Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg Says Women Would Benefit From Marrying Other Women

This is great advice!…for gay women… >.>

Working harder is the how men are conditioned to express their love for their children and wives. Men who WANT to spend their time and attention to loving and affection don’t last very long before learning to either stop caring or acting like they don’t care.

Now they’re being demonized for it…

I wish modern women’s rights people didn’t have their heads so far up their own asses. So little perspective.

So….men only care for their kids when they hardly see them? O.o

 Gay women who live where gay marriage is legal.

 I’m saying many men are condition to show they care BY hardly seeing them, essentially.

Free will is great thing ;)

 Example, on lists of what makes an attractive male. One of the recurring features is “ambition.” Looking for/seeking relationships for their own sake is not rewarded in childhood and adolescence, in males.

Men tend to group by shared goals/interests/enemies.
And if men seek relationships with women for their own sake… “something’s missing” that prevents attraction from taking place. I believe this is one of the major causes of the “friend zone” phenomena that they keep complaining about.

It’s insidious, really.

 Funny thing.  My mum worked full time and did all the housework and still found time to socialise with me, cook dinner, help me with my homework and give love and affection. 

Most mums do.  The difference is knowing that your jobs don’t end when you leave the office.  Parenting is a job too.  Your paid job ends when you leave the office and your unpaid job – all that housework and childrearing – starts as soon as you walk through the front door.  It all has to get done, but studies show that DESPITE working as many hours as men, women still bear the brunt of it.  And still get to feel guilty for not finding more hours in the day.

How’s that for your perspective?

Not if the societal pressure is greater.

I am really just not seeing where there’s any ‘demonization’ in the above post (w/ the caveat that I’m not in a place where I can watch the video).  What I do see is discussion of the impact of gender expectations upon the lives of working women.  So the basis for your comment is….?

That’s alot to ask of one human being. I don’t imagine she had alot of time to/for herself.

Even IF you’re a single parent, what’s best for your children might not be best for the individual.
But when competent people are limited, and when family is unavailable, someone has to be left out of the equation.

Funfact: neither women nor “women’s rights people”/feminists are a monolith.

 Hrrm…
My choice of words was a tad… hyperbolic.
But I found the implications of the piece very troubling.

“Men don’t feel guilty about working full time, because they generally lack a sense of shared responsibility. So women should marry women instead.”

I found that extremely problematic.

I know. Women are suffering because while they’re allowed/expected to do either/both homemaker and worker.

It’s only culturally acceptable for men to be the worker.

And working to support children and raising children all by one’s self is very, VERY stressful, time consuming, and guilt enduing from limited time spent doing one thing or the other.

Family/friends are needed to assist. Or… two parents.
And instead of advocating a cultural shift in what is considered acceptable for men to do…
She advocates chucking them for the most part.

Surely I’m not the only one who sees this.
It’s SO one-sided it makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

 I know they’re not. Better than most.
I should have specified.

[quote]
“I feel guilty when my son says, ‘Mommy, put down the BlackBerry, talk to me’ and that happens far too much,” she said. “I think all women feel guilty. I think what’s interesting is I don’t know many men who feel guilty. I don’t know a lot of men who feel guilty for working full time, it’s expected that they’ll work full time…I wonder if there were more shared responsibility if more men would feel guilty too and women would feel less of it.” [/quote]

So because SHE feels guilty for ignoring her kid, that means women would be better off marrying another woman? 

Here’s the other problem with her statement, as a member of the sex that is supposed to be more naturally empathetic, she blatantly admits that she doesn’t know of a lot of men who feel guilty working full time yet has she ever taken the time to seek them out? 

I assure you, there are plenty of men who feel guilty for working full time, missing out on the school plays, the sports games and other special family events. But when you’re supposed to be the provider/protector of your family you’ll RELUCTANTLY 
miss seeing your little girl in her tap shoes at the recital in order to work that extra overnight shift in order to afford her braces to make sure she doesn’t go hungry this week. 

There are plenty of men who are actually jealous of their wives because women have the advantage when it comes to being connected to their kids and their natural, nurturing abilities makes that advantage exponential. It’s not always fair but the bottom line is that different responsibilities doesn’t mean any less of the share of guilt when it comes to being a parent. 

I tend not to give in to societal pressures if I don’t agree with them.  No matter how great.

 Oh absolutely, she had to work damn hard.  That’s parenting for you.  I’m eternally grateful for the life she gave me.

But point is, anyone choosing to have kids has to make sure all that stuff gets done.  Paid work NEEDS to be done to pay the bills, housework NEEDS to be done to keep the place safe and hygienic, dinners NEED to be cooked so the kids don’t starve and kids NEED to spend time with their parents/guardians in order to ensure they grow up as healthy individuals.  These days the economy is not designed to allow most households to survive with one breadwinner and one SAHP, so both parents NEED to work where there are two and both are able to.

Problem is, as Sheryl Sandberg is pointing out, studies have shown that women still bear the majority of the childrearing and housework duties. (speaking averages here, I know men aren’t a monolith any more than women are).

That said, I have to say I’ve never met any men younger than 50 who were raised to “express love by providing”.  And even then it’s rare – I mean blimey, my grandad’s in his 70s and I’ve never seen him not on his feet doing housework, always sharing the load with my nan.  Even if there are still men being socialised that way, no one’s saying men are BAD PEOPLE for doing this, but regardless of whether it’s anyone’s fault or not, it’s still a problem that needs to be addressed.

 There’s no incentive. He’s significantly less likely to be seen as attractive. Studies show stay at home dads don’t retain their attractiveness in women’s eyes. And nobody includes stay at home parenting in the whole “you can do anything” speeches given to children.

It’s a nearly impossible thing to do in our current cultural climate.

 I agree. It’s a kind of dying thing, but not being replaced by anything.

I do think something is wrong with how our culture views males who keep the house in order.
They’re often portrayed in fiction as the butt of humor.

And it’s interesting to note I’ve never personally met a female who has expressed desire in a man who would be a home maker.
Even less who are even OKAY with the idea.

That isn’t really what she said though.  Ms. Sandberg pointed out that you’re in a better position (as a woman) if you can marry a woman because the house-hold split is more likely to be even.  AND she addresses the conditioning aspect (though admittedly without delving too far) here:
“I don’t know a lot of men who feel guilty for working full time, it’s expected that they’ll work full time…I wonder if there were more shared responsibility if more men would feel guilty too and women would feel less of it.”

Which can be read as addressing and changing gendered expectations regarding work/home responsibility.  Saying we should ditch men is a bit of hyperbole…*ahem*.

Thanks for acknowledging it. Sorry if I was a bit chippy there….”friend zone” complaint really grinds my gears.

“Studies show stay at home dads don’t retain their attractiveness in women’s eyes.”
    – Citation needed.

“And nobody includes stay at home parenting in the whole “you can do anything” speeches given to children.”
  – Isn’t this a problem that is inherently rooted in misogyny, though?  I mean, it’s precisely because the activity of running a household has been labelled ‘femenine’ and consistently undervalued?

(why wont this thing allow me to reply directly to the comment? Argh.)

That sexism is bad for men too is hardly new ground.  Still think you’re reading too much into it if think she’s really advocating ditching men instead of making a point.

It occurs to me that you might enjoy this article which addresses sexism being bad for men too:

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/147626/5_stupid,_unfair_and_sexist_things_expected_of_men/?page=entire

 There’s a reason for it. And why SO many people are complaining about it.

And it’s not necesarily because men just feel SO entitled to sex. (Many/some may, but we need to think about the other side.)

  – Isn’t this a problem that is inherently rooted in misogyny, though?
 I mean, it’s precisely because the activity of running a household has
been labelled ‘femenine’ and consistently undervalued?

The activity isn’t inherently feminine, though.
Thing is… men are the only ones directly limited in activity due to the stigma.
It’s what the man is NOT doing that is being stigmatized.

Homemaker work is often seen as being a leech. (I hear this most often from women.)

Househusband backlash as high-flying wives ditch men they wanted to stay at home
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-467390/Househusband-backlash-high-flying-wives-ditch-men-em-em-wanted-stay-home.html#ixzz1raWjUqY0

 Sorry, that’s just seems to be her implication by telling women they should marry women instead of men.

…instead of addressing the underlying problem.

 …very deeply.

 Also… from a guy. Stay at home mothers and what they do are EXTREMELY valued. Visibly valued by anyone who was raised by one. I.E. most people who live.

It’s just not something men are allowed to do in our current cultural climate. So addressing from the lens of female/feminine victimization isn’t going to change anything very soon.

Homemaking isn’t inherently feminine, no.  The activity has been characterized as feminine for a long time.  The view that homemaking isn’t valuable and that house spouses are leeches stems from sexism.  I happen to think it’s a prime example of how sexism hurst men as well as women.  

Erm….that link is to the Daily Mail.  I won’t assume anything about your familiarity with their place amongst british tabloids…but they are less affectionately known as the “Daily Fail” for a reason.  I would (and do) take that article with a grain of salt…

 (Still won’t let me reply directly…rarble)

I’m very curious to know what you think the other side is.  

Not sure if you’re referring to my first paragraph or third, but if it’s the first: it’s not just an implication*. “But find someone to marry who’s going to do half.”  expresses her bottom line pretty well.  

Pointing out there’s a problem is the first step….she didn’t set out to cure all problems arising from gender expectations, just advise women on how to get ahead in business.

Wowee, this comments thread is a mess of MRA’s and their allies.  What a spectacularly embarrassing mess that could easily be cleaned up if The Mary Sue had an adequate moderating policy.

Y’all, don’t feed the MRA trolls.  They’re the worst kind.

The Daily Mail also gives tips on how to proof your house against the Boogey Man.  Seriously, stop reading that garbage.  It’ll rot your brain =P

 I suspected that article might have been exaggerating. But the story presented seemed to fit with my personal experience.

I haven’t met a woman in my life who’s expressed interest in a stay at home dad… except Blossom of the Powerpuff Girls.

 But MEN are the only ones who are almost universally panned for staying at home. Men are not to be provided for. They provide. End of story.

What we have are women who measure their OWN success by that fallicious standard.

(This is why I take issue with the “equality to men” definition of feminism. We are not to be used as some ideal, objective standard by which your humane/equitable treatment is measured against.)

 Women CAN do the providing, if they want. And that doesn’t generally affect her femininity, by our culture’s standards.

Men are panned for staying at home because it’s been identified as a woman’s role and there’s this attitude out there that men being feminine = bad.  Same reason guys get sh*t for wearing dresses but women wear pants w/out comment.  Sexism, again, is bad for men too.

 I’m not MRA.

The “other side” of the issue is what I mentioned in the post in response to Joanna.

And it’s only considered bad for a man to do those things for the reason I mentioned.

It wasn’t terribly clear, but if your point boils down to “men complain about friend-zone because women aren’t attracted to men who aren’t providers and those complaints are justified” ….

I don’t particularly give a hoot about why women aren’t attracted to men when I say I hate the friend-zone complaint. Complaining how unfair it is that the woman one has chosen isn’t attracted to them =/= complaining how unfair societal expectations are, it’s complaining about not getting exactly what one wanted.  And that’s just immature.

If sexist standards inform attraction, so be it. That’s a legit complaint.  BUT it doesn’t legitimate being upset that someone else’s attraction isn’t what one personally desires it to be.

 Here’s the thing… If a woman loses her job. She can marry or have child support paid to her.

But if I lose my job, out of college, I’m out on the streets. I’ve no one to rely on except myself. And it’s very unlikely for a jobless man to be of any use to a woman.

My life options are very limited.

A WOC, for example, wouldn’t have that same issue as a MOC.

I think this is one reason “Single adults who are
homeless are most likely to be men they account for 45% of the single
adults who are homeless; single women make up 14%”http://library.thinkquest.org/10374/html/facts.html

And the reasons you stated have conceptual underpinnings that are sexist.  And sexism hurts everyone.  

I think we may be talking around each other at this point in that we kind of agree… except you seem to want to toss blame at women and I don’t get why.  

See, this is where I think marriage breaks down. You can have a long-term committed relationship with someone that has absolutely nothing to do with sex. If you decide you want to have flings with folks of either gender but you and a best friend want to live together forever, because you both can’t imagine ever being able to put up with someone else – I don’t see why those sorts of folks can’t get married too. 

This isn’t me, by the way, but it is something I can easily picture. 

I’m confused by the second half of this statement. The first half seems pretty clear – you see ambition as something strictly related to a job. The second half… if a man seeks a relationship with a woman for her own sake, then why does attraction matter at all? I don’t get the insidiousness of it. If he wants to be friends that’s awesome, but – as someone commented elsewhere – women are not vending machines where you put in friendship and sex falls out. Women are people who expect friends to be friends, not just people hanging around hoping for a little nookie and pretending to be cool in the meantime. 

“Here’s the thing… If a woman loses her job. She can marry or have child support paid to her.”

Wow. Because there’s no stigma attached to doing that *at all.* 

Blackberry?  Really?

Yes, they should marry other women, hot other women.

 I’m not saying attraction isn’t important.
What’s insidious is what kind of man is idealized in our culture over others. Rather arbitrarily, and unquestioned.

All these body image issues women have. How certain body types are idealized over others. I’m very body positive.

.. we need also be more “personality positive.”

Note: that one’s projected personality doesn’t always/often correlate with the person’s character. (See: politicians.)

 I know a couple. Myself being one. Admittedly, my husband and I don’t have kids and don’t plan to, but coming home to a clean catbox, dishes done, and a fresh cocktail is f-ing awesome.

Doesn’t help your “personally met” caveat, but still, we’re out there.

But realize: the main problem most people (not just women) have with a partner who just does housework is the lack of a second income. Since a lot of women are still in fields on a lower pay grade, and even in the same fields of work women still often make less, a missing second income is a BFD. The couples I know where the male stays at home are generally due to unemployment or limited self-employment; there’s only one I know of where the husband stays home because the wife can cover all their household costs. Same as the households where the women stay home: the husband can cover all costs. These days, this is rare.

See, when the onus to make the first move and take full responsibility for the interaction is put on males as well. What would normally be pretty harmless then creates an added sense of… distress.

It’s not something I worry about as much these days. Not anymore.

But when I hear women complain about men complaining about the friend zone. They’re usually people who don’t have to worry about finding intimate, emotional support for that sort of thing. (Men aren’t often equipped to deal with each other on that level.) Or people who are attracted to them. (Even one’s who’s body doesn’t fit the Victor’s Secret standard of beauty…) Or one’s who take responsibility for those sorts of interactions.
Like, ever approached the opposite sex, and been initially shot down/rejected in the double digits?
If you factor that in with the phenomena of friend-zoning that’s like… hope destruction.

Like I said, it’s not something I worry about too much these days. But I understand perfectly why they complain so much.

They’re not just complaining JUST to be complaining. There’s a normally unexamined system underlying their seemingly unwarranted distress.
Now… if there was a way for them to make it affect them less than it does, I’m sure they would gladly do so. But… they opt for letting us know how they feel, because they can’t. Very radically, I might add. Letting us know how vulnerable they are, even if it isn’t totally rational. Most guys who complain have NO idea why it keeps happening. I KNOW. Most don’t see how all this connects, though.

(Guys who are only nice to women in exchange for sex can go f*** themselves, but I’m not talking about them, here.)

Oh, a stigma attached to be sure.
But she won’t be, you know… on the streets begging.

(Hell, a homeless woman can prostitute herself. Way more lucrative than begging, but not man would be willing to pay him because of sexist standards informing attraction.)

I’m Pro-Sex Worker, btw… but let’s not get into that now.

You know, I’d consider myself pro-sex worker as well, but what you described sounds a hell of a lot more like sexual exploitation of indigent women and do you have any idea how vulnerable sex workers (particularly those that can’t afford ‘indoor’ sex work) are to rape, assault…yeah. No. Let’s not get into that right now. My little needle just hit red.

Re: ¶1 – you’ve heard my ‘see, sexism hurts men’ spiel.

Gosh, sounds almost as bad as being socialized to be accommodating and carrying the expectations that you’ll service the emotional needs of others – another layer of hatred for the friend zone complaint.  The friend zone complaint goes beyond being nice and expecting sex, it’s being nice in the expectation of intimacy and emotional gratification.  And when you *can’t* reciprocate feelings for someone, being put in the position of not fulfilling the expectation of that women are nurturing and provide emotional support.

And ftr, I’ve been the initiator, I’ve been shot down, I’ve even been put in the friend zone, but I didn’t whinge about it online.

“Gosh, sounds almost as bad as being socialized to be accommodating
and carrying the expectations that you’ll service the emotional needs of
others.”
Oh, yeah. I’ve been THERE too. I understand how draining that can be.
But I’ve also been in the place where I’ve didn’t have access to adequate emotional support too.
Personally I’d rather be in the former. (Not to mention there’s the thing where males are less likely to see therapists.)

I try to be as emotionally supportive to male friends as I am to my female friends. (Though some are less likely to open up to me due to my maleness.)
By and large males would probably be less emotionally dependent on female support/approval if they could relate to each other on that level.

And not trying to erase the experience of girls who it’s happened to.

I just think sexism informs attraction in such a way that it tends to happen to a certain personality type consistently… then that person changes into something else in order to feel less… worthless.

The culture must change. No one is unscathed.

Take a look at the rest of the interview, it’s a good one.

Yikes, jumping to conclusions about all modern women’s rights people much?

I hate to mention this, but this was a single comments taken out of a full quote which is partly taken out of context on not only this site, but quite a few news sites online.

She’s not saying ‘hey everyone turn gay’ she’s merely mentioning how things may be more 50/50 in the home based on women’s idea of fairness in home duties.

 “I think all women feel guilty. I think what’s interesting is I don’t know many men who feel guilty.”
Okay, so “Cat’s in the Cradle” did NOT open a fresh wound in the modern male psyche? It’s also really easy to have equal responsibilities around the house when you both use the same housekeeper. Different income levels and work situations produce different arrangements, so there’s really no reason to champion one over another.

Ok. So, you’re saying that some traits in men are considered more attractive than others by the majority of women, and you feel that the traits which are most popular are not good traits. Your example was ambition. So you feel that less ambitious men should be more popular with women. 

Leaving aside the intrinsic value of ambition as a characteristic and all the possible iterations of meaning in the word, and all the possible things someone can be ambitious about – what you seem to be saying is that you think women should pick less ambitious men. Men who are content to just hang out. Men who don’t really want to do anything but spend time with their women. 

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that you feel this way because you feel your personal characteristics aren’t being valued by the women you want to have a relationship with. You seem to be making a sweeping social statement about what women select and how they should change based on your personal desire to be recognized and valued and a sense that you’re underappriciated.   

Society values what it values, and individuals value what they value, and saying someone should change because they have the wrong set of values… rarely works. And ignores the fact that they choose their own values, and you don’t get to pick for them. Resenting their choices because their choices don’t line up with your desires is unfortunately rather common. 

You might consider the irony here, that you’re apparently pursuing a woman who is ambitious enough to want a driven man – she is ambitious, but her ambition is aimed at the guy she wants instead of a job. You perhaps find her ambition attractive, just as you’re putting down women for desiring the same trait in men. 

 OH kay… I can see where I led us down this road, but that’s not quite what I’m saying.

Let’s compare this to male attraction to females.
See… the things about women that men find attractive are indicators of health, youth, and fertility, but what are considered signs thereof are informed by culture. (Even though many different body types are capable of being all three of these things, she may not be seen as attractive as someone with a supermodel-type body.)

Same thing for traits that are attractive to females (that usually have some kind of utilitarian survival/protector benefit.)
Ambition, confidence, power (physical/fiscal/social)
I’m NOT saying those things are bad or people should go for people who lack them. Virtually EVERYONE has them to some extent.

The problem is how our culture informs people what is an indicator thereof… Or what type of ambition is acceptable.

 If it’s impossible to have a wrong set of values, or manifestation thereof, then someone’s totally legitimate in considering/calling plus-sized women ugly or unattractive.

Or they could just live together forever without the whole binding by law bit.

I love that song… no, I have nothing more to add to this comment.

But I know of many men who do spend time with their children. Men who work part/flexi time to bring the kids to and volunteer at playgroup. Men who socialise in mixed gender environments with other parents. Men who have opted to stay at home with the children because their wife has the better pay cheque.

They’re certainly not in the majority, but massive social change takes more than a single generation.

How do all women’s rights groups stop men from taking steps towards equality in child rearing?

“If you can marry a woman, that’s better because the split between two women in the home is pretty even, the data shows.”

Hahahahahahaha! She hasn’t met my female friends! Or male friends for that matter. Stereotypes in the area of housekeeping they are not.

Yes, but tax breaks, insurance, right to make medical decisions, etc… marriage is more than just putting on rings and saying “I Do”, it’s a massive social construct with legal implications. 

Can we not have autoplay video, pretty please? It’s frustrating as hell to track down and pause.

“[marriage is] a massive social construct with legal implications.”

And therein lies my problem with it, or more accurately the trouble one has to go through in order to change who your non-blood, legally recognised next of kin, with power of attorney is.

I also don’t like the whole tax break and financial aid aspects of that particular contract.

women marrying other women is VERY DISGUSTING.  so many LOW LIFE GARBAGE WOMEN  TODAY,  what a waste of HUMANITY.