (toilet stalls had NO DOORS!!!).  Boot camp stress on top of all the hormones flying around was an interesting experience.  But we had an awesome company commander who ran a tight ship, and it worked out pretty well.  Believe me, the biggest problem in boot camp isn’t the gender gap – it’s the stupidity gap.  It’s amazing how many people can’t just shut up and do what they’re told, to save themselves or their shipmates trouble. 

I was the yeoman for my company (a high-ranking recruit staff position – recruit E-6) so I had some chiefs ask me towards the end of boot camp what I thought of the integrated experience.  I said I thought it was a good idea, because a lot of the young guys clearly were not accustomed to dealing with women in authority positions and boot camp was a good place to start learning about that.  The Navy stopped running integrated companies shortly after that, though, so I guess the fuss involved in dealing with integrated companies was too much for the company commanders.  Ah well. 

If anyone cares to read about some of my experiences in the Navy, including boot camp, feel free to pop over to my blog:  divinemind.biz/blog. 

 Agreed.  Unless the environment is toxic to begin with, having women around tends to clean things up a bit and ops just tend to run smoother as well.  Heard this from some guys.  :)  It just makes sense – humans have a long history of integrated operations.  Both genders like to have people of the opposite sex around. 

 He showed rather well how this was a problem right from the beginning.  HOW many pregnancies in just 6 months?  Geez!

 The leadership we had before prevented problems instead of causing them. 

“If it’s not boy-girl interactions, it’ll be something else.”

So the boy-girl problems mean all the other problems go away?  Or does it ADD to them?  It adds to them.

Further, since women are held to a lower standard it creates problems.  In the 90′s when they started with Affirmative Action women naval aviators one crashed.  Naturally, the media focuses on sympathy and largely ignored that she had made multiple mistakes that would have grounded any male pilot LONG ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Hultgreen

It’s bizarre that you assume his expression has anything to do with her gender.  You , apparently saw some flirting.

I see two friends sharing a laugh.  

2004 and 1995……
Your most recent “example” is 8 years old. Seriously. THIS is the damning evidence you’ve been waiting to pop forward?

Egads!  8 years ago someone got pregnant, we should really stop what’s going on in 2012!

As a gay man, I’ve been around probably thousands of naked or partially naked men in locker rooms for the past 3 decades. I’m not the only one, either.

I’m perfectly capable of keeping my hands to myself.

We’re perfectly capable of seeing an attractive man and not turning into a pile of hormones.

It’s called professionalism. It’s called maturity. It’s called respect and common decency.

The onus isn’t on women to not be there to oggle. The onus is on me to grow up.

 Looks more like hand holding to get in to her pants later, he hopes.

Same game as the “teaching them to shoot pool” or bowl on a date.  But this is a JOB.

Meanwhile, someone else who has their eye on her is getting jealous because he is making time with her.

This is just bad.

 As a gay man you don’t understand the issue.

And as I read the article – right from the beginning there was an explosion of pregnancies.

And there were zero before.

LOGIC disproves this emotion-based support of women here.  IF it doesn’t cause a problem……then why is fraternisation AGAINST THE UCMJ, hmmmmmmm?  Obviously it IS a problem.  So, why would making the problem larger by encouraging it be a positive thing?

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/fraternization.-ukn.htm

Caption of picture: “soooo, do you want to mess around in the mess hall”?

Wow. That is shocking stuff. You are really on the cutting edge of the adjustment troubles people are having… 17 years ago? Huh.

I work as an educator in an elementary school and the staff is about 1/3 male (which is high for elementary ed) and we share a staff bathroom. It’s generally not a big deal.

It’s okay, guys. SEN just can’t imagine what it’s like to talk to a woman like a person, and he’s projecting that on the rest of society.

No, he showed how there were some adjustment difficulties almost two decades ago.

It is quite telling that you don’t think it is a big deal that men are so discriminated against that they are not half the staff.

So, no cases of pregnancies and fraternization today, right?

 No, you can’t tell when men are working on a woman – woe be to you – your wife may be straying right under your nose.

Here is a picture of one person teaching another to shoot pool.  Completely professional.  The guy isn’t expecting anything at all….

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_543/1285758335uF1oWS.jpg

Everyone, please stop responding to the trolls.

Hot bunking was and still is one of the more demeaning practices in the submarine world.  If two people are willing to share the same bunk, coed crews may alleviate the negative impact of hot bunking, or give new meaning to the term.  And as for the folks responsible for designing submarines with too few bunks, shame on you.

Wow, so the US military finally pulled their heads out of their asses on this one, huh? About time. I mean, really, do you make your houseguests separate off into gender-segregated bathrooms? Egads, what if you only have one? The horror! When I did basic, in the field there was no segregation, we all slept in the same area and went to the same bathroom and used the same showers. We figured out how to manage it, on our own, no fuss. I really wasn’t that hard.

Oh, and can we block the troll now? I feel like someone left a Rush Limbaugh broadcast on repeat or something.

 More intolerance from the Left.

 Who are the trolls?  Those who show your counter-cultural POV to be wrong?

Are you people going to lambaste the women who have the archaic notion of gender segregation when it comes to gyms?

http://www.thejanedough.com/gym-for-plus-size-women/

If this is a problem for a half-hour workout where you can leave, wouldn’t it follow that being trapped for 6 months underwater would be even more of a problem?

Perhaps the one who replied to my comment assuming I was talking about him and has an email address that starts with “whitemansburden?” If you continue along these lines, you will be banned. That’s your warning.

“Men are trying to impress the women rather than doing their job.  They hesistate. Instead of the mission, they are looking after the women.  It gets people killed.”
You know, it’s completely ridiculous how little faith we have in the soldiers in our military to be able to be respectful and maintain self-control. This is the most stupid and pointless argument. 

And what the hell does it matter about pregnancies? What is the difference between pregnancies on water and pregnancies on land? With that argument, you see, to be saying that women can’t be in the military at all, and also making it appear that people can’t handle themselves at all. 

Whoops, sorry, hadn’t gotten to the bottom of the thread. I got trolled. :(

Pregnancy is ahuge issue on board a submarine.  A woman, no matter how pregnant cannot serve in any capacity on board a US Navy submarine due to the rules regarding nuclear radiation and the unborn fetus.  Where this causes issues is what we in the Navy call an unplanned loss.  We lose the body for 46 weeks that once supported a barely 3 section watchbill. Please tell me how you would feel if you had to stand (literally STAND) 6 hours of watch followed by 6 hours off (which also may include training or drills) continuously for 3-6 months straight due to that loss of a valuable member of the crew.

I also entered bootcamp in Orlando in 1992. There were a couple of times I was taking a dump and a woman walked by the open stall and I walked by when a woman was takin one as well, I learned quick – women are just like me, human and stink like I do. Although the heads were not meant to have both sexes in there at the same time – it nevertheless happened on occassion and no one fussed. I enjoyed the learning experience anyhow.