New Theory: Women Menstruate To Protect Ourselves From Babies

Quote: Not only is it hard to find a theory that explains why just a few mammals find it more evolutionarily advantageous to menstruate
Answer: Actually the author missed at least one explanation. The release of iron rich blood to lower the iron levels for the safe gestation of an egg. The Herbivore Hypothesis. The hypothesis states man is a herbivore but when they eat meat the iron levels in the body rise higher and higher , compared to a vegetarian non-meat eater. They have shown the iron in meat is absorbed at a very high rate compared to plant foods and this leads to a form of iron poisoning / age-related iron accumulation. Women begin to have a higher disease rates when they hit menopause BECAUSE of their lack of menses / lack of iron removal.

ha. decorating the uterine walls. haha.

It certainly seems like a great argument to support the safety of birth
control options that actually eliminate menstruation to me.

Do you mean permanently???  Cos Depo, or not taking the placebos in any pill-type bc ceases menstruation in most folks, I think?  Only two ever options I’ve taken.  If a doctor insisted I start having periods again, I’d give him or her a steely look before walking straight out of the office.

Also re: homo sapiens being herbivores, pretty sure this isn’t supported by any data.  From what I remember from Anthro 101, the previous hominids that were herbivores were scary looking folks since they’d developed skulls with some extra bone on the sides above and behind the ears to allow for an extremely strong jaw musculature to be connected there.  This was needed to crack nuts and the like on a regular basis.

Yes, but I think you would be pretty hard pressed to prove that human beings are herbivores. Our biology and cultural history points towards omnivorism.

Alternate title for this post: “Science Proves that Fetuses are Dicks.”

The human body does not have a dedicated process for getting rid of excess iron (and this includes menses).  Up until recently in human history, humans have not had a need to dispose of excess iron in the body, because parasites (which have a considerable appetite for iron) were ubiquitous and the body had to establish some very efficient mechanisms for retaining iron and maintaining adequate levels of iron in the bloodstream.  (In fact, it is believed that anemia is an evolutionary adaption that was an attempt to deny iron to parasites.)  Humans needed a meat-rich diet to maintain *adequate* levels of iron.  Menses under these conditions would have been a disadvantage.  It is only recently, with the virtual elimination of parasites in developed countries, that menses have provided women with a health advantage regarding iron levels, since regular menses help lower iron levels. 

Men who regularly donate blood can also lower their iron levels.  Iron levels are correlated with the extent of damage caused by a heart attack.  Excess iron in the heart muscle is kind of like having dynamite sitting around; it’s not a problem until some damage occurs, and some “spark” lights off the dynamite.  Iron is a volatile, hazardous substance in the body and does a lot of damage if it isn’t properly contained; but excess iron storage is a modern phenomenon, not an ancient one.  Given the health benefits of eating meat regularly (especially red meat), eliminating meat to lower iron levels would be a Faustian bargain.  One would be better off donating blood regularly. 

I acquired all of the above information in one of the Drs. Michael and Mary Dan Eades’ books, I believe “Protein Power Lifeplan.”  Tried to find a convenient link to this info on the intertubes, but couldn’t.  I guess you’ll have to read the book. 

http://www.amazon.com/Protein-Power-Lifeplan-Michael-Eades/dp/0446678678/

“Do you mean permanently???”

I doubt it. But it is frustrating to see that commercial. “No medical reason for you to have your period.” Oh, really? Because when it comes to women’s health/bodies, well, that’s not as important, right? Kinda like the “illusive female orgasm”.

Very happy to see this article.

Oh, really? Because when it comes to women’s health/bodies, well, that’s not as important, right? 

I don’t even know what you mean by this.  Outside of pregnancy, what reason *would* there be to bleed every month?  It’s a nuisance, and I can’t comprehend the necessity.  I would assume it’s a strain on the body anyway, to produce the lining only to shed it on schedule over and over.  I’ve only ever gotten the impression from folks who are against amenorrhea that they feel it’s unnatural or ‘un-womanly” to go w/o periods, which…ok, fine with me.  *shrug*

Quote: but excess iron storage is a modern phenomenon, not an ancient one
Answer: Actually it is only lately that there has been MASSIVE iron stores as opposed to moderate iron stores. The massive iron stores we are seeing now are due to the government ADDING iron to our foods. It has been shown heme-iron , that iron found in meat / blood is absorbed at a high rate , at all times of iron status , PLUS meat iron binds to other iron and causes it TOO to be absorbed at a high rate. The ‘all times of iron status’ is the key phrase. They have shown the body downregulates the absorption of iron when we have enough but this meat iron is not controlled and it builds higher and higher and causes the aforementioned iron poisoning or age-related iron accumulation. So when one has a ham sandwich the iron from the ham binds to the iron added to the flour in the bread and one gets a jolt of iron a vegetarian would never see because THEIR iron is not absorbed because they don’t need it. It has been shown ‘iron deficient’ women tend not to get gestational diabetes and they’ve also shown morning sickness is cured by simply stopping the iron supplement given to pregnant women.

The iron alone is what PROVES man to be a herbivore. It has been shown , as I’ve said , the iron builds progressively / age-related iron accumulation which has been shown to cause disease. One cannot argue a food which kills an animal can be a natural food for the animal. They shown those people with the highest iron levels go on to develope diabetes.
THAT is why the NIH is presently conducting a study of iron depletion in diabetes and NAFLD.

That’s out and out not true. My mother was diabetic, and was anemic because of her period, so she had to take iron pills because she didn’t have ENOUGH iron in her system. Me too. People need iron to live – it’s not something you can OD on because you eat meat.

I’m not a fan of chemically altering something one’s body does naturally. I mean, having to go to the bathroom to take a crap can be a nuisance, too (depending on the cause of said crap), but that doesn’t mean I want to eliminate the need to crap.

Quote: That’s out and out not true. My mother was diabetic, and was anemic because of her period, so she had to take iron pills because she didn’t have ENOUGH iron in her system.
Answer: Anemic maybe but NOT ‘iron deficient’. There are MANY different types of anemia and TRUE iron deficiency is few and far between. Just because your mother was given iron doesn’t necessarily mean she was iron deficient. It seems you believe she was bleeding to death BECAUSE of her menses like doctors tell everyone ?
“Asians and Pacific Islanders have the highest mean levelsof iron in their blood of all ethnic groups involved, includingAfrican Americans, Caucasians, Hispanics, and Native Americans.Hemochromatosis, one of the most common inherited disorders among Caucasians, can lead to iron overload, or a buildup of iron in the body’s organs. This extra iron, which can be easily treated if detected early, can increase the risk of diabetes, arthritis, sexual dysfunction, liver disease and liver cancer and heart disease.”

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Heh.  That’s a perfectly valid opinion.  Suggesting that something is detrimental to one’s health when there’s no analysis to back it up though, and using that suggestion as validation of one’s views in some empirical way is not valid though.

I assume you’re suggesting that you’re against bc altogether though, since that is using a manufactured drug to prevent something ‘natural’ from occurring.

This person was given iron when they were in fact iron overloaded. It looks like they may have killed him . the result of ‘low serum iron’ BELIEVED to be iron deficiency anemia. “Hemochromatosis Presenting as Acute Liver Failure after Iron Supplementation”"The finding of anemia with a low serum iron concentration led to the prescription of iron in a patient with iron overload”

I fear you’ve been reading too much hardcore vegan propaganda. Pretty much every last culture of human beings on the planet has eaten meat, in addition to fruits and vegetables, all independently of each other, and some cultures such as the Inuit were even able to survive for centuries on almost nothing but caribou. Herbivores simply couldn’t do that. Now, obviously it isn’t healthy to eat only meat, but that’s why we use the word “omnivore” – there needs to be a balance of both plant and animal matter in a human’s diet.

Quote:  I fear you’ve been reading too much hardcore vegan propaganda
Answer: No I researched it thoroughly. The oxidative / rust theory of ageing is the latest in life extension ?
Quote: the Inuit were even able to survive for centuries on almost nothing but caribou
Answer: Funy you should mention Eskimos. THEY are specifically where they made the connection between eating meat and diabetes. A group of researchers did a study and found there was a difference in iron stores in these two villages and concluded it was due to their higher intake of meat. Years later another group of researchers were doing a diabetes study and they were surprised because the people who they thought wouldn’t ‘get’ the diabetes actually did and THEY were the ones who had the highest iron levels years earlier.
The researchers had ALREADY attributed this high iron stores in the Unmmannaq people to the high meat / haem iron INTAKE and when other researchers later found the highest diabetes in the Unmmannaq people it surprised them.
———————————- Diabetes and Impaired Glucose Tolerance Among the Inuit Population of Greenland 
“Surprisingly, the prevalence of diabetes in Unmmannaq was higher than
that in the towns of Nuuk and Qasigiannguit”
Diabetes Care 25:1766-1771, 2002
Epidemiology/Health Services/Psychosocial Research
© 2002 by the American Diabetes Association, Inc. ——————————————-“Prevalence of iron load highest in Uummannaq (men, 32.1%; women, 21.1%). ““Body iron stores can be explained by differences in the dietary intake of haem iron”

———————
The study below gives evidence to the fact iron has been found to be closely related to the developement of diabetes.
The evidence is strong enough to warrant a very large clinical trial of iron reduction in diabetes.
 
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00230087
Iron Depletion Therapy for Type 2 DM and NAFLDThis study is currently recruiting patients. Verified by National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK) March 2006

Quote: Given the health benefits of eating meat regularly (especially red meat), eliminating meat to lower iron levels would be a Faustian bargain.
Answer: The whole ‘deal’ comes down to oxidation / rust / free radicals / lipid peroxidation , etc. They use that as a ‘marker’ whether something is good or bad for you. It seems they only prefer though to use that marker when it comes to everything BUT meat. They actually tell us though to eat some vegetables WITH our meat to cancel out the oxidation caused BY eating the meat. So in effect they tell you you have to eat vegetables to correct the DAMAGE caused by the eating of the meat. The vegetables are full of ‘anti’-oxidants antioxidation. We needn’t argue whether or not a person CAN be a not animal product consumer and survive healthily because there are groups of people who have been doing it for generation upon generation , the Tamils, for example. Ahimsa and all that.

The trouble is men. Why are women the only ones shedding iron? And what about other species that menstruate – are they also too iron-rich from an omnivorous diet? 

My next birthday will have paper-mache endometrial cells as party favors. 

Quote: And what about other species that menstruate – are they also too iron-rich from an omnivorous diet?
Answer: “In a nutshell, humans, other primates, bats, and elephant shrews”
One could argue the same because as some people like to point out , chimps have been shown to eat meat at times. Which bats , vampire bats ? Elephant shrew , is it like a magpie which eats meat ? One might wonder whether a magpie bleeds ? 

Women do WHAT now?!

The correct term is “Inuit”. “Eskimo” is considered a racial slur by most.

Here’s a totally awesome book about understanding female fertility.  I actually know when during my cycle I am capable of getting pregnant!  (It’s only about 5-6 days per month.)  Please note this book is NOT about the rhythm method, this is about understanding how the female body functions.  This book can help a woman decide whether or not chemical birth control is a good option for her.

Taking Charge of Your Fertility, by Toni Weschler

All I can say is, we get our information from very different sources.  I eat a low carb, high saturated fat diet, lots of meat and animal fat, and I am healthy, after years of being unhealthy from eating a lot of grains, sugar, hydrogenated vegetable oils, and low fat, high fiber crap. 

For anyone who is interested in reading a book that blows vegan propaganda out of the water, I highly recommend “The Vegetarian Myth” by Lierre Kieth.  Hey, if militant vegans are willing to publicly attack a crippled women (and former vegan) with pepper spray, she must be saying something pretty damn powerful. 

And here’s a really intelligent review of the book here, by the aforementioned Dr. Michael Eades:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/the-vegetarian-myth/

This might be the crappiest set of comments I have ever seen on the Mary Sue. (Not all of them, but as a whole.) Who would have thunk it with all of the more controversial stuff that goes on here.

Sounds like you are a fervent meat eater. As I said , there is no need to argue , because , generation upon generation IE: Tamils have existed with no animal foods at all. You are arguing then a person can survive eating meat ? I suppose that is proven by the fact YOU are healthy ? There are PLENTY of people who eat meat. Coincidnentally there is also plenty of disease. As to you being ‘healthy’ we have to admit , eating meat has never been actually PROVEN to be ‘good for you’ because everyone seems to EAT meat already and the rate of disease is very high. Statistics show one in three is destined for diabetes.

Seconded.

Hey, did you know that being vegan makes you know more about periods than other people?

http://i.qkme.me/3fz7.jpg

;)

I learned this from Bill Mollison, who developed Permaculture as a sustainable design system based on decades of experience with non-industrial peoples. There is a plant native to Polynesia that the native peoples have used for birth control for generations. Allegedly, if a pubescent girl eats one leaf, she will be infertile until age 24 or so. Eating two leaves causes permanent infertility. The advantage to these islanders was that it kept population growth in check so they did not have to worry about using up their resources. At some point in the past these people didn’t use this plant, thus making it an “introduced” food–like everything else that humans eat that lower primates don’t! Very likely they discovered the use of this plant long before they reached the point of overpopulation. And it’s not the only instance of humans using herbal birth control. Birth control is not a new idea. 
The culture of industry tends to deny the truth of limited resources, because it cannot survive without an ever-increasing number of consumers. “Planned Parenthood” is not an option if we truly want a good life for our descendants. Most women do not want to be baby factories; in all populations wherein women have gained more autonomy and education, the birth rate permanently goes down. We as a species have beaten off all predators, the ones that would eat us from either the outside or the inside (parasites). Menses as a means of protecting the health of the mother–and of the group–I’d buy that. 

@facebook-852880113:disqus : well, sort of. It’s a bit more complicated than that. Some Inuits consider the term Eskimo to be pejorative, but some Eskimos are not Inuit, and don’t like to be referred to as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo#Origin_of_the_name_.22Eskimo.22

Awesome. Now whenever Aunt Flo is visiting my girlfriend, I’ll be irrevocably reminded of my first and second cousin once removed. Thanks a lot.

It seems it is very common for women to think they are all ‘bleeding to death’ .

Silence, iron-rich wretch! Your corrupted omnivorous mind cannot comprehend these truths!  :P

I love how this is a site that uses LOTR metaphors in discussing menstruation. It greatly appeals to my nerdy feminism. XD

What?  Do you know what a magpie is?  I know all the words you are using, but I don’t think they go together the way you assembled this sentence.  An elephant shrew is a small rodent, and a magpie is a bird.  Where is their connection?

tinyurl.ie/7fb

You women and your bloody cunts crack me up.  You chicks will make up any lame ass theory that rationailzes abortion wont you?  Little advice: stick to the geek girl stuff.  Talking about grown up stuff only makes you bitches look fucking stupid. 

phlpn.es/829r8s

hahahaha

this is neat; I have often wondered at the “advantage” of menstruation.

All in all, we have to admit that at some point, the evolutionary adaptations that humans have are no longer convenient to our modern lives. Menstruation (and the cramps, mess, etc) is just not cool. Most women (Mrs. Duggar is an exception) do not want to conceive with every copulation, and would rather put our biological clock on hiatus while we do other things.
But what are the consequences? What are the advantages/disadvantages to convenience over biology? 
I am curious to know how much our understanding of female reproductive/endocrine physiology changes over the next several generations having had life-long hormonal birth control available to them.

I have to think that the continual rebuilding and sloughing of tissue is a priming pump for neoplasia. But I have to remind myself, we only evolved to be successful reproducers, not to have long lifespans.

Wow, so no one says a thing about abortion and you make it your mission to prove that you’re not only pro-life but a misogynist troll as well?  Mission accomplished. Now, gtfo.

They are referring to the fasle period you experience while on hormonal birth control. There really isn’t any medical reason for you to have that false period if you are controlling your hormones with the pill. It’s caused by the pills, not your body, so why go through it if you don’t have to? 

BTW – non-hormonal IUD’s also gradually reduce your periods, and eliminate them entirely in many cases. 

haha, yes. awesome. 

They told us forever spaying your dog did nothing to them other than to make them infertile. They NOW tell us they live one-third less life.  
 

You’ve not really answered why men don’t shed iron in some way. 
Elephant shrews are insectivores.What about all the carnivorous mammals that don’t menstruate?If we were not omnivores we would not be able to digest meat, at least not in the quantities that we can.

Birds don’t menstruate (although some species do ovulate). They also don’t have live births; they lay eggs. Their physiology is entirely different to that of mammals, in terms of reproductive organs and processes.

These methods always seem like a whole lot of hassle to me… especially as my “cycle” has never been any such thing. Before hormonal BC use and after.

Great for those who have a cycle though. I knew a girl who claimed she knew to the hour when she’d come on. I can’t even predict a week >_>

Evolution isn’t a sentient being. It doesn’t pick and choose what it does and sometimes it does something utterly bizarre to a species, or something is a complete accident brought about by some other advantage. I put menstruation down to this phenomenon. So yeah, agreeing with the Baggins birthday bash metaphor.

If humans were herbivores, we would have much longer digestive tracts — more like that of a cow, horse, or gorilla.  Humans are omnivores, and the length of our GI tracts supports this.

 
“Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.”
 

A lot of comments on iron deficiency, so I just wanted to point out this post. http://professorkateclancy.blogspot.com/2011/01/iron-deficiency-is-not-something-you.html
Apparently menses doesn’t cause iron deficiency, which makes sense when you think about it. The implications are quite scary though :/

Human intestinal tracts are approximately 30 feet long, which would then put them in the carnivorous length of 3-6x their body length…

Teeth, omnivore, the end.

” The total length of the sheep’s digestive tract is about twenty-seven times as long as the animal’s body length. This dimension is common to all herbivores.”

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison3.html 

The caecum in herbivores is very large and used for breaking down cellulose. In carnivores it’s very small and in obligatory carnivores (those that HAVE to eat meat and cannot digest plant matter at all) it’s virtually non-existent. In humans? Well it’s sort of in the middle.

http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/farm/content/animalstructure.html#caecum 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum#Variation_across_species
For full reference; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum#cite_note-VB-1

We are not capable of maintaining a purely herbivorous diet without modern production techniques. By modern here I mean the use of heat, presses, fermentation, pastoral farming etc, as opposed to what most other animals do (ignoring honey bees and some species of ant, because colony building species are just weird… farming other species, taking slaves from other tribes, waging war).

We evolved to be omnivorous, again; probably before we were homo sapiens. It is the most effective survival strategy, allowing us to thrive in a vast array of environments. Without an omnivorous digestive tract we would not have been able to survive in the northern polar regions, the Australian outback, the dense forests of the Amazon and Indonesia. Our ancestors would have arrived in these places and rapidly died or evolved different digestive tracts. People from different regions do not have radically different digestive tracts, ergo we were able to digest the local flora AND fauna when we arrived, so were omnivorous.

(I’m aware of the blood type evolution and diet theory. While this is a not entirely unsupported idea it’s very controversial and does not separate us into different species, nor does it deny that even A types should eat only plant matter.)

The fact that eating excessive meat produces adverse health effects does not prove we should eat no animal produce. It proves that we should practice, as with many other things, moderation. Take, for example, sunlight. We all know that excessive exposure to direct sunlight can induce skin cancer (especially in those with low melanin levels). Do we advocate never going out in the sun? No, because that leads to rickets. Moderate exposure to sunlight is what is needed.

Besides; respiration is linked to age related degenerative diseases (including diabetes), should we stop breathing in and out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-radical_theory_of_aging

That’s an irrational argument.  Correlation does not imply causation.

 
 I find it a curiosity YOUR herbivore has 27 times it length and MY herbivore only has 10 times.

 
 http://us.fotolia.com/id/1260048

Teeth. Herbivore. Jury still out.

Quote: That’s an irrational argument.  Correlation does not imply causation.
Answer: ?? It DOES imply causation. IF there are three people in a room and there is something missing from the room , the FACT there are ONLY three men in the room IMMEDIATELY brings all three men into the scenario. IF one of those men WASN’T there THEN it would not imply he is a thief but since he IS there / scene of the crime DOES imply him to be a thief. Forensics101 

That’s your response? To point out a difference that I already pointed out? What’s your source? I gave one. Want some more?

http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/2095/understanding-the-ruminant-animals-digestive-system 

In a cow the small intestine ALONE is 150 feet long. Take a dairy cow to be, what, 8 feet long, being generous, that means the small intestine ALONE is almost 19 times the length of the cow.

However, the whole argument over length of the GI tract is a fallacy anyway (which is partly why I moved on to other evidence, as in the actual make up of the GI tract). The body to GI tract length ratio requirements of herbivores actually varies with the size of the animal; http://www.jstor.org/pss/2461476 

For example; the ratio for a rabbit IS 1:10, but the ratio for an ox is 1:20 and a sheep 1:27 (so Mr Veganism is bad up there wasn’t quite right about the ratio being true to all herbivores, it’s mostly true to all ruminate herbivores)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bdd.2510160502/pdf Biopharmaceutics & Drug DispositionVolume 16, Issue 5, Jan 2006 (Really good scientific, peer reviewed article about all the important differences between the human GI tract and those of other animals, including ratio to body size, size of different structures, PH and useful flora/fauna populations etc)

So comparing our GI tract to body length ratios with those of cows, rabbits, elephants or guinea pigs is an incorrect way to work out what we ‘should’ be eating. It’s got too narrow a scope. Everything involved in digestion must be looked at.

Now, care to address ALL my points and not just reiterate the fact I have different (and well sourced) numbers?

 
“That’s your response? To point out a difference that I already pointed out?”

Yes it seems it is. You are implying I wish to NOT attempt to ‘defend’ the herbivore hypothesis based on science studies available to all ? You are correct. People have and wish and will argue till hell freezes over the physical differences in animals which , in their mind , PROVE their stance. IF you think I wish to argue about man being a herbivore you are mistaken. I just pointed out how far you and others are APART in your stances. One ‘quote’ taken from a reputable ’source’ is 100% and more difference in what even constitutes the length of intestine OF a ‘herbivore’. There can be no REAL debate because even the ‘science’ doesn’t jibe. Imho.
MY opinion is the FACT iron filings are NOT missing in a woman’s diet and THAT is proven by her iron poisoning as opposed to deficiency of iron. I have studies which show CONTRARY to what doctors believe “massive iron deficiency in women” an iron excess which causes menstruation. You disagree with THAT statement ? 

So you don’t wish to argue your points, you just want us all to accept them blindly because you say so?

Huh…

Yeah, not gonna happen.

***************

Your point is, essentially, one animal was fed completely the wrong diet and became ill due to too much iron in its diet. Humans who have too much iron in their diet also become ill in a similar way. This means we shouldn’t eat meat, at all, ever.How do you explain the fact that we do not ALL, men included and especially, suffer hemochromatosis?Wondering whether or not fruit bats fed an iron rich diet might menstruate is not evidence. You have to show that animals spontaneously change their physiognomy and biology to menstruate monthly if fed on an iron rich diet.”MY opinion is the FACT iron filings are NOT missing in a woman’s diet and THAT is proven by her iron poisoning as opposed to deficiency of iron. I have studies which show CONTRARY to what doctors believe “massive iron deficiency in women” an iron excess which causes menstruation. You disagree with THAT statement ? “What fact? Iron is not missing in what woman’s diet? Men don’t menstruate, so how do they not suffer from iron overload? What about prepubescent girls? Or pregnant/breastfeeding women? Are they just dumping all their excess iron onto their child? If so, why do the children not suffer massive iron overloads?How do you explain away the fact that more women suffer iron deficiency than men?http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=921096 Or that women after the menopause don’t menstruate and don’t suffer iron overload all the time?Why do vegan women still menstruate (taking out of the equation very young teenage vegans who often do suffer amenorrhea, which is more likely linked to lack of dairy and fat intake preventing a thickening of the endometrium)? Or women who give blood regularly?If humans eating the wrong diet causes the menstrual cycle, why do other great apes also have menstrual cycles (i.e. their bodies are set up to have that cycle)? Are they being culturally brainwashed to consume the wrong foods? If it is an accident of diet why do we have a complex system of hormonal build ups, declines and physiological changes (e.g. the inactive ovary becoming a corpus luteum) not based in anyway what so ever on diet, except in cases of extreme fasting or overconsumption (sometimes of only one or two food groups)?Yes, diet does affect menstruation, but that is again a matter for moderation, not fasting. A vegan MUST consume plant matter high in proteins, fats and iron amongst other things. This can only be done by eating food not found in their own countries. Complete veganism would have been impossible to many ancient humans.

THIS shows directly iron stores / reserves are involved in menses. It also shows the HIGHER the red blood cell count is involved. Iron is known to be given to people to raise their red blood cells.

Menstruation does not cause anemia: Endometrial thickness correlates
positively with erythrocyte count and hemoglobin concentration in
premenopausal women.
Clancy KB, Nenko I, Jasienska G
Am J Hum Biol. 2006 Aug 17; 18(5): 710-713
Menstruation has often been cited as a risk factor for iron-deficiency
anemia.
This study tested whether normal, premenopausal women’s luteal
endometrial thickness (ET) was associated with their red blood cell
count (RBC) and hemoglobin concentrations (Hg), and therefore
whether a high ET put women at risk for anemia.
Endometrial thickness can be considered a reasonable proxy for menstrual
blood loss in normal women.Twenty-six healthy women from the Mogielica Human Ecology Study Site in Poland, aged 20-40 years (29 +/- 5.3 years,
mean +/- SD), were selected.
Subjects’ ET was measured by transvaginal ultrasound in the luteal phase of
the menstrual cycle, and their red blood cell count and hemoglobin concentrations were measured by fasting morning blood samples.
Controlling for day of ET measurement, RBC and Hg were positively correlated
with ET (r(2) = 0.24, P = 0.05; r(2) = 0.25, P = 0.04, respectively).
We propose that, contrary to popular understanding, a thicker endometrium suggests greater iron reserves, rather than greater risk for anemia, in healthy women.

Am. J. Hum. Biol. 18:710-713, 2006. (c) 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Wait, what?? Who tells us? One-third less life than what? I think you’ll find that domestic companion animals are living far longer than their ancestors of only a few decades ago. Even 40 years ago, it was unusual to hear of a dog that made it to 10–of course, leash laws were far less stringent, there are many more medications and preventive treatments available now, and commercial diets are much improved. Complicated picture, but your assertion needs some support.

Actually, most women have excessivly low iron levels, not moderate or high levels. And men tend to eat more meat than we do, so according to your theory, they should menstruate too. :S
(poor sperm, they never stood a chance…)

By the way, please show me a totally vegitarian primate. I’m having the darndest time finding one not made up by peta.

 Quote: Men don’t menstruate, so how do they not suffer from iron overload?Answer: Who says men are not iron overloaded ? They ARE iron overloaded.
Quote: What about prepubescent girls? Or pregnant/breastfeeding women? Are they just dumping all their excess iron onto their child?
Answer: Yes women DO ‘dump’ their iron into their unborn child. This is well known. Women have two ways of ‘unloading’ the iron , menses and dumping it into their unborn child. IE: gestational diabetes
Quote: If so, why do the children not suffer massive iron overloads?
Answer: Children commonly suffer allergies and asthma as a couple of examples.
“Excess dietary iron is the root cause for increase in childhood Autism and allergies”THIS study shows what happens to the iron.
“Iron overload in the neonatal period results in severe and persistent memory deficits in adult rats”
Quote:How do you explain away the fact that more women suffer iron deficiency than men?Answer:They bleed. I thought that is what this thread is about. As TO this ‘iron deficiency’ in women , the ‘marker’ USED to DIAGNOSE iron deficiency is set too high. So when they SAY a person IS iron deficient they in fact are NOT iron deficient BECAUSE the marker they use is wrong. They say a woman MUST have a certain number of red blood cells or they are ‘iron deficient’ when in fact it is not the CORRECT number of red blood cells which they are using to diagnose iron deficiency. They have shown the same in children. The researchers showed the marker used to diagnose iron deficiency in children seems to be set too high because even healthy children could not seem to raise their hemoglobin into the area the researchers considered to be non iron deficient. 
Quote:Or that women after the menopause don’t menstruate and don’t suffer iron overload all the time?Answer: Actually I specifically mentioned HOW , when women hit menopause , they are no longer ‘protected’ BY their menses / loss of iron and NOW they begin to show the SAME disease rates as men IE: heart disease rates rise.
Quote:Why do vegan women still menstruate 
Answer: You are VERY sure they do ? It has been stated many vegetarian women DO NOT menstruate to any degree. 

 http://www.examiner.com/pet-health-in-national/spaying-female-dogs-does-spaying-shorten-your-dog-s-lifespan
 

“By the way, please show me a non human, totally vegitarian primate. I’m having the darndest time finding one not made up by peta.”

Highland gorilla. As to ‘comparing primates to humans’ ? did I ? You WISH to compare humans to an animal which will kill the babies of a female IN ORDER TO have her more conducive to copulation ?  
 

You can’t radically edit your post once I’ve responded. That’s cheating.

You keep saying “studies show” without pointing out the studies. Until you source your information you might as well be singing Livin’ On a Prayer.

“Who says men are not iron overloaded ? They ARE iron overloaded. ”

The study cited does not say that. It says that those individuals at risk of arteriosclerotic vascular disease benefited from lowering their iron intake (not, I might note, becoming vegan). This is not the same as suffering hemochromatosis.

Those who are lactose intolerant benefit from not consuming dairy products, that does not mean everyone should stop eating dairy.

Besides which, other studies have been less conclusive; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17685184

Again, as that abstract states, mild reduction may be beneficial. Mild, moderate; practice moderation.

“Yes women DO ‘dump’ their iron into their unborn child. This is well known. Women have two ways of ‘unloading’ the iron , menses and dumping it into their unborn child. IE: gestational diabetes”

Then why do all children of non-vegan women not suffer terribly?

Your case is reasonable for moderating meat consumption, not veganism. We do, in the West, consume far more meat than we require. We did not evolve to consume meat three times a day, seven days a week. Up until recently in the UK families only ate meat once or twice a week; the Sunday roast and left overs.

“Children commonly suffer allergies and asthma as a couple of examples.
“Excess dietary iron is the root cause for increase in childhood Autism and allergies”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu…”

That’s just a medical hypothesis, a proposal for a study.

“Quote:How do you explain away the fact that more women suffer iron deficiency than men?Answer:They bleed”

So what you’re saying is; menstruation causes iron deficiency.

I rest my case.

“The researchers showed the marker used to diagnose iron deficiency in children seems to be set too high because even healthy children could not seem to raise their hemoglobin into the area the researchers considered to be non iron deficient.”

What researchers?

“Quote:Why do vegan women still menstruate 
Answer: You are VERY sure they do ? It has been stated many vegetarian women DO NOT menstruate to any degree.”

Unless I was hallucinating I am very sure I menstruated during my three years as a vegan (before use of hormonal BC), six years as a veggie and currently running at three years as someone who eats meat on average once a fortnight… but then my body is completely bonkers.

Where has it been stated many vegetarian women don’t menstruate? Because when I looked into it (before posting what I did above, as I wanted to be sure), on various vegan forums there WERE threads started by women suffering amenorrhoea, however, they were all young, had recently lost a lot of weight or were appraoching menopausal age anyway. Many women replied that they had NOT lost their period;
http://www.vegtalk.org/health-forum/new-vegan-period-t2646.html

As I explained above, a sudden and drastic change in diet will affect hormonal cycles. A fasting can induce amenorrhoea (because it’s calorie heavy), a drop inf dairy and fat intake will do the same because those foods are more easily used to manufacture certain hormones (dairy, for example, is an excellent source for progesterone).

You have a perfectly good case for people in heavily industrialised societies to lower their meat intake; most things are unhealthy in excess, even water. There is no proof that menstruation is caused by meat consumption.

Question; IF as a species we all became completely vegan (good luck promoting that in Africa, the Arctic circle, the Amazon) and somehow all women no longer had a functioning hormonal cycle, would we still be able to breed? Or to put it a different way; does iron reduction induced amenorrhoea result from no build up at all of the uterine wall lining, or does the wall lining merely remain intact?

Quote: It says that those individuals at risk of arteriosclerotic vascular disease benefited from lowering their iron intake 
Answer: “they seem to benefit, metabolically and hemodynamically, from lowering of body Fe to levels commonly seen in premenopausal females”

Nope , it says levels , not intake.

Quote: Then why do all children of non-vegan women not suffer terribly?
Answer: Enterocolitis. Gangrene of the guts. They suffer terribly.

Quote:So what you’re saying is; menstruation causes iron deficiency.
Answer: The body ATTEMPTS to lower the iron into a state of  NORMAL. THAT is the PURPOSE of the menses , to lower iron / oxidation to allow for the safe gestation of an egg. As I said what ‘they’ consider to be “iron deficiency” / abnormal / too low is actually normal / just right.

Quote: What researchers ?
Answer: “The current definitions for iron deficiency and iron deficiency anaemia in infants are inadequate and need evaluation.”

http://www.docguide.com/diagnostic-criteria-iron-deficiency-infants-should-be-reevaluated

“Nope , it says levels , not intake.”

You completely missed the point; it says those who are at risk of arteriosclerotic vascular disease benefit, NOT everyone.

And if you’re saying they benefit from lowering of levels and not intake… well then they can “intake”as much as they like, right?

“Enterocolitis. Gangrene of the guts. They suffer terribly.”

No, they don’t. If they did we’d have a lot more sick kids. Not every single child of a non-vegan woman ends up in hospital with iron overload.

We have not died out as a species due to massive child mortality rates so how can EVERY SINGLE non-vegan baby be suffering?

“The body ATTEMPTS to lower the iron into a state of NORMAL. THAT is the PURPOSE of the menses , to lower iron / oxidation to allow for the safe gestation of an egg. As I said what ‘they’ consider to be “iron deficiency” / abnormal / too low is actually normal / just right.”

We do only women do this?

You said iron overload causes menstruation. I asked why do more women suffer (not that their iron levels are “low” but that they actually become ill enough to seek medical help) iron deficiency than men. You said “they bleed”. Ergo; menstruation causes iron deficiency.

Your two sources state that fewer children are iron deficient than previously thought, not that any more have too much iron in their bodies.

From your second source; “A concentration of 1.6 mg Fe/L formula meets the iron requirement of healthy term infants aged ≤6 mo, and providing more iron does not benefit iron stores. Fortification with bovine lactoferrin or nucleotides did not benefit either iron status or erythrocyte fatty acids. Additional studies are needed to establish age-appropriate cutoffs for iron deficiency and iron deficiency anemia in infancy.”

So… giving MORE iron to children does not increase their own iron stores.

That study also seems to be about improving absorption of iron in formula fed infants to the levels of those who are breast fed, indicating that breast milk does not contain too much iron.

Again, from the second source; “More recent studies using stable isotope methods have shown that the iron absorbed from breast milk represents ≈20% of the iron content (23), and that from infant formula represents only 6% (24). According to these more recent data, formulas would need to contain ≈3.5 times more iron than mature breast milk to result in the absorption of similar amounts of iron… … This is most likely explained by the well-known fact that the amount of iron absorbed is negatively proportional to the amount of iron in the diet (25).” (emphasis my own)

So adding more iron makes no difference to absorption because the body stops absorbing it at a certain point. Obviously this iron passing through the digestive system isn’t good and in fact reduces copper absorption (according to this study). However, “… mature human milk contains 0.2–0.3 mg Fe/L” Which is, to use the technical jargon, a butt load less than any formula currently on the market.

The final conclusion from that same study; “In conclusion, we believe that a concentration of 1.6 mg Fe/L formula meets the requirement of healthy term infants up to 6 mo of age and that higher iron concentrations are unnecessary and may pose some risks. Furthermore, it is evident that the assessment of iron status at 6 mo of age is problematic and that further studies are needed to obtain reliable reference values and establish appropriate cutoffs for iron status in infants.”

Breast milk contains very low amounts of iron but it’s not too much, according to that study. It’s just enough.

I’d like to see a study that examines the concentration of iron in breast milk from women on a variety of different diets (but I can’t be bothered looking for it, my brain has had enough of a workout today, this day of hangovers, from that one study).

You haven’t answered my question; IF as a species we all became completely vegan (good luck promoting that in Africa, the Arctic circle, the Amazon) and somehow all women no longer had a functioning hormonal cycle, would we still be able to breed? Or to put it a different way; does iron reduction induced amenorrhoea result from no build up at all of the uterine wall lining, or does the wall lining merely remain intact?

Second question; why do women not menstruate while breast feeding? Surely it would be better for the species if women menstruated to, as you propose is its cause, shed iron than dump it on their child if it is so terribly bad for the infant?

this jhny…dude is a troll!! you have so many studyss to talk about which for all we know could be flawed. There are real women out there who are severly anaemic. I was and would rather not wish anyone be , its terrible. ?I also fasted regularly and never skipped a period. When i was vegan i menstruated terribly but now i’m meateater/low carb, I menstruate normally like 28 days and very short light periods. Menses are entirely hormonal not iron related.

“Menstruation-associated blood loss is a source of gender differences in brain iron”

THAT ‘just in’ shows that menses lowers body iron and when a woman has a hysterectomy her iron levels go up , which has the researchers believing the difference in brain iron leads to LESS neurodegeneration in women BECAUSE of this ‘lack of iron’ which results BECAUSE of menses. Sooo just like the previous work shows a woman has her menses WHEN the iron gets high / high hemoglobin AND it also protects the brain by reducing the iron levels in the brain . Giving credence to the belief , low iron , is actually GOOD because it protects the developing embryo from rust / oxidation PLUS it protects the brain from Parkinsons’ , Alzheimers’ , Huntingtons’ , Multiple Sclerosis , Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis , etc. 

Quote: this jhny…dude is a troll!!   Menses are entirely hormonal not iron related.
Answer: First off , let me say , and you’re stupid looking. If you have a study or two which show that iron is not involved , reference them , until then don’t REFER to ME at all. Your opinion is all that matters. Getting personal only makes people think you are HAVING your period.  

Oh Shard, I have to say I read a majority of your comments, and you are my hero. Thanks for being so amazing! <3